texture dead end help needed

protovuprotovu Posts: 117
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Hello,
I need help texturing Michael4 in Carrara 8 pro in a very specific way. I need him to have a seamless grid on him which resides either:
seamlessly within existing shading domains
or
find a correctly flattened shading domain and texture map which will allow me to do this. Attached is a file which shows how close/far I am from achieving this goal. You will see that the transition from hips to torso, is ok, but the hips to legs is a disaster. I have tried various different
grids ( within texture mapping and tiling ) to try to smooth these bad seams, but nothing is working. Can someone direct me to the promised land on this? Thank you,
Rick

texturegridforM.jpg
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Comments

  • tezentezen Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hello protovu!

    That´s an UV-Layout-Problem (off course - it´s a nice UV) which couldn´t be solved inside Carrara.
    But here some workarounds:

    - You could use "Photoshops" Liquid-Brush or other things to tweak it manually.

    - Maybe you could built your own UV-Map inside "DAZstudio" or "C8.5Beta" or any other tool?! Within "UV-Mapper" you could swap UV-Maps of an object.

    - The easieast way I think of is using "ZBrush4R4": Import that figure, Clone it, Subdivide it a few times, Push the button which will save the details and level it to subdivsion 0, QRemesh that clone in your wanted style, UV-Map it via UV-Master, reproject details, "Flatten" it (=show UV-Layout), Screenshot that and apply it as a texture onto the clone, Smooth the clone ~4 times, Polypaint from texture, ... and project the clone onto the original figure (and original UV) via ZSphere-Retopo or projection, ...make a texture out of that polypaint and: Voilá! ...think that this is working within the trial-version of that software. But if you ever tested it you will hate it (because of the alien-UI) or buy it (because of the alien-UI). It´s every penny worth and Pixologic didn´t charge for updates.

    Happy 3Ding!
    tezen

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Hi Tezen,
    Thank you for your prompt, comprehensive reply.

    The Photo shop way might work, but it would be labor intensive, not perfect, and not usable in animations.

    Is there a reason you prefer C8.5 beta over C8 regarding building my own UV map? I have not gotten to the Beta yet. Been put off by some of the reviews.

    The easiest way you mention seems pretty involved. You feel it would be easier than building a new map in C8 or C8.5beta?

    thank you

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    Carrara's not my thing, so I'm going to come at it through the maths/topology. You can't map a flat square grid onto a complexly curved surface without the effects you are seeing, the only way to get a seamless grid is for each four-sided figure to be anything but square with each side varying in both length and angle with its neighbours. Just think of the difference between the top of the thigh and the ankle, one is three or four times larger in diameter than the other. If you have the same number of four sided figures going around each, then clearly the size must be varying. If they merge smoothly into one-another from ankle to thigh, then clearly the angles and lengths of the sides must be varying continuously all the way up the leg as its shape and size vary.

    You could project a grid onto the surface - literally imagining light shining through a mesh onto the body and then marking off the shape of the shadows, but that's a completely different mathematical transform than wrapping a plane around the shape.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Again, Tezen,
    I completely agree with the logic you have indicated, but attached image shows that C8 is capable of doing what I desire.

    The represented shape is basically like an arm or leg; that is, descending in diameter and polygon count as it narrows. You will see that it is behaving fairly well. Within the image is the shading domain seam of issue on the M4 model. You will note that it is not that bad.

    So it seems to me that the problem C is having is not with the projection mapping, per se, but with the seams where the shading domains
    meet. Again, leg/ foot, and torso/hip are good. The leg to hip seam is the problem. Arms to torso also bad.

    Thank you again for you in depth replies. Very much appreciated.

    texturegridforM2.jpg
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  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,370
    edited August 2012

    you could try changing the uv mapping, this is planar split by orientation along the y axis, gets curved lines on hips etc depending which way you orientate it.

    Untitled.jpg
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    Doc3.jpg
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    Post edited by JaguarElla on
  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Hi Wendy,
    Thank you for jumping in. Your suggestion was my first course of action. It is pretty good, but the side views......not so great. The next thing
    I tried was adding the leg shading domain to the hip shading domain. This might be a possible route, but I am finding that moving the vertexes to merge at the errant seams is extremely cumbersome. Could take days to get it right. The number of vertexes seems correct, but
    sizing, placement, and angle....not good.
    Thanks again

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    also, thank you for taking the time to put the tutorial together.

  • RoguePilotRoguePilot Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Does it have to be that exact grid?

    If not, why not just export the UV grid from the UVmapper. The lines will match exactly by default anyway.

    If that grid is too dense then simply delete every other line. You can also go over it with line tool in your painting app. The only parts to be careful not to change are the transitions between maps.

    OR

    (a favourite technique for building my custom textures available on shareCG ;) )
    Use the 3d paint tool to draw in just the lines across the seams (black line tool against white texture) and then build your grid around them.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Hi Rogue Pilot,
    Thank you for jumping in.
    It does not have to be precisely that grid, but I would like something close. The size of the squares could be an issue. Odd shaped
    polys would also be an issue, so the UV grid, aside from being too dense, would be difficult to edit in a paint program.

    Deleting lines from the grid would be a huge task.

    I will look into your 3D painting idea, but I worry about precise spacing.

    I have tried exporting the UV grid into my illustration program, and then trying to overlay a vector grid on top of it seems like it should work, but getting the leg/hip lines to match up is proving quite difficult.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited August 2012

    I believe, though I don't profess to have even the slightest veneer of knowledge on the subject, that if you get the UV template for the character it will give you the guide you need for exact matches. I believe it is basically a jpg image of the mesh itself, so you'll be able to line up your grid with it. Though no matter how you do it I don't think it's gonna be easy. I don't think they line up the UV mapping so that you can just plop down a grid and get it to match. It's gonna be some work.


    As the first bit of work will be actually finding the UV template. DAZ has the website so screwed up right now that finding the base M4 character page might be impossible. But I recall that's where you get the templates, on the character's page. Not as part of the download. On the order page. Makes sense, right?


    Anyway, another thing that came to me is that there might be a texture somewhere in your libraries that you might be able to modify and use, something that has the matching already done. Not sure what that might be for M4, but with V4 there might be something like a fishnet outfit that is already matched. Or maybe use the UV template itself and modify it to make your grid. Just a thought....

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Hi JM,
    I will see if I can find what you are referring to, though I am not sure how it would differ from what is native. Regarding the hip/leg mis alignment, for example: if I make the current leg shading domain part of the hip shading domain, the problem of lining up the seams
    is really difficult. I would imagine that the template, by definition would follow this scheme, no?

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Hi JM,
    I will see if I can find what you are referring to, though I am not sure how it would differ from what is native. Regarding the hip/leg mis alignment, for example: if I make the current leg shading domain part of the hip shading domain, the problem of lining up the seams
    is really difficult. I would imagine that the template, by definition would follow this scheme, no?


    I'm really not sure what you're getting at. The template is, I believe, just an image of the mapped mesh for the particular shading domains, much like what you see when you bring the mesh into the UV editor in the modelling room. Having that just saves you a few steps. There's nothing "non native" about it. It IS the UV mapped mesh.


    Shading domains make no difference. Your issue is a matter of UV mapping. The character has a UV map, and unless you want to re-map it, you have to use what exists. Which means you have to modify your texture to fit the existing mapping. No way around it that I know of. Except, like I say, use a texture that has already been worked, which is the approach I'd take. Run the UV template thru Photoshop and modify to come up with the grid texture you want.


    Otherwise it's gonna be a lot of work. I may be wrong, but I don't think you're gonna find a nice easy way to do this, other than finding an existing texture you can modify. But don't discard a whole list of solutions in search of an easy one, because you may never find an easy one.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Actually, I think we agree. The problem is in the existing map - which I refer to as native . To achieve what I am after, as you are saying, I would need to create a new UV map. I refer to the shading domains, because while they are obviously correct for M4's skin maps, there was some resizing done between legs and hip, and the unwrapping scheme was somewhat different between them. Maybe this was done to fit all of the maps into a nice square? I bet if the UV's had been unwrapped to scale, there would be no problem...who knows.

    the main idea here.....lots of work, unless someone is out there with an alternative.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Actually, I think we agree. The problem is in the existing map - which I refer to as native . To achieve what I am after, as you are saying, I would need to create a new UV map. .


    Well, that's only part of what I'm saying. The more important part is that I'm suggesting that you use the UV mapping in the way it was designed. It's analagous to how clothing is designed using patterns. You take the pattern (similar to the image of the UV mesh mapping...call it a template, or UV projection, or whatever you want...) and arrange the material/fabric of the clothing (similar to the texture image) underneath the UV projection so that it will appear the way you want when you sew it together. Really the process is no different.


    So I'm suggesting that you take the UV projection image, and underneath it you arrange the texture so it will line up on the final character. Which means you make a couple of layers in PShop (or whatever), then cut/scale/rotate sections of the grid texture that you want underneath the UV projection so that it lines up. Really not a lot of work, and ultimately what UV mapping is designed for in the first place. It's pretty much the basics of doing UV mapping, but in your case you want a bit more accuracy than in most cases. But the procedure is the same.

  • RoguePilotRoguePilot Posts: 0
    edited August 2012

    Your overcomplicating things.
    The UV Template will be what is exported from the UVmapper (any mapper) for each map (3 in total; torso, head and limbs).
    What you want is for the seams to match between maps. The absolute best way to do this is to use the 3d paint tool to draw reference marks over the seam between maps for your gridlines.

    Then using the reference and the uvtemplate as semitransparent layers in photoshop you can construct your grid. The only thing you must do is make sure that your gridlines intersect the seam references exactly, beyond those points the grid is at your discretion.
    You actually seem to have most of the grid already made up, all you really need to do is align the seams by a little warping and rotating.

    You could do this entirely in 3dpaint and then simply tidy up in photoshop, it's easier than you think.

    (sorry Joe, just noticed you'd already said most of that)

    Just posted a quick image (I'm putting a Shatner skin texture together at the moment so he was convenient) showing how you can get perfect seam references in the paint tool. You can be more accurate if you load M4 up in a 'small' scene.

    Image2.jpg
    800 x 796 - 107K
    Post edited by RoguePilot on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    3D painting is a nice way to do it.


    Though keep in mind that depending upon the configuration of the mesh on either side of the seam you may be able to deduce which polys line up using only the UV template, and do it all in PShop. Hmm...seven squares from the edge on both sides of the seam, looks like it matches up, put a reference marker, then do a quick texture reload in Carrara and see it update right away.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    You'r not maybe looking for something like this? 4K LOD map - you can get more or less detail, depending on which map you use - pretty simple method, without leaving Carrara. You can change colours if you need.

    m4map.jpg
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  • tezentezen Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hello Protovu!
    There are many ways to Rome and I think you found one.
    Sorry that I didn´t wrote you back because there was no time!
    Greetings
    tezen

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Thank you All,
    What a pleasure to have such smart people in one's corner. As soon as I get a chance, I will attempt the 3D paint hash marks technique suggested by RoguePilot.
    On the 4K LOD map per Roygee: you are not showing a low poly Michael, but simply exporting a low vertex LOD from the hight poly Michael?
    I have not used the LOD function yet..........only been using Carrara since, well, Raydream ( just dated myself).

    May not get to trying this for a bit, but I will post any successes I have with this.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    What I did was take the UV map of the low-poly version and used that as a texture on the high poly version

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Hi Roygee,
    Could I trouble you to point me to accessing the low poly model and its UV map? Maybe I already have it somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.
    Thanks

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    Hi protovu

    Yours may not be in the same location as mine because I did some re-organizing. You may not even have it as it was a separate download some time ago - maybe still free?

    Mine is in C:\My documents\Daz 3D\Studio\My Library\Runtime\Geometries\Daz People\blMilMan_m4b_LOD

    You access the UV maps by importing the .obj to Carrara, taking it into the vertex modelling room, selecting UV mode and exporting each map, one at a time - deselect "Show all". Save them somewhere away from where the figure is stored!

    You can then change colour or whatever in a 2d paint app.

    Delete the low-poly figure and load M4 from the browser. Substitute the default textures with the new maps by loading them in the materials room.

    Using the lowest 1K version gives a really fun finish - looks like he's been scribbled over with a marker pen.:-)

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what you guys are talking about...

    He wanted to apply a particular grid texture to full resolution M4. And you're suggesting he somehow use a UV map image from a low detail version of M4, but I'm not sure why. How will that help him to map his grid texture on M4??

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    I guess it's all about freedom of expression, choices, the right to change minds, try something different?

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    I guess it's all about freedom of expression, choices, the right to change minds, try something different?


    Right....

    Too bad he'll never learn how to line up UV maps. It's a really important skill to learn. And ultimately give him a LOT more freedom of expression.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 117
    edited December 1969

    Thank you, Roygee.
    I found the blMilMan_m4b_LOD file.
    This looks like it could be the ticket. Looking forward to giving it a go. What a clever work around!
    Really, you gave me what I was after; specifically, a UV map which is manageable.

    I will post any successes ....

    Best regards

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    Happy to have helped - looking forward to the result

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,399
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Really, you gave me what I was after; specifically, a UV map which is manageable.

    So that's all you wanted??? Why didn't you ask for that in the first place, we could have saved you (and us) a lot of time?

    Arggh.......

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,872
    edited December 1969

    Nice suggestion Roygee.
    I have blacksmith paint. Good for painting across texture boundaries seamlessly.
    Sorry if someone else has suggested this...
    I was asleep ... ;)

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 1,885
    edited December 1969

    Hi head wax :-)

    I used to use Blacksmith Paint until the 3D paint in Carrara got jacked up - it would certainly produce better results than painting in Carrara because it makes an atlas UV map, so the paint doesn't tend to try and follow the lines of the original UV mapping. I'm surprised that Carrara doesn't offer this facility to go with 3D painting.

    I've tried 3D painting a grid on M4, one shading domain at a time - can certainly match up the lines and the vertical stripes are straight, but the horizontal ones are jagged - used a 0.01 brush. Then there is the challenge of getting the lines to match all around the figure and you'd need a very good eye for proportions to get the spacing on the grid spot-on.

    Also tried drawing the grid on an M4 template - probably can be done, but you'd have to be a genius and draw curved lines to make the lines come out straight on the figure. For instance, the seam for the torso is down the middle of the back and has a lot of curves - you'd need to draw two matching, curvy lines to make a line straight down the back.

    I guess you could lay out the UV mapping differently, stitching it all together to make a new template - but that would be way more work than it's worth.

    Cheers

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