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Luke and Laura for Genesis, Genesis Teen Renders
Posted: 13 September 2012 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]
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Colby is already in Braxton M5, but I’m going to try to update that as well with better HSS shaders, I like how Ashley and Nigels came out, so I want to roll it back to the older ones.

Nicolas and Charlie are in the forthcoming 4.5 update for Ashley M5… the hold up is my Photoshopping icon skills, they absolutely suck… so don’t be surprised if you see “Bonus” on them. wink

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Posted: 13 September 2012 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]
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Will wait to reset them then.

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Posted: 13 September 2012 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]
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I am glad this seems to be an Active Thread, which might generate some actual usable young characters and Actors. I think this is third thread I’ve seen on the search for Genesis Teens to replace Luke and Laura. It is also interesting, the same people seem to be active in each of them.

For those of you who read the She Freak and Young Teens tread, you will know I’ve been working with actual Body size data. I’ve suggested a multi-tier approach to this so we are not trying to span fourteen years with two base shapes, Child and Adult. I’ve also been playing with Thorne’s Facial Body Morphs, come up with something. I have also been looking at Evilinnocence’s Cross Dresser, to see if it can help bring some of Luke and Laura’s fashions across. That was before I got wrapped up in other tasks and I am not getting back to this one.

We are all trying to capture that wonderful awe filled gaze, whimsical expression, and carefree time of youthful life. I want to say to every one “keep up the discussion and the examples. The more examples and mixtures, the closer we will get. The nice thing about Genesis is you can dial up a character using the basic shapes, the export it to Hexagon, bring it back in as a new morph, adjust “them Bones!” and presto you have a new shaping target, that you can then refine or distort using the same basic shaping morphs you did to make the First Target. I’ve done this several times and it works Great! and you get all the Genesis poses to work with too.
(NOTE: Those wanting to know how to do this, or have tried and failed, I will be glad to share my knowledge because it is very easy, a few mouse clicks and you have a new Shaping target.)

But back to the Subject at hand: a believable Genesis Teen Actor or Shaping Target:

I’ve said this before in other threads but it bares repeating: Most of the Youth Characters I’ve seen look like Short Adults, due to the facial features or the textures used. Some of the Faces look like they are in their very early twenties or in some cases late twenties, when I think the target age is more in the mid-teens based on the body size.
If you want to know what I am talking about, take out those pictures from your youth or of your kids. Compare them to the images here. Or take out your year books and find pictures of yourself and classmates, track them through the years. You will find that refined Adult face, happens around 17 to 19, before youthful softness even holds the hard line Male Jocks. No offense to the DAZ 3D boy and Girls, but the face issue is prevalent in the mixtures they gave us for the Gen4 and Basic Child (can you say Kids 4) mixes, the Youth face morph just seems to be missing something and I’m not sure what but it is not there.

As one would only expect, Thorne’s models on the first page are a good examples of a Youthful face. Soft edges and elasticity of youth. Of course Thorne has had a little practice making all those other youthful characters. (Though they all have that Signature Thorne look, which isn’t a bad thing, there is just something about your work that makes it easy to pick out of a crowd.) And Thorne here is a product request. seeing you did so well on the Face and Body Morphs for the females, how about a set of Male Facial and Body Morphs.

DaWaterRat’s Render is very nice, young teen and the face looks youthful, for a mishmash of Genesis shapes and morphs.

I have a suggestion for all the would be Doctor Fronkensteen’s, (thank you Gene), tossing shapes into your mixing bowl: Start small and plain. You will find it is easier to add bulk then to remove it, especially in the bust, hips and thighs. It is easier to add lines to the face then to subtract them. And it is much easier to add to bust volume then to take it away. So if you give you Teen a B or C-cup getting that to an AAA-cup will be almost impossible, without it looking like they had radical Mastectomy.

The yelling commence now.
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Posted: 13 September 2012 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]
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Children are not short adults but have different proportions.

I used average age versus height data to produce the following graph. It shows both height (red) and age (blue) as a function of the “Basic Child” value.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 04:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]
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So we are all working on the same page, here are two charts and a Picture I made about three or four months ago
These are the CDC growth charts for Boy and Girls ages 2-20

The third image is a DAZ Version of the artist Scale chart, for males age 1 to Adult, using the CDC growth chart and Fire_Angel’s height measuring rulers.
Seeing Studio scale is based on Centimeters I use the 3 meter Rule from this set. The 10.5 yo Girl, on the left of this chart is an early morph target I created.

The Fourth picture is has an Actor based on Basic Child and Lisa, who I believe is my most current child character shape.
The Poses are from V4 Volleyball Poses and they are unmodified.
the Basic Child is at the Foreground and Lisa is on the other side of the net.

I have other comparative images around, I just can’t find them at the moment.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 10:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]
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Warning….. Super long post:

I am going to respond to what I’ve seen, In order, thought I did edit some quotes to pick out the parts I would respond to:
——————————————————————-
Just down loaded AdamR’s Proportion Morphs, will try them out a little later, while loading the OS on my new Workstation.
———-
I already responded about Thorne’s creation and we all seem to agree Thorne’s Teens are excellent.
And we want them and Thorne tells us they are coming ..... soon?
————
Alisa Uh-Lisa I’m glad you are not a Golden Retriever Puppy. That said how about a Genesis Dog with Look at my hair fur.
—————-

JOdel - 28 May 2012 12:05 PM

Basically we’ve got two different issues here. We’ve got filling the noticeable gaps in the age line-up of the Genesis figure, and we’ve got the porting of existing content for Genesis’s use.

I agree there are several issues here. The inclusion of the other Gen4 and Gen3 Actors into the Genesis universe, the addition of them into Auto-fit, and usable Genesis Children and Teen Shaping Targets.
On the first issue, having the remainder of the Gen3 family brought in would be great, there are some really nice things for Matt and Maddie that would be great to get updated.
On the Second issue, I’ve been playing with Cross Dresser and it gets close. If I export the item to Hexagon and put it on the Genesis Actor that has been morphed to Stephanie4 it fits great, but once Auto-fit get it’s hands on it, it seems to move the origin point. Also Auto-fit still doesn’t handle long dresses and for some reason it wants ankle length dresses to drag on the floor.
On the third point, I think to get the best scalability and look, we will need to create several character targets not just one. Baby and Toddler (Basic Child?) seem to be taken care of, though Basic Child could use some more sculpting. What is missing is the School Child Target and the Young Teen Target, both male and female. I am suggesting four because there are structural differences in the head and proportions of the bodies between these two age groups and of course girls and boys.
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DaWaterRat - 08 July 2012 11:00 AM

Here’s one I just finished, using a mishmash of morphs for Genesis (child, Basic female, Victoria 5, Aven, Stephanie 4, and Reby Sky, with breast small at 1).  I haven’t picked up Oskarson’s morphs yet.  Using the morphs, the figure was scaled down to 88%, so I had to scale her down a little more (aiming for 4’ 8, which may be a little shorter than my daughter currently)

It’s my daughter’s character for my current pirate game, and approved by her.  Like her, the character is supposed to be 12, and I would trust her to know what 12 is “supposed” to look like. smile

Oh My GAWD! What a Novel concept! How did you ever come up with the idea of getting a 12 year old to look at a character and say, “Yup looks like me and my friends.” Oh wait, you live with a twelve year old and I am guessing an artist. cheese
I said this before but that is pretty good looking young teen for just a using a mishmash of character shaping targets. But it also proves, this can be done without going out and spending thousands on a 3D sculpting tool. I won’t ask for the mixture, it is your daughters Character after all.
————
Going to Respond to several Murgatroyd posts from page 4 together.

Murgatroyd - 07 July 2012 06:13 PM

So far, I’ve only found a few problems with Oskarsson’s preteens.

First, the scale setting is simply not right.  Fortunately, it’s easy enough to change 92% to 83% (which gives a character the height of an average 12-year-old).  See attached pictures with the preteen girl next to V5.

Second, the boy head morph has the mouth slightly open.  I haven’t found a fix for this yet.

Murgatroyd - 12 July 2012 10:19 PM

This latest set is unrelated to the previous ones; I started with base Genesis and kept adding morphs until they looked right:…. The girl’s breasts are Hitomi Breasts Petite….

Actually I see quite a few off with Oskarsson’s preteens and most of them dealing with the over sized head, looks more like a toon child.
Looking at your two images, I am glad I didn’t get that set.
Conversely, your Genesis mixing clay looks much better. You are also using the same base morph sets I was and will again, after I get the last of this pesky project off my desk. When I find all my notes I’ll post my numbers for you to try. Oh and thank you for the small bust. Like I said it is easier to add bust size then to remove it and I always thought Laura was a bit busty for a preteen.
——

JOdel - 12 July 2012 11:15 PM

So. An exercise in dial spinning, but you do need to invest in a number of new dials. Still, it’s clearly doable, without needing additional programs like ZBrush. I assume that it’s possible to save the result out as a character morph that can be applied, rather than have to save the scene file for merging or to use as a starting point for building new characters?

Yes it is very “Doable” and it is one of the great things about Genesis. You can toss things into the blender and make something unique by dial spinning. I should show you my Troll Child. Now you can see why I’m politely asking Thorne, who has a little more practice then most of us, to make a set of Male morphs like his female sets, it will give us more sliders to push and prod.

Again Saving it out as a Character Shaping Target, that is pretty easy. The Great thing about that is then you can reapply some of the same morphs that you used to refine or distort the new Character.
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RCDeschene - 16 July 2012 07:38 AM

You know, I was I was looking through the Gen 4 Iconic Shapes just now and I remembered when I saw the Basic Child mixed morphs shots with the V4, M4 & S4 shapes. I’m not sure if these is supposed to be excuses not to support children-specific shaping anymore, but these are just something I thought were interesting enough to throw into this topic…

I think these were a quick mix to show the between stages were doable. I would say they were offered as a very rough starting point not as a final mix. Looking at the V4 version, the scale of the head and neck would have to be modified, like Murgatroyd did to make then look right. Also the faces just don’t seem right to me.
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Kaboom - 16 July 2012 01:13 PM

All(at least the ones I have seen) available child morphs/dials I have seen for genesis or kids4 have something about them that is not quite right. I cannot quite tell what. If I could I´d try and make my own morph. The closest I get to figuring it out is that they have a certain *sharpness* about them that makes them seem to be just a miniaturized adult.
Again, I need to state that I am looking for what might be called an idealized child/youth. Thorne’s seem to be very near to what I am looking for, though I would still want to see it as a *nude* clay render like the ones above.

These are just opinions, I wish I could do these myself, but I can´t so just trying to get my two cents to the people who can.

Kaboom: Well said. I agree there is something just not right with them. Thorne’s Face and Body Morphs do help with softening the look. The refined beauty or chiseled look of most of the Genesis models, doesn’t arrive until the end of the teen years.
As for building it yourself, it take time and pushing the sliders, the morphs are there you just have to find them and some are very subtle, but we are talking about Subtle things here. Once you get close,  you can make a shaping target, which you can them refine some more.

What is also needed is a new Youth Skin, that is not a rework of an Adult Skin. Less and softer lines in the hand joints. Look at a Child’s hands next to yours and you can see what I mean.  I am betting Thorne is using a custom skin and maybe that is why Thorne’s models look so right to our eyes.
———-

Murgatroyd - 05 August 2012 05:16 PM

Further adventures in dial-spinning.  Ages are 8, 10, and 13, with V5 for scale.

Not bad dial spinning, but 13 looks to have much older face.
———-
Thorne you are killing us, I know it has to go through QC and like Fine Wine it will be release when it is ready.
————
We are up to Page 7 if you are wondering.
——-

Murgatroyd - 11 August 2012 07:31 PM

And here are some male counterparts to my last set (with Genesis D3 for scale):

Not bad for the males and it is interesting you are using Thorne and Sickleyield’s Body morphs to slim down the Thunder Thighs of the Genesis mixing.
———-
Thank you Xena for weighing in on real clothes, and I agree there are a lot more.
———-

DaWaterRat - 19 August 2012 07:44 PM

As a mom, I can’t help myself.

Please indulge me in this quick reminder: While these scaling numbers are great starting points and “averages”,  kids are not a “size = age” situation.  Especially in the 8-18 range.  smile  My advice would be to focus more on the face morphs and getting that to look the “right” age, and use the scaling as a base to start from, not an absolute.

As an example, my daughter is, like me, on the short side.  Based on scaling Genesis to her height, she would be about 9 based on the scaling percentages Murgatroyd used.  She’s 12.  Her best friend would scale to about 14 (give or take, I don’t know exactly how tall she is)... she also is 12.  I’d be 11 or 12 based strictly on Murgatroyd’s scaling.  Needless to say, it’s been quite a while since I was 11. smile  I had to verbally smack down some kids on a field trip who were teasing another girl who is significantly shorter than my daughter about her height.  The kids I had to correct were almost all taller than I am.  They were all in my daughter’s class.

My point is not to discredit the work Murgatroyd has done, (which is great)  but simply to point out that kids the same age can come in many heights, and especially if you’re going to do a picture with several kids, you don’t need to (and probably shouldn’t) make them all the same height to be the same age.

Very, Very True, we are all Prototypes, the closest we get to mass production is twins and triplets and even they have differences. Also just like the Eyes are the window to the soul, so it is the face that people look at to tell our age. There is a host of things that can change a face prematurely into a much older face. (A very Off topic discussion.) but for the most part DWG is right, even at 6’ a twelve year old boy still looks twelve, because of his youthful face.

That is why I posted the CDC Charts and suggest using a Ruler. And because DAZ Studio uses the Metric system, lets stick with that, it is a easy conversion. your 4’8” Character is 142.24cm. but there is even more too it.
While I am around 6’4” must of my height is in my Torso, Make it very hard to buy a nice small car, cause I don’t fit. Legs and arms grow before and after the torso. and like a Puppy our hands and feet get bigger first, so they can stabilize before the rest of us grows to match them. That’s the reason at 5’3” I could palm a basketball I had HUGE hands, still do.
——-
I am going to pull a bunch of Male-M3dia’s Posts together hear and respond to them together:

Male-M3dia - 23 August 2012 07:37 AM

Was playing around with Ashley M5 and wondered if this would be something anyone would want added in an update… may add in another body shape as well.
~~~
Ashley’s strength is the fact that he isn’t a strong male character like other M5s (or the M4s which he originally came from). And also he could be used as a younger male or teen character (Brady and Danny are the youngest ones used in conjunction with “body 01 young”.. .which is scaled much shorter than M5… just change out youthful hair and clothes and you got a younger character for your renders). He also can serve as a base for younger characters by mixing other morphs in as well. I played with mixing a portion of his morphs in with child and you get a much better child character because he doesn’t have the strong facial features you get when mixing in other male characters.

Also the body shape in the render above is the “body 01 young”... took a bit to take out a lot of M5’s muscularity.
~~
Here’s a comparison with the M5 height and the body shape 7 bonus shape. From here you can further adjust the body shape and size to suit your needs. The update is packed up (for DS 4.5), just waiting on bonus icons… (if i gotta do ‘em they’re really gonna be budget-lookin’ wink )

I like Ashley, Great Character, he is in my runtime, and he has all those chiseled good looks an Action Hero needs. I got him because I needed an actor like that and he is perfect for his Short but Glorious Roll.

So let’s take a real life Movie hero, Pick a young one, who has those same good looks as Ashley. Now go find a picture of him when he was twelve. I bet he wasn’t so chiseled, cause 12 year old boys aren’t. Twelve year old boys haven’t lost all their baby fat yet and they haven’t started building serious muscle mass, because they are still Children, even though two hundred years ago a 12yo boy was considered a Man, but they really weren’t. Woman get most of their height by 14, Men keep growing some of them well into their twenties. Some go from 5’3” to 6’3” seemingly over night or Nine months.

So I would soften up the youngster, take a sander to the sharp edges, make him the gangly youth that will grow into the chiseled man and become the Action Hero, who can slay the Evil King and save the Princess. We all go through that stage let Ashley go through it too.

Westland44 - 13 September 2012 10:17 PM

Children are not short adults but have different proportions.

I used average age versus height data to produce the following graph. It shows both height (red) and age (blue) as a function of the “Basic Child” value.

Thank you Westland44 for the Chart, but like DeWaterRat said, there is no hard set formula for age/height or even weight. That is why I posted the actual CDC charts so you can see the variance in age and height and how girls differ from boys.

And that brings us up to page eleven.
Where I’ve posted Comments and images.

So to Sum up:
We all seem to be looking for the same thing, a believable set of Child/Teen Shaping targets, which we can make believable renders from.
Some of us are more experienced at modeling then the rest and some will have a Actor for sale…. “Some Day… SOON?”

Let me bring this all together, so we can all work together.

The scale of the body is one thing, but we all seem to agree that most of the child characters we have seen, just seem wrong, so some of us have started mixing up shapes ourselves in hopes to find the fountain of youth.

We all seem to agree that while the eyes are the window to the soul and expression; it is the face which is gage of age.
And most of the Genesis faces are too aged for youth renders.

Our Bodies parts grow at different rates, and just like Alisa’s adorable puppy, our hands and feet lead the charge. So the youth who will be come the Super model or Action hero will have that gangly ugly duckling stage, or they will believe they are having it. DaWaterRat’s daughter is about at that stage, where my daughter believed nothing Fits!, everything is Wrong!, and life is just going to END! grin

There are additional shaping tools out there which can be used inside DAZ Studio, without reverting to the Deformer tool or very expensive 3d sculpting programs. Partial Body Morphs like Thorne’s Facial and Body Morphs can be a wonderful help in our quest. For those looking for a Genesis/V4 solution, Thorne also makes those facial morphs for V4.

So my suggestion to you all: Go forth and push the sliders around and see what you can make. Then bring your creations back here and share. Those who do not push sliders can offer their constructive comments, both good and bad, as a way to speed the creation process.
Also lets keep this thread going, I don’t see a reason to create YAT on Genesis Children and Teens.

Having lived with six artists in my lifetime I have learn several things. One: everyone is an artist is some manner; Two: inside every artist is an art critic; and Three: You don’t need to be an Artist to know what is Truly Ugly or Just not right.

So my fellow Fronkensteens, Go froth, Push thy sliders for only you can say, “It’s Alive!” grin

Haslor
Renders with Slider Numbers as soon as I have them.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]
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Haslor - 14 September 2012 10:34 AM

I like Ashley, Great Character, he is in my runtime, and he has all those chiseled good looks an Action Hero needs. I got him because I needed an actor like that and he is perfect for his Short but Glorious Roll.

So let’s take a real life Movie hero, Pick a young one, who has those same good looks as Ashley. Now go find a picture of him when he was twelve. I bet he wasn’t so chiseled, cause 12 year old boys aren’t. Twelve year old boys haven’t lost all their baby fat yet and they haven’t started building serious muscle mass, because they are still Children, even though two hundred years ago a 12yo boy was considered a Man, but they really weren’t. Woman get most of their height by 14, Men keep growing some of them well into their twenties. Some go from 5’3” to 6’3” seemingly over night or Nine months.

So I would soften up the youngster, take a sander to the sharp edges, make him the gangly youth that will grow into the chiseled man and become the Action Hero, who can slay the Evil King and save the Princess. We all go through that stage let Ashley go through it too.
.

Ok, this really riled me. I’m doing a free update just to give you something to work with and you’re offering suggestions? 1) Sorry, I’m not doing all that and 2) I could really go into the reasons, but you’re hardly the authority on this. Just because you have charts doesn’t instantly make you an authority to make this huge, unnecessary post.

I really almost pulled the morphs back out because of this. I’m generally don’t do younger morphs, but I included them with the M5 product knowing that there are tradeoffs involved. But they’re there because because of the rigging, they’ll be better supported in products rather than a custom rigging or, there won’t be many issue with clothes fits because they’re based of the m5 shape. However, you have to be careful with the shapes because you can mess up the blending with other morphs… which you may find with these. Because of the time restraints I have, I added something that could work well with the general package. That’s what I factored in when I put them together; and perhaps you may want to actually put away the charts and work with the actual mesh to know what it does per character before offering suggestions.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]
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Actually, from what I can see, the new younger Ashley’s physique resembles mine at that age, especially in the arms. Where there were “sharp edges” and muscle definition it was due to a lack of fat rather than a buildup of muscle mass. I was always a skinny kid, and lost most of my baby fat (except in the face) when I was quite young. Every kid looks different…some body types might be harder to re-create using existing tools than others.

Given that he’s an M5 character I think it’s remarkable how young Ashley can be.

Male-M3dia, I suspect that Haslor’s charts and suggestions were aimed more at the end users of your products than at you (and I do think they’ll be helpful, so thanks Haslor), but if I were in your shoes that probably would have annoyed me too…

Oh…and for the record, if I’m going to be getting a nice free update for this or any product, “budget-lookin’” icons wouldn’t bug me one bit. wink

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Posted: 14 September 2012 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]
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Very well said.

I suddenly had a thought regarding Thorne’s teens.

Thorne has already said that they were slated to be DAZ Originals. And that, ergo; when they come out is up to DAZ. So let’s think about that and what that could mean.

Now, it *could* mean nothing. That when DAZ is no longer jugging a major event like the PA sale, or the PC Anniversary (next month), they will just quietly turn them loose, as they did Adam Thwaite’s Genesis Baby.

Or… what if it means “Official DAZ Young Teen Figures”?

We haven’t had a set of those since Gen3. And a LOT of people think that it is overdue. DAZ does watch the forums. They *know* that people have been grousing ever since they announced that Luke and Laura were not going to be upgraded to Gen4. (And in retrospect, when that announcement was made Genesis was probably already in the planning stages, at least.) It may not be as big a potential market as Pin-up figures, but it’s bigger than the market for a baby.

I’m talking about a major character rollout. Base set, Starter pack, and Pro pack. And that means there must be a lot of secondary content ducks to get into a row, as well as the base figures. And I doubt that they’d hide a major rollout in the middle of a PA sale. PC Anniversary month is a possibility, since not everyone belongs to the PC. And we don’t know what they may have planned for November.

Every major rollout that’s come out since I wandered in has included at least four outfits, two hairs, two additional characters, and two to five pose packs. The starter packs may not have contained all of it, but it was all available. The Kids4 Pro pack included, the Base, the Morphs++ set, the Toddler morph, four hairs, five characters, six outfits, and four pose packs. Stephanie 5’s Pro pack contained The Base figure, the gens figure, three hairs, four outfits, two characters, and two pose packs.

We could be dealing with something more than just Thorne’s teens. Or, as I say, possibly not.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]
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JOdel - 14 September 2012 11:45 AM

Very well said.

I suddenly had a thought regarding Thorne’s teens.

Thorne has already said that they were slated to be DAZ Originals. And that, ergo; when they come out is up to DAZ. So let’s think about that and what that could mean.

Now, it *could* mean nothing. That when DAZ is no longer jugging a major event like the PA sale, or the PC Anniversary (next month), they will just quietly turn them loose, as they did Adam Thwaite’s Genesis Baby.

Or… what if it means “Official DAZ Young Teen Figures”?

We haven’t had a set of those since Gen3. And a LOT of people think that it is overdue. DAZ does watch the forums. They *know* that people have been grousing ever since they announced that Luke and Laura were not going to be upgraded to Gen4. (And in retrospect, when that announcement was made Genesis was probably already in the planning stages, at least.) It may not be as big a potential market as Pin-up figures, but it’s bigger than the market for a baby.

I’m talking about a major character rollout. Base set, Starter pack, and Pro pack. And that means there must be a lot of secondary content ducks to get into a row, as well as the base figures. And I doubt that they’d hide a major rollout in the middle of a PA sale. PC Anniversary month is a possibility, since not everyone belongs to the PC. And we don’t know what they may have planned for November.

Every major rollout that’s come out since I wandered in has included at least four outfits, two hairs, two additional characters, and two to five pose packs. The starter packs may not have contained all of it, but it was all available. The Kids4 Pro pack included, the Base, the Morphs++ set, the Toddler morph, four hairs, five characters, six outfits, and four pose packs. Stephanie 5’s Pro pack contained The Base figure, the gens figure, three hairs, four outfits, two characters, and two pose packs.

We could be dealing with something more than just Thorne’s teens. Or, as I say, possibly not.

Now that- I have been saying ever since Thornes announcement! cheese I totally agree with you. Daz surely wouldn’t hold off the release of her great product for no good reason!

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Posted: 14 September 2012 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]
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Scott-Livingston - 14 September 2012 11:39 AM

Actually, from what I can see, the new younger Ashley’s physique resembles mine at that age, especially in the arms. Where there were “sharp edges” and muscle definition it was due to a lack of fat rather than a buildup of muscle mass. I was always a skinny kid, and lost most of my baby fat (except in the face) when I was quite young. Every kid looks different…some body types might be harder to re-create using existing tools than others.

Given that he’s an M5 character I think it’s remarkable how young Ashley can be.

Male-M3dia, I suspect that Haslor’s charts and suggestions were aimed more at the end users of your products than at you (and I do think they’ll be helpful, so thanks Haslor), but if I were in your shoes that probably would have annoyed me too…

Oh…and for the record, if I’m going to be getting a nice free update for this or any product, “budget-lookin’” icons wouldn’t bug me one bit. wink

Well said!

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Posted: 14 September 2012 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]
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The CDC charts http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/clinical_charts.htm  contain an inconveniently large amount of information for easy use. Fortunately, there is an easy way of simplifying some of the data. The percentile values show much less spread if they are scaled by expressing them as a percentage of the value for a 20 year old of the same percentile.  This is shown in the attached figures.

Also, boys and girls are rather similar in their size and proportions until puberty.

Girls stop growing taller earlier than boys.

The CDC charts only apply to the USA. Care is needed if applying them to other nations.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]
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Westland44 - 13 September 2012 10:17 PM

Children are not short adults but have different proportions.

I used average age versus height data to produce the following graph. It shows both height (red) and age (blue) as a function of the “Basic Child” value.

And age versus head size would give a different curve. (As would leg length, arm length, chest size, etc, etc….)  That’s a large part of why I cringe at the suggestion of using Basic Child for scaling.

Haslor - 13 September 2012 06:22 PM

I have a suggestion for all the would be Doctor Fronkensteen’s, (thank you Gene), tossing shapes into your mixing bowl: Start small and plain. You will find it is easier to add bulk then to remove it, especially in the bust, hips and thighs. It is easier to add lines to the face then to subtract them.

This is why I’ve been starting from base Genesis, rather than any of the existing shapes.  I’m in awe of Male-M3dia’s skill in working down from M5.

And it is much easier to add to bust volume then to take it away. So if you give you Teen a B or C-cup getting that to an AAA-cup will be almost impossible, without it looking like they had radical Mastectomy.

An additional thought on bust: it’s not just about volume.  A developing adolescent girl who’s just reached an A-cup on her way to larger sizes will have a very different shape from a full-grown woman with an A-cup, and neither will be particularly close to what you get with small values on a morph designed to make large breasts.  None of the morphs I’ve been able to find are really satisfactory for young teens (Hitomi Petite comes closest).  I’ve used D-Formers to blunder my way to a few that I don’t think look too bad, but I’m still working on figuring out what I’m doing.

Haslor - 14 September 2012 10:34 AM

Not bad for the males and it is interesting you are using Thorne and Sickleyield’s Body morphs to slim down the Thunder Thighs of the Genesis mixing.

Or, as I kept thinking of them until I found the right combination, Those Damn Hips.

That is why I posted the CDC Charts and suggest using a Ruler. And because DAZ Studio uses the Metric system, lets stick with that, it is a easy conversion. your 4’8” Character is 142.24cm. but there is even more too it.
While I am around 6’4” must of my height is in my Torso, Make it very hard to buy a nice small car, cause I don’t fit. Legs and arms grow before and after the torso. and like a Puppy our hands and feet get bigger first, so they can stabilize before the rest of us grows to match them. That’s the reason at 5’3” I could palm a basketball I had HUGE hands, still do.

Hand and foot scaling is one of the things I’m still having trouble with.  Any suggestions for reference material?

Westland44 - 14 September 2012 06:23 PM

The CDC charts http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/clinical_charts.htm  contain an inconveniently large amount of information for easy use.

I’ve found them very convenient, but I was a math major.  Getting what I want from that sort of graph is almost instinctive for me.

Also, boys and girls are rather similar in their size and proportions until puberty.

A fact I’ve taken advantage of.  The only differences between the 8 year olds in my boys and girls sets are skin, hair, and clothing.  The 10 year olds only differ by small values on a couple of morph dials.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]
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...when I developed my teen and child characters, I never really bothered with using statistical charts, I just kept pushing the morphs and scaling until I was able to achieve the desired results.

If I were creating images for anatomical/medical reference, yeah, I can see dealing with charts and statistics as being important.  However I am not, so for me the “eye” is more important than mere numbers. Yes it may take a bit longer at the outset, but I feel the end result to be more “personable” as the process also involves developing the personality of the character as well.

Below is a link to a post in the archived “Little Vicky” thread which illustrates just how far I pushed this process, effectively creating a 7 - 8 year old without scripting custom morphs of my own.

Leela Child


The character is based only on V4 and Thorne’s Tommi and was created in Studio 2.3.3 (so the clothing fits were a real pain).

Unfortunately the original character was lost when I had a HD go south on me.

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Posted: 14 September 2012 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]
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And it is much easier to add to bust volume then to take it away. So if you give you Teen a B or C-cup getting that to an AAA-cup will be almost impossible, without it looking like they had radical Mastectomy.

An additional thought on bust: it’s not just about volume.  A developing adolescent girl who’s just reached an A-cup on her way to larger sizes will have a very different shape from a full-grown woman with an A-cup, and neither will be particularly close to what you get with small values on a morph designed to make large breasts.  None of the morphs I’ve been able to find are really satisfactory for young teens (Hitomi Petite comes closest).  I’ve used D-Formers to blunder my way to a few that I don’t think look too bad, but I’m still working on figuring out what I’m doing.

  I agree, a young bust is like a seed and it expands from the center. We might actually have to make a partial body morph to represent it properly.
-

Haslor - 14 September 2012 10:34 AM

Not bad for the males and it is interesting you are using Thorne and Sickleyield’s Body morphs to slim down the Thunder Thighs of the Genesis mixing.

Or, as I kept thinking of them until I found the right combination, Those Damn Hips.

I actually used the Emaciated body to thin everything down, made a Shaping target of the emaciated child, and then added to that.
-

That is why I posted the CDC Charts and suggest using a Ruler. And because DAZ Studio uses the Metric system, lets stick with that, it is a easy conversion. your 4’8” Character is 142.24cm. but there is even more too it.
While I am around 6’4” must of my height is in my Torso, Make it very hard to buy a nice small car, cause I don’t fit. Legs and arms grow before and after the torso. and like a Puppy our hands and feet get bigger first, so they can stabilize before the rest of us grows to match them. That’s the reason at 5’3” I could palm a basketball I had HUGE hands, still do.

Hand and foot scaling is one of the things I’m still having trouble with.  Any suggestions for reference material?

This one is hard, because you have to think about how big the child would be as an adult.
I remember seeing a list of Odd body facts I will see if I can find it again.
-

Also, boys and girls are rather similar in their size and proportions until puberty.

A fact I’ve taken advantage of.  The only differences between the 8 year olds in my boys and girls sets are skin, hair, and clothing.  The 10 year olds only differ by small values on a couple of morph dials.

While this is true for the body in the School age Children (6-9), during that same time faces start to take on Masculine and Feminine traits. This is why I suggested we make several Shaping targets, not just one.
———
One of the things I I have notice about most of the young Character’s, we have seen here, is they all seem to have Western European origins. Our world awash with a bright variety of colors, shapes and sizes. At some point we should see if what we created holds up when we introduce is ethnics and culture.
This may be a much larger project, seeing there are many ethnic and cultural body and facial traits.
For some of these some of the work has been done, as there are several Ethnic PBM and FBM packages.
DAZ 3D has the Ethnicity for Genesis Bundle which is Asian, African and Native American
Sickleyield has SF Multiplicity for Genesis, SF Variety for Genesis, & Diversity for Genesis, which represent about 12 or 16 ethnic groups.
Fusing has the FSL Epic Genesis which is a Fantasy Ethnic package.

Haslor

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