Digital Art Zone

DAZ 3D currently has 3D Model Master Training on sale for what seems like a good price. Has anyone used it and say if it is worth buying?

HeavyD - 17 July 2012 07:16 PM

DAZ 3D currently has 3D Model Master Training on sale for what seems like a good price. Has anyone used it and say if it is worth buying?

I found PhilW’s Carrara 8 training from InfiniteSkills to be quite valuable. This looks particularly good too…I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who has purchased it.

Ummm….Mr. D ?

Maybe you should, like, tell us some stuff first. Like, what do you want to learn about? What’s your skill level? What software are you using?

Otherwise you’ll have people recommending training in how to use Carrara when what you really wanted was the basics of modelling in Hexagon. Or maybe you’re more advanced and want to make your own characters, and want to know some advanced stuff.

Did you read about the course? Did you see that they use Lightwave? That may affect whether it’s helpful for you. And maybe you’d be better off taking advantage of all of the free training on the web, rather than spending $$$$ on training. There is a TON of free training out there for just about anything.

I have no clue who the instructor is for this series, but let me warn you there are quite a few self proclaimed experts out there who like to charge big money to people who don’t know any better.

Ahh…wait a minute…this is the guy who said:

“I’ve was there myself, for years, frustrated and praying that my renders would at least look half as good as the ones I saw in the movies after I clicked ‘Render.’ I was relying on trial on error - and stubbornness! - to light my images. After 7 long years, I started to make some progress.”

Took him SEVEN years to figure out he should actually learn about what he’s doing instead of rely on trial and error. Personally, that’s not the kind of guy I would trust to teach me anything. 

Garstor - 17 July 2012 07:28 PM

HeavyD - 17 July 2012 07:16 PM

DAZ 3D currently has 3D Model Master Training on sale for what seems like a good price. Has anyone used it and say if it is worth buying?

I found PhilW’s Carrara 8 training from InfiniteSkills to be quite valuable. This looks particularly good too…I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who has purchased it.

I have to agree.  PhilW’s Carrara 8 training is tops.

I read about the Master er- whatever training and its seems to generic for my tastes.

Design Acrobat - 17 July 2012 09:50 PM

I have to agree.  PhilW’s Carrara 8 training is tops.

I read about the Master er- whatever training and its seems to generic for my tastes.

I was wondering about the generic nature of this Master training since it covers Lightwave, Carrara, Daz Studio, Blender and Wings 3D…I figured it wouldn’t go very deep into any of them.

As much as I do love PhilW’s training—and still refer back to it today—there are a couple of places where I wish I had just a little bit more info. He did some great work on shaders and the shader room, but that is such a deep well that it would be nice to have more material there. Ditto for the Vertex Modeller—he did a nice quick and dirty spaceship there…but now I want even more (I only recently learned about ruled surfaces for example and I still cannot comprehend Gordon or Coons surfaces).

So I was hoping this series might help me with doing more with vertex modelling…and I see that they have a course on lighting (a decently priced one and a stupid expensive one—$1100?!!!? REALLY?!?!?!).

JoeMamma really nails a key point (7 years!) about the possible quality of this training. I’m tempted to buy it just in case there are a few nuggets of useful wisdom…but I’d love a read a better breakdown of what the course offers first.

I realize I’m talking to myself when I say this, but here goes:

It’s not about the software. First learn the concepts, then the software will be MUCH easier. Learn the basic concepts of how to model quickly and efficiently. Learn what UV mapping is and the best ways to approach it. Learn lighting and color concepts first before you spend 7 years trying to figure it out for yourself. Learn what shading is, learn what all the properties of surfaces are, learn how materials react to light. Once you know that stuff, the settings and dials in the software will make a lot of sense, instead of trying to figure them out as you encounter them. That’s backwards.

Like I say, there is a TON of free stuff out there, no sense spending money you don’t need to spend. Decide what you want to learn about, search around or ask around, and you’ll find some good stuff.

Don’t think that by learning the software you’re learning 3D. You’re not. You can be a master at the software and not understand lighting, or shading, or modelling, or anything else you really need to know. It takes SO MUCH longer to do it backwards, and you end up getting nowhere.

I guarantee, if, for example, you decide you want to learn about how materials respond to light so you know how shaders work, you can do internet searches and find tons of excellent, generic stuff that explains it all. How many people spend years using 3D software, and don’t even really understand what translucency and refraction are? Once you understand how stuff like that works, you’ll be understanding and searching it out in the software, not bumping up against it and scratching your head trying to figure out what it is. Same goes for modelling. Learn the basic techniques for efficient box modelling, and understand UV maps and shading domains, then when you open the software you’ll know what you’re doing.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:15 AM

I realize I’m talking to myself when I say this

No need for sarcasm (though you do wield that scalpel well).

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:15 AM

It’s not about the software. First learn the concepts, then the software will be MUCH easier. Learn the basic concepts of how to model quickly and efficiently.

Absolutely right. You just described me to a T. As I have said before, I am a hobbyist not a professional; so my learning approach has been as backward as you describe. I’m learning what Carrara can do first rather than understanding basic concepts.

I do have a book on digital lighting that is meant to be generic (though all the screenshots do show high-end software packages). I am still working my way through it (very slowly).

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:15 AM

Like I say, there is a TON of free stuff out there, no sense spending money you don’t need to spend. Decide what you want to learn about, search around or ask around, and you’ll find some good stuff.

That can be part of the challenge though. Often you simply do not know what to ask about in order to start learning those basic concepts. I am hoping that a package like this would cover those basics at least enough to get a foothold for future self-teaching.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:15 AM

Learn the basic techniques for efficient box modelling, and understand UV maps and shading domains, then when you open the software you’ll know what you’re doing.

No doubt. I’d love to understand modelling and UV maps far better than I currently do.

Garstor - 18 July 2012 04:02 AM

Design Acrobat - 17 July 2012 09:50 PM

I have to agree.  PhilW’s Carrara 8 training is tops.

I read about the Master er- whatever training and its seems to generic for my tastes.

I was wondering about the generic nature of this Master training since it covers Lightwave, Carrara, Daz Studio, Blender and Wings 3D…I figured it wouldn’t go very deep into any of them.

As much as I do love PhilW’s training—and still refer back to it today—there are a couple of places where I wish I had just a little bit more info. He did some great work on shaders and the shader room, but that is such a deep well that it would be nice to have more material there. Ditto for the Vertex Modeller—he did a nice quick and dirty spaceship there…but now I want even more (I only recently learned about ruled surfaces for example and I still cannot comprehend Gordon or Coons surfaces).

So I was hoping this series might help me with doing more with vertex modelling…and I see that they have a course on lighting (a decently priced one and a stupid expensive one—$1100?!!!? REALLY?!?!?!).

JoeMamma really nails a key point (7 years!) about the possible quality of this training. I’m tempted to buy it just in case there are a few nuggets of useful wisdom…but I’d love a read a better breakdown of what the course offers first.

Hi Garstor,

Thanks for your comments about the Carrara Training.  There was a limit to what I could include in the first volume and as this was more aimed at newbies to Carrara, modelling was one of the areas that was perhaps covered “lightly”.  There is much more focus on modelling in the Advanced Carrara title - although I realise that this would be another purchase.

I wouldn’t worry too much about Gordon’s or Coons surfaces - although I understand them, I don’t think I have ever actually needed them to make a model.  Most modelling can be achieved using a fairly limited subset of tools.

I have seen some Dreamlight tutorials and I personally found that they seemed a bit dragged out, taking a while to make the point, but I haven’t seen this specific package and so cannot comment in detail.

PhilW - 18 July 2012 04:17 PM

Thanks for your comments about the Carrara Training.  There was a limit to what I could include in the first volume and as this was more aimed at newbies to Carrara, modelling was one of the areas that was perhaps covered “lightly”.  There is much more focus on modelling in the Advanced Carrara title - although I realise that this would be another purchase.

I totally understand the necessary limitations of the format Phil. I am sure that no one training package for any product could possibly please all customers. It will be either too shallow or too deep. As a fairly neophyte type I was blown away by your material—I return to it still (especially the rural cottage bit on creating distribution maps in PhotoShop) when I work on my own scenes for refreshing my memory.

Come to think of it, I should watch the Sopwith Camel modelling sessions again.

I get paid next week and if the mortgage doesn’t entirely wipe out my bank account, I just might pick-up this package and report back to this thread! 

If this forum’s uber-gurus could get together, I’d bet there could be some killer training produced. As Joe mentions, there is some free stuff out there (Hi cripeman!) once you know what to look for.

Garstor - 18 July 2012 07:09 AM

No need for sarcasm (though you do wield that scalpel well).

It was nothing against you, just a recognition after a number of years visiting this forum that many people here will argue and argue and argue against stuff that is factual, rather obvious, and based on many years of experience. So I fully expected those voices to pipe up and jump on what I said, or just ignore it completely if favor of their own biases, or just take it as some personal attack and get angry. My sarcasm has developed, unfortunately, after years of being beaten up and attacked for just trying to help and improve peoples’ skill levels.

Anyway, please don’t assume (and I’m not addressing this to anyone in particular, just in general) that because you’re a hobbyist and not a professional that you should somehow restrict your learning. I hear that all the time, and I don’t understand it. “I’m just a hobbyist”...

The concepts involved are NOT difficult. They are fairly simple. Don’t think they are somehow too advanced for you, or too difficult to understand. 

I really, really think that people would enjoy the hobby a lot more if they understood the basics, which would allow them to produce stunning results that amazed even themselves. “Wow, I did THAT??”

And it certainly would make your life simpler, and save you a LOT of time and frustration. Why spend years and years fumbling around when you can spend a fraction of that time learning the basics, and as a result get to where you want to be much much sooner?

But instead I see a lot of people who are openly hostile to any new concepts or learning, unless it involves what dials to spin in Carrara. The attitude seems to be “I know what I know and I don’t wanna know no ‘mo”. You almost never (or is it never) hear anyone asking about basic concepts, it’s always about how to spin dials. Which is really unfortunate, because I think people are missing most of the real joy of the art and the hobby. And yes, I know this is a Carrara forum, but the basic concepts are inextricably tied to the implementation, so at least there should be some discussion of those concepts. 

Anyway, I’m not saying this against anyone in particular or you, Garstor, just mentioning a recurring theme that pops up regularly here.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:12 PM

It was nothing against you, just a recognition after a number of years visiting this forum that many people here will argue and argue and argue against stuff that is factual, rather obvious, and based on many years of experience.

Ah, the vagaries of internet communication…messages are stripped visual and audible clues that help the communication process along and the messages to be correctly parsed. All we have here are smileys… 

I never interpreted you as being on an attack; I can certainly relate to the pent-up frustration that led to it. It just seemed unnecessary here. Let’s move on with the topic at hand.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:12 PM

Anyway, please don’t assume (and I’m not addressing this to anyone in particular, just in general) that because you’re a hobbyist and not a professional that you should somehow restrict your learning. I hear that all the time, and I don’t understand it. “I’m just a hobbyist”...

There is another recent thread (this one I believe: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/4021/) that set the differences between hobbyist and professional quite nicely. For me, I am playing around with Carrara and if a nice / interesting scene comes of it, so much the better. I am not making money off of it with models or animation.

Before Carrara, I used POV-Ray. It’s free but it’s development cycle is glacially slow (how little I knew…“8.5! Why dost thou torment me!?!”). Building a scene there is very much like programming in the C language; that appealed to me but it was also slow and frustrating. I couldn’t understand how some people could produce such incredible works of art with it. There was a complete manual (at least we had that), but I still found the learning curve far too steep. I’d try something and the language parser would vomit errors back to me.

I wanted a replacement and I found Carrara.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:12 PM

The concepts involved are NOT difficult. They are fairly simple. Don’t think they are somehow too advanced for you, or too difficult to understand.

Thanks! I appreciate the vote of confidence. I tend to learn best with a combination of book/manual and playing around. That’s why PhilW’s training material appealed to me. There was the voice of experience telling you about something and then showing you. It was the best of both worlds.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:12 PM

I really, really think that people would enjoy the hobby a lot more if they understood the basics, which would allow them to produce stunning results that amazed even themselves. “Wow, I did THAT??”

Totally right. It is a thrill when something really neat turns out (all the moreso when everything is done by you…no other models). One of my friends keeps telling me to learn lighting. I will…slowly…sped up a bit by some of the free tutorials that are out there (when I stumble upon them). I need to explore some of the other lights in Carrara—I mainly use Bulb lights and sometimes Spots; I’m sure better effects can be acheived with the other lights.

JoeMamma2000 - 18 July 2012 05:12 PM

And yes, I know this is a Carrara forum, but the basic concepts are inextricably tied to the implementation, so at least there should be some discussion of those concepts.

Perhaps it would behoove Daz to add a forum for just there. Yeah, there is the newbie forum (oddly enough I almost never go in there); but as you point out, it is usually about dial spinning. A forum dedicated to basic concepts might be useful (though I imagine it would devolve rapidly into “dial spinning” threads…).

We’re not so far apart on these issues after all.

Phil, if you ever want to do a Part 3 to your training…I am totally there. Front row.

I am in the Dreamlight course.  He is very knowledgeable and I like (and read) the segments for each of the programs.  As an absolute newcomer to modeling and 3D, I haven’t gotten very much out of it.  I need step by step instruction, spelled out in detail, in print.  For those with more experience, such as knowing how to use your program of choice, I can see the value of the course though.

I would add my voice to say that lighting is the key to good 3D rendering (in my view). Understand how lighting works - direct and indirect lighting - and you will have a powerful toolkit to add realism and drama to any scene.

Garstor - thank you for your support.  I am interested to know, if there were to be a 3rd part to the training (and I have to say here that there are no current plans), what would you like to see in it?  Perhaps that should be the subject of a separate thread…

AtticAnne - 19 July 2012 10:40 AM

I am in the Dreamlight course.  He is very knowledgeable and I like (and read) the segments for each of the programs.  As an absolute newcomer to modeling and 3D, I haven’t gotten very much out of it.  I need step by step instruction, spelled out in detail, in print.  For those with more experience, such as knowing how to use your program of choice, I can see the value of the course though.

Hi AtticAnne!

Do you think you haven’t gotten much out of it due to being a newcomer? Perhaps not yet able to grasp what concepts are the most important (and as you can see in this thread, those are debatable!)?

For Carrara modeling the old book the Carrara 5 Pro Handbook by Mike de la Flor was a huge help for me to learn how to model.  It has several modeling projects in it.  Two of the modeling projects in it are for Hexagon too.  It doesn’t cover some other things about Carrara that I would have like it too., but for basic modeling it was top notch.

Lighting is going to be what you want to learn first before moving into modeling.  I highly recommend you get a copy Digital Lighting and Rendering (2nd Edition) , by Jeremy Birn it will save you a lot of headaches and teach you all about 3D lighting and what you want to know to get good lighting regardless of what program you use.  This is the single best instructional I’ve seen on lighting and is a must have item.

He also has some stuff on his website that is helpful to a beginner to 3D too.

http://www.3drender.com

There are free web tutorials like “Geeks at Play” that will teach you whatever you need to know to become a 3D modeler.