Digital Art Zone

 
   
1 of 3
1
Orderly Chaos - Just a Bowl of Gelatin
Posted: 15 August 2014 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2008-11-27

Calling on you artist geniuses out there, but I’d take advice from a “special” noob at this point, if they’ve ever managed to overcome this problem I’m having.

First I should tell you that I’ve only got Bryce 5.5 to do this with, but I don’t think that matters.

Okay, so I was hungry, and had a craving for a bowl of gelatin. I decided to have the kind cut into cubes. I’m having a bit of trouble getting the cubes in the bowl properly.

The problem is arranging the cubes chaotically without having them fall inside each other, or sticking through the inside of the bowl, or “hovering” away from the bowl inside. The default wireframe edit mode just does not cut it for this. Switching to top and side views is not only cumbersome, it still doesn’t get them touching, but not overlapping.

I also realize I should leave it all in the basic Bryce grey texture until I’ve got it done, then add the proper textures before rendering, but I put the textures back in for the sake of the render and screen shots. In the finished work I think I’ll have Orange gelatin instead. I’m also going to add a procedural to make sure the sides of the cubes look ridgey like when you really cut gelatin ... only the top is still perfectly smooth. May even add some bubbles.

In the render here you see 40 cubes. In the end there will be more like 100 piled up well over the top of the bowl, (I’m really hungry), but it makes no sense to go on if the beginning isn’t right. As it is, what you see here isn’t really chaotic enough. There are not many places where the cubes overlap slightly into each other, but too many are laying simply flat with not enough of them rotated on the X and Z axises.

I was going to lay down the first layer, then duplicate that a few times with rotates, stacking higher and higher, then remove some on the outsides of the top layers to make a pile shape. I did not want to lay down each cube separately, but even that is extremely difficult in the wireframe mode.

I tried doing some multi-replicates with different recipes, then “dropping” them into the bowl, but they misbehave ... some falling right through the bowl for some odd reason. Most want to fall through the other cubes, but stay in the bowl. Real gelatin would have simply bounced out of the bowl, of course.

The only way I can really see where the sides of the other cubes and the bowl are is to use one of the “shaded” edit modes. The problem with that is; the shaded modes shade everything, including negatives. So I can’t even see the inside of the bowl. In those modes.

There’s also the Default Mixed mode, but all that does is overlay the basic wireframe over the last render. If you move something, the wireframe moves, but the solid object remains in the scene where it was.

So I decided to think outside the bowl. That’s how I got the configuration you see now. I built these first two layers outside the bowl in Textured Shaded mode, then moved them back into the bowl. Working in that mode is very slow. I had to guess where the side of the bowl would be, and got it WAY wrong. Now that they are inside the bowl again, very few touch the sides of the bowl, and some are sticking into the side of the bowl. Some seem to hover.

Before I decided to create this topic asking for help, I tried to find a tutorial on ordered chaos, but could not. By the way, Mr. Brinnen, and Mr. Wernli, I have a problem with your tutorials. The problem is that they are so interesting and informative, even if I don’t see the topic I’m looking for, I spend hours looking at things that have nothing to do with it, because they’re so interesting. Sometimes I even get so inspired from watching your videos, I put aside what I was working on and looking for an answer to, to try something you two demonstrated. (That particle generator doesn’t seem to work in Bryce 5.5. Cool, though.)

So, has anyone had to climb this wall before? What did you end up doing?

Image Attachments
BowlOfJello_Small.jpg8BryceEditModes.jpg9thBryceEditMode.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 01:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1728
Joined  2011-09-25

@C Tippetts:  I’d like to say I’ve run into this problem, but when I get that hungry I’ll look in the refrigerator.  I’ve not encountered this problem, but I would think, though time consuming, each cube could be placed individually so it didn’t fall into its neighbor or the bowl.

 Signature 

If you constantly look backward, it’s guaranteed you’ll run into something on your forward journey.
My Gallery Page: GussNemo’s Efforts

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 01:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  842
Joined  2008-11-26

i can’t give you any help but I really like the bowl of gelatine.

I second and third you about Horo’s and David’s tutorials- they are so informative. I keep going back to them.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 02:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3772
Joined  2004-10-01

@CTippetts - I’m of no I help for this. The random distribution you’ve already tried, otherwise you wouldn’t say the particle generator doesn’t work in 5.5. Random Replicate hasn’t a collision detect option. Maybe the Instancing Lab in Bryce 7.1 could be helpful but I don’t really know it good enough. But anyway, you haven’t got it. Posing each cube individually will be very tedious and it is difficult to see each one precisely.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2679
Joined  2004-07-06

Yeah, I’ve have faced this problem before.  I tried all kinds of tricks and in the end concluded that I’d spend more time trying to save time than I would if I just bit the bullet and placed every single thing by hand.  Not the answer you want to hear I am sure.  But that has been my experience.

 Signature 

that Bryce Tutorials Info and this Products made by Horo and myself and a link to my gallery at DAZ 3D

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  298
Joined  0

I’m not sure if this would work. When I did the hand barrow in this image filled with bodies I just used the drop arrow to make them drop to ground and they stopped when they landed on top of what was already there. Clicking on it again would take it through the bodies until they actually landed on the ground under the barrow (I think! It is a while since I did it grin ) Rotating each one before positioning it above the bowl using the overhead view would give that randomness you are looking for. This was done in Bryce 7.1 so might not work in 5.5.

Image Attachments
skeleton-in-rain-001.jpg
 Signature 

Don’t Worry, Be Happy.

Sandy

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  179
Joined  2009-10-16

Hi,
I am afraid that the only thing that will work is the tedious one-by-one method. The ‘drop to the ground’ method suggested by Fishtales does use some kind of collision detection, but it does not work with the real geometry of the thing, but with the ‘bounding box’ (if that is what it is called). In the case of cubes, the two are the same, so it would seem to be an option, but the collision detection works in a weird way. Furthermore, gravity does not exist in Bryce, so cubes will balance perfectly on one point or edge and not fall over.

See my illustration. I made a number of cubes. I rotated some of them a bit.
If you drop one cube on another without rotation in both, it will work nicely, as long as the top cube rests for more than half on the bottom cube. However, if the top cube rests for less than half, it will fall to the ground (see right set of cubes, where the purplish one has gone straight through the gray and green one).
If you drop a rotated cube on the ground or on another cube, it will miraculously stay on the line (see middle second cube and left bottom cube). And if you drop rotated cubes onto each other, they will stop somewhere half way.

So, unfortunately, you will have to do it all by hand!

Image Attachments
cubesfalling1.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2008-11-27

Thank you all! I was afraid I’d have to place them all individually with hundreds of plop renders. I think my first step is going to be to make the cubes larger, so there are less to annoy me.

@hansmar - Thank you very much for going through the bother of building that example image, that VERY nicely and clearly, (without the distraction of my bowl), shows exactly what I experienced. Oh, I also figured out that; the times I saw some cubes drop THROUGH the bowl itself, I was dropping several as an non-grouped bunch, and the ones that dropped through were already in contact with the bowl. So that part was proper behavior. Your three stacks demonstrate the problem perfectly, and, as you can see, even dropping each one individually is not the answer.

@Horo - Yes, I did try the Random Distribution features, but your answer makes me think I misspoke about the Random Particle Generator. All I was trying to imply in that side comment about it, was that your video distracted me from the gelatin project, and I ran off to try your trick in Bryce 5.5. Though holding CTRL did make the 2D face lay flat to begin with, it did not become a particle generator. Your response here implies to me that I must have done something wrong, or missed a step, and that it should work in 5.5. As soon as I get this keyboard out of my hands, I’m going to watch your video again, and try it again. I’ll report back. I can see that trick being used to enhance a waterfall or faucet flow, to make a fireworks display, or simply to make a fountain. Dana365 could have used it in his Waterwall, which, to me, without some sort of splashing enhancement, looked like a sheet of aluminum foil folding up into a bin at the bottom. I’m really hoping I did miss something, because it’ll be some time before I can use Bryce 7.

@David Brinnen - I really needed your comment, “...I’d spend more time trying to save time than I would if I just bit the bullet and placed every single thing by hand.” I need to keep that in mind, because I realized upon reading it that; I often do spend more time trying to find a shortcut than I would spend taking the long route. I just don’t like reinventing the wheel if I don’t have to.

@GussNemo - I was hungry because my refrigerator is empty. I’ve been out of work for almost three months recovering from a car crash. I figured Bryce is as close as I ‘d be getting to food for awhile. It’s been good for me. Call it a “crash” diet. I was overweight, and it also cured my acid reflux problems at night. I can now drink coffee again, which used to make my stomach burn. I do have coffee at least. False energy is better than no energy.

@Fishtales - Your image helped with my hunger ... took it right away. Next time I need to lose my appetite, I’ll pull that picture up. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a good piece of art, just not an appetizing one. In fact, I have a musician friend I’m going to point it out to. He mentioned wanting something like that for his CD cover. He may be contacting you.

@mermaid010 - Thank you. I’ll try to save some for you when it’s done.

So, I guess I’ll go put my rubber gloves on, so I don’t contaminate the food as I handle each piece.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3772
Joined  2004-10-01

@CTippetts - yes sorry, I got you wrong. The behaviour of the particle emitter can be controlled with the random modes that’s why I thought you’ve tried the Randomize tool. The software for the particle emitter has been embedded since Bryce 4 but was never activated - probably because of its limitation. During development of 7.0, a programmer stumbled over the code and temporarily activated it for the steering committee. We liked it and DAZ 3D agreed to keep it activated but only as an Easter Egg.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2008-11-27

Yup. Thank you, Horo.

I was hoping the Particle Emitter worked in Bryce 5.5.  It’s just one more piece of inspiration to get myself out of the red so I can buy a new computer capable of Bryce 7.

However, I did try the Randomize tool while making the gelatin. It helped get things spread and turned, but couldn’t keep away the overlapping and spill over. One attempt was to do a Multi-replicate for 21 replicates going up on the Y axis, with, (I think), 47Deg on the the X and -19Deg on the Z. Then I used the Randomize tool to spread those out before dropping them into the bowl. Then I saw the results, and hit Undo a few times. I’ll do it by hand.

First I want to do some more attempts at volumetric clouds ... a more manageable form of orderly chaos. It’s not that I want to be a “purist”, as chohole says, and make all images using strictly Bryce, instead of 2D Faces for cloud fields. I just want to be able to do clouds, without them looking like cotton balls or chunks of snow in the sky. Here I go.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 August 2014 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2005-09-28

What you’re really after is collision physics, which Bryce doesn’t have.

Failing that, I think a judicious amount of the Solo tool will help cut down the ‘noise’ factor of arranging the cubes.

Start by layering the ‘bowl’ level cubes as you see fit. Put them on angles, go crazy, have fun, because no-one’s going to see the bottom layer (other than the camera-facing cubes) so there’s no point stressing about it.

Copy all those cubes and raise them both above, and to one side, of the originals. (Generally I do this with this sequence: Select Cubes, Group, Copy, Paste , Edit Attributes, add 10 to both the X and Z position coordinates, Ungroup. You may wish to select your floating cubes again at this point and copy paste a few times, to get more cubes.)

So now you have a pool of floating cubes you can drag into position. I offset them from both X and Z to allow me to use the preset orthographic views (`1234) for quick views without the floating cubes interfering with my central view. I also find that placing the Director in ‘Center to Selection’ view is the most useful view.

Select a floating cube. Also Select, say, 3-5 bowl cubes in close proximity. Click the Solo button.

All that should be visible now are the selected cubes. This should greatly cut down the wireframe noise when dealing with multiple objects. When you’re done with the area you’re working on, click the Solo button again, reselect a new area of bowl cubes and go again.

EDIT: Just by way of interest, Andrew Price of BlenderGuru.com created this short, entertaining tutorial on Blender’s Rigid Body Physics settings that seem very appropriate for your needs, CT smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHVYYMG3QVY

 Signature 

Oroboros Presents… KEY-FLAME: Bryce Animation Tutorials

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 August 2014 02:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3772
Joined  2004-10-01
CTippetts - 16 August 2014 03:20 PM

It’s not that I want to be a “purist”, as chohole says, and make all images using strictly Bryce, instead of 2D Faces for cloud fields.

I am a purist (most of the time anyway). Not that this attitude makes any sense doing artwork (who cares what brush a painter used?), it’s rather to see what I can make Bryce do out of the box.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 August 2014 11:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2008-11-27
Oroboros - 16 August 2014 03:54 PM

What you’re really after is collision physics, which Bryce doesn’t have.

Failing that, I think a judicious amount of the Solo tool will help cut down the ‘noise’ factor of arranging the cubes.

Start by layering the ‘bowl’ level cubes as you see fit. Put them on angles, go crazy, have fun, because no-one’s going to see the bottom layer (other than the camera-facing cubes) so there’s no point stressing about it.

Copy all those cubes and raise them both above, and to one side, of the originals. (Generally I do this with this sequence: Select Cubes, Group, Copy, Paste , Edit Attributes, add 10 to both the X and Z position coordinates, Ungroup. You may wish to select your floating cubes again at this point and copy paste a few times, to get more cubes.)

So now you have a pool of floating cubes you can drag into position. I offset them from both X and Z to allow me to use the preset orthographic views (`1234) for quick views without the floating cubes interfering with my central view. I also find that placing the Director in ‘Center to Selection’ view is the most useful view.

Select a floating cube. Also Select, say, 3-5 bowl cubes in close proximity. Click the Solo button.

All that should be visible now are the selected cubes. This should greatly cut down the wireframe noise when dealing with multiple objects. When you’re done with the area you’re working on, click the Solo button again, reselect a new area of bowl cubes and go again.

EDIT: Just by way of interest, Andrew Price of BlenderGuru.com created this short, entertaining tutorial on Blender’s Rigid Body Physics settings that seem very appropriate for your needs, CT smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHVYYMG3QVY

The video was, as you said, entertaining. I started watching, and said to myself, “This isn’t what I’m doing at all.” I don’t even have Blender, but I still watched the whole thing all the way through.

However, after looking at a few real pictures of gelatin cubes, (such as the one below), I realized they have too much character to simply duplicate them. I started looking at pictures like this because of what you said about the bottom layers not mattering. They are transparent, so I thought perhaps that’s not true. In fact, the bottom layers do not matter, as the picture below shows. Those will be duplicated, and laid out without regard to their intersecting. The top parts are going to be placed one cube at a time, and I will add character to each one. Some will have corners missing, some will look bent, some will be shorter or longer, some will be dented, there will be a lot with ridges on their sides, etc.. They will all be larger than the ones I started with. It’s going to be a royal pain in the bowl. I’m going to finish though ... someday.

PICTURE BELOW IS A REAL IMAGE ... NOT A BRYCE RENDER. It’s not my work, but a Corbis image.

Image Attachments
JelloCubes_Corbis-42-17801376.jpg
Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2014 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1728
Joined  2011-09-25

...now I’m hungry.smile

 Signature 

If you constantly look backward, it’s guaranteed you’ll run into something on your forward journey.
My Gallery Page: GussNemo’s Efforts

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2014 12:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  308
Joined  2005-09-28
CTippetts - 17 August 2014 11:30 PM

The video was, as you said, entertaining. I started watching, and said to myself, “This isn’t what I’m doing at all.” I don’t even have Blender, but I still watched the whole thing all the way through.

The point is: you make a stack of blocks in Blender, in mid-air, over a bowl. You animate the blocks pouring into the bowl, using Blender’s rigid physics engine to arrange them automaticaly and chaotically, without overlaps. (You can even create soft blocks that bend under gravity, like jelly.)

You export the scene as an OBJ file, bring it into Bryce and have at it for lighting and materials.

 Signature 

Oroboros Presents… KEY-FLAME: Bryce Animation Tutorials

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2014 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1728
Joined  2011-09-25

And Blender is another of those very inexpensive programs.  It’s free.

 Signature 

If you constantly look backward, it’s guaranteed you’ll run into something on your forward journey.
My Gallery Page: GussNemo’s Efforts

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1