Digital Art Zone

Joe

In the future, if you don’t know what you’re talking about, then at least admit it instead of trying to throw a bunch of unrelated nonsense at the argument and hoping something will stick.

You asked,.. why it was a grey legal area, I gave you an explanation, which you didn’t understand, I explained the concept of “terms of sale” to you, ...which you didn’t understand.

I’ve explained clearly why I wrote, what I wrote. and provided an explanation of the universal legal principles behind it.

I’ve tried to be a clear as possible, and provide you with simple “real world” examples,.
I can’t make it any clearer.

Now you suggest that I’m intentionally fabricating information, to try to defend a statement which I either knew was wrong at the time,. or now know was wrong but am somehow unwilling to retract.

I have many years of retail / wholesale experience, including dealing with trade internationally.
I do know what I’m talking about,.
the statement I made was TRUE, and I believe that I’ve answered your question clearly, and completely.

please do not accuse me of deliberately fabricating false information again.

Andy, I know you are convinced that you’re an expert in this, but you’re not. However, you refuse to accept that fact.

Let me give you some clear reasons why what you are saying is just nonsense, and has nothing to do with the real world.

First, you are focusing on “terms of sale”. You seem to think that applies, in some way, to our discussion. It doesn’t. And here’s why:

DAZ doesn’t SELL its software to you. No software company in their right mind SELLS their software to you. They provide you with a very limited LICENSE to USE their software, but only if you follow their rules for usage. And those rules are clearly outlined in their License Agreements. That is why DAZ doesn’t provide you with a Terms of Sale agreement. They don’t SELL you anything. Companies that sell you stuff, where they actually transfer ownership of a product to you, develop Terms of Sale agreements. And those agreements define stuff like shipping terms, and define risks and fees, etc., associated with the physical transfer of the products as well as transfer of ownership. So all of your discussion of “Terms of Sale” does not apply.

And also note that the License Agreement states: “This License is the entire agreement between DAZ3D and the User, superseding any other agreement or discussions, oral or written, and may not be changed except by a signed agreement.”

That’s why all of your talk of Terms of Sale and signage and product placement and cans of beans, etc., is just plain nonsense. THERE IS NO OTHER AGREEMENT, and nothing about product placement or signage or any of that other stuff you mentioned makes any sense whatsoever.

DAZ provides a License Agreement. And you should read it sometime. It’s no different from what most other software companies provide. And it says stuff like “...and we grant the user a license to use the Product in accordance with the terms of this License.” And it also defines the stuff you CAN’T do with the software, which you otherwise could do IF they had sold it to you. You don’t own the code, and can’t, for example, reverse engineer it.

And it also defines, in BOLD text, the fact that they are providing the code AS IS, and no matter what state the code is in (alpha, beta, final, whatever), DAZ is not responsible for errors:

“EXCEPT FOR THE EXPRESS WARRANTY ABOVE , THE PRODUCT IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS, WITHOUT ANY OTHER WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABLE QUALITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR THOSE ARISING BY LAW, STATUTE, USAGE OF TRADE, COURSE OF DEALING OR OTHERWISE”

You talk about “fitness for purpose”, and clearly that’s nonsense. DAZ specifically states they make no warranties on ‘...fitness for a particular purpose’. Or ‘satisfactory quality’. Or any other warranty.

Now, you also seem convinced about some strange “grey legal area”, which I explained does not exist. But apparently you’re convinced you’re an expert, and that there’s some “grey area” involved if DAZ decides to charge for a beta version. And then you go into this rambling discussion about DAZ not providing some clear agreement on how someone gets the final version. And honestly I have no clue what point you’re trying to make.

DAZ provides their license for software that is “AS IS”. There are NO GUARANTEES about future software or upgrades. DAZ has no obligation about future upgrades. But for some reason you seem to think they do. But you can’t provide any reason for that, other than something about cans of beans. 

Andy, we can go on and on with this, and I can give you a lot more reasons why what you’re saying is nonsense. But I know that you will never back down, in spite of the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ll keep coming up with unrelated and irrational discussions in an attempt to sound like you’re right. But instead of doing that, I suggest you actually study the subject and learn something, instead of convincing yourself that you’re an expert based on what is apparently some extremely limited experience and/or knowledge.

And you might want to start by reading some License Agreements. And then read some Terms of Sale from some companies that actually sell products. And then you might even take a look at what’s called the Uniform Commercial Code. And since you fancy yourself an expert on international trade, take a look at the “United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods”. Some of it is boring legal stuff, but some of it is kind of interesting.

And by the way, Andy, the License Agreement is very, very clear that in order for you to be granted a license to use the software, you must give your UNCONDITIONAL agreement to all of the terms of the License Agreement. And if you can’t agree with all of the terms, then it states:

“IF YOU DO NOT AGREE OR DO NOT WISH TO BIND YOURSELF OR THE ENTITY YOU REPRESENT: (A) DO NOT INSTALL, UPLOAD, ACCESS, OR OTHERWISE COPY OR USE THE SOFTWARE…”

So if you think DAZ should be providing some sort of warranty on fitness for purpose or upgrade paths or whatever, and the agreement says they don’t provide any such warranties, then maybe you shouldn’t be using the software…...

Can we please try to be civil, and keep the thread on topic without the personal attacks.

chohole - 18 November 2012 03:41 PM

Can we please try to be civil, and keep the thread on topic without the personal attacks.

Yes. I apologize to Andy and everyone for getting personal. It was stupid.

HI Joe
I can see where there’s a misunderstanding now.

The End User licence agreement (EULA) defines the rights and limits of the ownership and usage of the digital media or assets.

It’s part of the “product” you’ve purchased, ..It;s the Licence to use the Digital part of the product, EG the models or software.
As is part of every product installer, which you need to read, and accept, before you can install the Digital media or software.

So, you’re paying money (electronically)  for that (Digital) product, and the licence to possess it, and use it, under the terms of the licence agreement.

So,.. Daz3D “Sell” you the Complete Product.
that’s how they make money, and all other software retailers “Sell” you products, either digital, or physical, and if they’re physical products,. then there would be shipping and handling concerns,. which is not relevant here ,..and not part of any terms of sale unless shipping and handling costs, are offered as part of the “product”.

The EULA does not define which specific product you’ve purchased, or for what price.

that’‘s defined in the way the product is offered you for sale.

When you go to the store,. you’re presented with the images of the product ,  a description of the product , and the price.

The product description was Carrara 8.5 beta.  But .. Which version ? .. do I get a Full PRO serial number. ?
that wasn’t clear,

The content’s of what was being offered for sale was unclear,..
Q: Does it include the Carrara Native Content, and all the C8 Pro Bundle software ?

As the product was clearly being sold as a Beta version,.. but was presumably still in development,..
What happens with this version I’m buying now, when the serial number expires, or the next beta version is released ?

those terms were not clear,. at the point of sale. (checkout)

The terms of sale,  ,,,,What product is being offered to me, for sale, and at what price,

As for Product upgrades and updates, Daz3D are exceptional in allowing access to your purchase history to re-download the latest version of a product you’ve previously purchased, and at no additional cost.

That highlight the first part of the agreement you quoted,

“This License is the entire agreement between DAZ3D and the User, superseding any other agreement or discussions, oral or written, and may not be changed except by a signed agreement.”

If you’re re-downloading the latest version of a product you’ve previously purchased,. then the Licence you’re agreeing to NOW,.. supersedes that original “older” licence.

..and we grant the user a license to use the Product in accordance with the terms of this License.”

If you agree and follow the terms,.. the licence is valid,.
if you do not agree, or otherwise break the terms,.. the licence is no longer valid.

the Warranty exceptions to liability for Daz3D are common to all licence agreements. but obviously differently worded for each company or purpose.

I’m in no way suggesting that any company or individual on this planet or any other, at any time, is either directly or indirectly responsible or in any way liable for any event which may have occurred or may ............

in simple terms if you spill your coffee on your shirt, it’s not the fault of the coffee manufacturers.
or,..
if you install software on to your computer and break something, it’s not our fault

but again this all relates to the “Usage Licence” agreement which allows you to use the 3D models or software, .
and it’s what you’re paying for, as part of the overall “Product” which is being “sold” to you in the store.

Obviously,. what products you choose to purchase in the store, is your choice. but….

The way the product is presented to you,..
The Images on a page, with a description of the contents, and the price of that item.

Together, those elements provide the customer with the terms under which that product is being offered to them for sale.
You get this thing,. for this amount of money.

The customer has an unwritten expectation that the product will be what they’ve been show (as seen) or, and as described.
There’s also the expectation that the product will contain everything that was described.,  will work as intended, and is being sold as fit for purpose..  Note: these are expectations..  but,. it’s an expectation which is shared by the retailer or manufacturer..

It’s in any companies interest to ensure that the products which they offer for sale are fit for purpose,.
and that the terms under which they present them for sale are clear,  at the time of transaction.

Daz3D have great product testers, and everything the store is checked, and tested before it’s released for sale.

That’s why seeing the beta , appear in the store, suddenly for sale,..  was so unusual.

I would have expected an announcement from Daz, and perhaps a sale or special offer to announce the fact that the beta was available for sale.,

As it turns out,. it’s no longer available,. 
so it’s a moot point now,.

but,.. hopefully it’s clearer that there’s a difference between the “Licence” to use the 3D models or software, (what you’re paying for)

Which is different from the way the product is presented to the customer, for sale,  (what am I getting for my money)

Just to add ...

I’m no expert at anything. and wouldn’t claim to be,..
I’m here to learn as much as anyone,.

Andy, I’m sorry, but I have never heard such meaningless gibberish in my entire life.

There’s an old saying: “There’s no reasoning with the unreasonable”. And it’s certainly true in your case.

I’m speechless.

Oh Joe, when you were gone I thought I missed you.

Now you are back I realise that I didn’t miss you at all.

It’s no use trying to antagonise Andy - he is the most patient and kind person on this forum.

If you’re aim is to try and stop people posting on this forum by being rude to them so that they don’t come back - well you have suceeded in a few cases I see.

So congratulations.

You must be very proud of yourself.

Headwax, how did you go back to one post again?
I want to lose my embarrasing addict status?

heh, everytime I make a post I divide it by my birthday, then multiply it by the number of my love handles - I bet it says “2” now

but I am sure I have spoken to you before on this forum, or are you not Andrew Finnie but some alternative headwax

argh, I just logged in with the wrong thingy, that’s all,
now are you trying to up my post count or what
to rpove who I am, who put you onto Lynne’s cats eh?
Was it me? Yes? And does Julia Guulllard need a new bra? Yes
And what about the oppoistion leader’s budgies smuggler’s eh? I bet he’s no abbot ....
I mean the stupid thing was that I called myself headwax about a million years ago after a surfbrand here called Head Worx, and now there are millions of headwax’s out t here - no accounting for taste :(

member search only finds you
so I must be going bonkers
remembering imaginary posts

okay you had me worried, I checked in the mirror and I am real .... well I think t hat was me