Digital Art Zone

 
   
1 of 3
1
Pose Opinions Request
Posted: 14 August 2012 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19

I’ve been working with a posing nightmare for the last week, 4 figures all interacting with each other, and in a tight physical environment. I think I’ve finally gotten the poses into something near to a final setup, but there’s something niggling at me, and I’d appreciate a few other opinions:

Looking at the three adult figures alone and forgetting the child for the moment, does it look like the wheelchair is being lifted up the stairs, or down the stairs?

I was aiming for up, but I think it might be more convincing as down, in which case I can easily reverse the child’s facing.

Image Attachments
Position_Test.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1620
Joined  2007-12-10

Raising the nearest person’s right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. smile

But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn’t be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you’d have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

Hope this helps a bit. smile


Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost ‘walk’ the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step… hope this makes sense.

 Signature 

I’ve got nothing of my own to promote, no models, no tutorials, no website, nothin’, nada, nill, nowt.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15987
Joined  2003-10-09
TheSavage64 - 14 August 2012 08:27 AM

Raising the nearest person’s right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. smile

But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn’t be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you’d have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

Hope this helps a bit. smile


Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost ‘walk’ the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step… hope this makes sense.


I totally agree with Dave on those comments about the position of the figures. The hande side of the chair should be highest, whether going up or down a flight of stairs.  When they carried himself down the stairs in a wheenchair, last time he was rushed to hospital the strongest person had the handles and was at the top, the assistant was guiding the bottom as they went down. They reversed when getting the chair up the steps in the front garden (dual level front garden) and pulled him up the steps backward.

Edited to add this link

http://www.ehow.com/how_7434483_move-manual-wheelchair-upstairs.html

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        Neil’Vs Freebies and stuff        Autumn Bryce Rendering Challenge        September Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19
TheSavage64 - 14 August 2012 08:27 AM

Raising the nearest person’s right foot to the step above would certainly make it look more like they are going up the stairs. smile

His left foot is already on the step above the right, I might change the aspect ratio away from pure portrait to get the feet in, but they actually seem to work with either direction of movement.

But the least convincing part I find is the position of the person furthest away. You simply wouldn’t be crouching down and have your arms up like that. The weight of a person and a wheelchair would mean your arms had to be really feeling the strain and as such much straighter and hanging down. So you’d have you legs a lot straighter and be bent over at the waist with your shoulders really far forwards.

The problem with that idea is that the only place you can actually grasp the frame to lift the chair is at seat level, there’s no practical and safe way to reach that lifting point other than crouched if the chair is facing out from the stairs. If I reverse the chair, which does make it easier, then I lose the facial view of the female character, unless I reverse the camera position to the top of the stairs, and the sky view, with the Underground symbol, is an essential part of the composition.

Edited to add: Thinking about it, when people carry wheelchairs like this up stairs, they usually rest the back wheels against the stairs too so they can almost ‘walk’ the large wheels up the stairs. So it may help to have the furthest away person holding the handles of the chair the nearest person just lifting a bit for each step… hope this makes sense.

I take all your points, and thank you for them, but it’s an active user chair with a low back and no push handles - which is fairly typical for long term wheelies - and I’m trying to present the difficulty the environment creates for people. As for bumping down the stairs, that really depends on what the user can tolerate in the way of impacts, I almost certainly couldn’t tolerate it. Ideally you’d probably lift this with back out from the stairs, or from the side, but the width of the staircase makes the side carry impractical and I’ve already explained my reasons for not reversing the chair pose.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19
chohole - 14 August 2012 08:51 AM

The hande side of the chair should be highest, whether going up or down a flight of stairs.

Yes and tilted back, the principle is you should fall backwards into the stairs, rather than be tipped away from them. I suspect you’re both more familiar with the high-backed style of wheelchair, but with an active user chair there is often no frame to grip above the actual seat level, which, combined with the need for a back-straight lift, is why the upper figure is in such a seemingly exaggerated squat. The overwhelming principle in this kind of situation is to check with the wheelchair user as to what they want done and how it should be done - a couple of friends have had their chairs damaged by over-enthusiastic helpers who wouldn’t listen.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16477
Joined  2009-01-22

I understand your reason for doing this render. I’m 100% disabled and heading for the chair myself. At this time I’m still on a cane but my days are numbered and I know it. I have a major issue with the render, it’s not what would really be happening in that situation. You have two grown men helping the woman and her child. I think in real life one man would carry the woman and the other would carry the chair in this situation. Sure it would not be what you wish to portray but I think it would be truer to life that way.

Just my two cents. You did ask for them.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15987
Joined  2003-10-09

Yes I have to admit I am not certain if I have come across that sort of chair.

I admit that my disalbed friends are not always in wheelchairs. They us them when they have to, but do normally walk with crutches or walking sticks whne thye can.

Winnie is one who absolutely amazes me, she had Polio as a child, left her with her legs in calipers, and then she went down with MS as an adult. They wanted her to abort her baby, because they said she possibly wouldn’t live to be there as she grew up, but she refused totally, and she did live to see the child grow up, and I am sure a lot of that was her postive attitude, she just wasn’t going to give up.

She loved to dance, and would stand on her partners feet, to do so (she was only tiny). When she was in the wheelchair, they take turns in dancing with her in the chair, spinning it from one to the other

When her daughter was younger she would sit on her mum’s lap while the guys danced the chair around, it was wonderful to see.

I moved away and have lost touch, but I hope she is still going strong.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        Neil’Vs Freebies and stuff        Autumn Bryce Rendering Challenge        September Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 10:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19

First picture is a screen-grabbed close-up of where the lifting point at the rear of the chair is to show he really does have to be that low.

Second pic is part of the same series and gives a better view of the chair and how low the back is (to those who have it, yes the back will morph to full height and there are add on handles, but a) that would be atypical for most active user chairs and b) if you tried to lift by the handles you would likely just rip the back off)

Jaderail: yes, some people might choose to carry the user and chair separately, I have a separate image planned around that scenario.

Cho: I walk with crutches myself, though I’ll use wheelchairs at places like airports, and I have a bunch of wheelchair using friends. There’s a lot of variation in what works for people, which is why I made the note about always asking the disabled person.

Image Attachments
Close.jpgThe_Most_Accessible_Olympics_Ever_-_Text.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16477
Joined  2009-01-22

Keep up the work on enlightening people. As I said my days are numbered so it will be a personal issue for me one day also.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19

Okay, another version of the render, changed to a square aspect ratio to show the feet of the lower character.

Anyone have any thoughts on the original question of whether they’re going up or down?

Image Attachments
Position_Test_-_Square.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15987
Joined  2003-10-09

Down I think

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        Neil’Vs Freebies and stuff        Autumn Bryce Rendering Challenge        September Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16477
Joined  2009-01-22

Okay from a artist view toward the real this is what I get…. This one will always look like a down version. This is why, The man in the back would never be down like that or have his arms bent like that. He would be standing with a straight back and fully extending arms in the down position to carry all the weight of the lady and the chair that is on his arms. The man in front would be the one struggling to keep the weight from tipping to the front and causing an accident. That’s from this view.

Now if the man in back is trying to lift the bottom of the chair in a safe way to the top of the next step without damaging the chair I still think he would use the leverage of the wheels against the back of the step to ROLL the bottom up to the next level instead of a heavy dead lift as you are showing. That will mean a different pose for both men but I think it would look more realistic. I just can not buy into the “Lets Dead Weight Lift Her Up the Stairs.” thing you are doing.

If I had the chair I would do a quick example, but I do not. I do have a couple of Subway sets so that part is not a problem.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  8697
Joined  2007-11-06

Yes, I’ve moved a lot of people in wheelchairs and you’d want the large wheels on the step—less weight to support, more stable, and gives the person in the chair more feel of being grounded

 Signature 

PostgreSQL CMS FAQ

Product Updates: Non-Genesis/G2 DIM Zips starting July 2013
Non-Genesis Items with Metadata
Plugin Version Numbers for DS 4.5
Updated Genesis Products

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 August 2012 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16477
Joined  2009-01-22

Dog on it DWG!! I really want that prop. Please give me a link to it. I’ll shut up, I promise.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  787
Joined  2005-09-19

Jaderail: It’s Ob’s Lightweight Wheelchair over at Rendo: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/obs-lightweight-wheelchair/27130 (a couple of minor criticisms are 1) that the cross-bars under the seat don’t actually touch the seat if you adjust its height, and that can be obvious from lower angles, so I’ve stuck a primitive set to the frame colour in between the two and parented it to the seat, and 2) it inherits scaling if you fit it to a character, which can be a problem, so I don’t use ‘fit to’ to link them to move together, I put them both inside a null and move the null instead).

Everyone: I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring the advice saying rest the wheels on the stairs, but that’s just not practical with this design of chair. I’ve moved the chair down to stair level and screen-grabbed an image, with the chair two steps in front of M5 (1 step isn’t practical with it tilted back) the grab-rail at the back is level with his toes, and that is the highest lifting point at the rear of the chair. I don’t know about you lot, but my arms certainly aren’t long enough to lift from that level wink

I’m going to go with Cho’s feeling, which matches mine, and rotate the child to face down the stairs on the assumption they’re going down not up.

 

 

Image Attachments
Problem.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 August 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  16477
Joined  2009-01-22

Very Nice Prop. Thank you for the link. I see the problem with posing now, your way might be the only way with this item. So I’ll just say good work and keep it up.

 Signature 

Exile, Drows Walk: A Tale of Jaderail starts here. Free pulp fiction at its Fantasy best, Updated 2/3/14.
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club My stuff at DeviantArt

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1