Digital Art Zone

 
   
2 of 3
2
Why I finally gave up on Carrara
Posted: 15 July 2012 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
New Member
Total Posts:  1
Joined  2009-08-09

I’ve been with Carrara 6, Ray Dram designer whatever, a strange road of upgrades of the years. And 3D has never been my forte, I do more general design work. But I have used 3D for a project or two every year for the past while. After having an issue with Carrara just now, I decided to try Cheetah3D, and after an hour, I’m am ecstatic to find an intuitive speedy replacement for Carrara. Yay!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2012 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  962
Joined  2006-06-12
JoeMamma2000 - 15 July 2012 02:56 PM
McGuiver - 15 July 2012 10:56 AM

C’mon development team….please, bring the pro version of Carrara up to the standard of truely professional.

Why?


Why do you guys continue to believe that the goal for Carrara should be to be a tool that high end professionals would want? Why?


DAZ does what makes DAZ the most money. They define who their market is, and they do what they can to get those people to buy stuff. Just like any other company. DAZ’s market is NOT professionals. Never has been, and I’m not sure why it would ever be. They enjoy a niche market right now, that almost nobody else has.


In terms of numbers, there are vastly more hobbyists who want to buy content and inexpensive/free 3D software than there are high or middle level professionals who would switch to Carrara. Not even close. So why would you spend all that development money on adding high end features that most hobbyists have little or no use for, and certainly don’t want to pay for, instead of doing stuff that the hobbyists want?


It’s a hugely different market. Hugely different. Pros want features and are willing to pay for them. Hobbyists are not. You can’t have a business model where you charge $100 per user for an upgrade with tons of new high end features that cost you $300 per user to implement.


Yes, it would be nice if DAZ would put in the features I want, many of which are high end features. But I realize that’s not possible. They MUST focus on their market and their source of revenue, which is hobbyists buying a $19.95 set of V4 clothing. Otherwise they have no revenue.

I disagree.


I’m a professional. I LOVE Carrara.


Right now, the way things are, clients don’t want to pay for a $20 V4 figure, much less something I have to build on my own.


I don’t think Daz needs to do a ton more development for Carrara. They need to better document the software they already have and foster more education on it. I use Carrara 7Pro, but I know very few artists who can even scratch the surface on what it can do, I know I don’t.


As the years go on, I find it harder and more expensive to obtain clients and more difficult to service them. They love the IDEA of custom design work, but they don’t want to pay for it. They love the idea of quick turnaround, but they sit and spin for months wasting timewhile w could be working.


For me and many other pros, Carrara offers great value and the power of being able to use V4 and other Daz/Poser content makes it the best solution.


cool smile

 Signature 

There is a serious tendency toward capitalism among the well-to-do peasants.
Mao Tse-Tung

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2012 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  962
Joined  2006-06-12
Frank__ - 15 July 2012 05:08 PM
PhilW - 15 July 2012 03:56 PM

But they need to deliver Genesis compatibility as soon as possible ...  I think that they can earn good money from doing that

Not from me.

Why?
- I bought Studio 4 Pro. Will not buy software anymore from DAZ which is more than 20$. No bad feelings, just a decision.
- for stills I can import Genesis into Carrara
- for my humble attempts on animation I’m back to V4. With all the “perfect”-fixes V4 bends and looks better than Genesis. And all the aniblocks and Carrara hair etc. I bought work on V4 better or only but not on Genesis. Hoping more for “perfect”-fixes for M4 than for Carrara 8.5
- the (for me) most impressive feature in DS4 is the smoothing modifier. Not in Carrara 8.5? Fine.


I agree. I Love those aniBlocks and the perfect fixes for V4 are a miracle and work like a charm.

cool smile

 

 Signature 

There is a serious tendency toward capitalism among the well-to-do peasants.
Mao Tse-Tung

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2012 09:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  113
Joined  0
JoeMamma2000 - 15 July 2012 02:56 PM
McGuiver - 15 July 2012 10:56 AM

C’mon development team….please, bring the pro version of Carrara up to the standard of truely professional.

Why?


Why do you guys continue to believe that the goal for Carrara should be to be a tool that high end professionals would want? Why?


DAZ does what makes DAZ the most money. They define who their market is, and they do what they can to get those people to buy stuff. Just like any other company. DAZ’s market is NOT professionals. Never has been, and I’m not sure why it would ever be. They enjoy a niche market right now, that almost nobody else has.


In terms of numbers, there are vastly more hobbyists who want to buy content and inexpensive/free 3D software than there are high or middle level professionals who would switch to Carrara. Not even close. So why would you spend all that development money on adding high end features that most hobbyists have little or no use for, and certainly don’t want to pay for, instead of doing stuff that the hobbyists want?


Most high end professional studios would never switch software. The logistics alone are a nightmare, not to mention the fact that most have their own in-house and/or proprietary software, or used established software that caters to them. Most high end studios have direct connections to those developers, and the developers understand their needs. Does DAZ have that? No. Could they break into that business? I’d be very surprised if they could. Very surprised. Personally, I can’t imagine it could happen. 


It’s a hugely different market. Hugely different. Pros want features and are willing to pay for them. Hobbyists are not. You can’t have a business model where you charge $100 per user for an upgrade with tons of new high end features that cost you $300 per user to implement.

It’s just so affordable, easy to use, has come so far, and is now so….so….so close to being something, beginners, hobbyists or professionals could use for any high end work. smile
I do believe there will come a day when more artists won’t need high dollar software with a steep learning curve to do high end work. Brian Taylors “Rustboy” gave me inspiration years ago.

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 July 2012 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  100
Joined  0

I use Carrara 8.1 Pro for professional work and enjoy it a lot (also used Ray-Dream decades ago…). I find it to be very stable on the PC and also very capable.
It is an amazingly complex piece of software with tons of features and modules, so I’m amazed that it rarely crash. Quite an achievement I would say, considering the small team that develops it.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 July 2012 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  137
Joined  2005-10-11

JM (The Wizz), 


good luck and have fun with C4D!  Great choice. =)


It was a financial stretch, but I was able to get R11 with the AdvanceRender3 module a few
years ago…...even on my old laptop it runs silky smooth and very stabile…..a real pleasure to use.
The learning curve is relatively easy…..the things you can do with Matrix Extrude and Hyper-NURBS!
It’s almost obscene. =O


Also has a great material editor and rendering engine.


On the other hand, much as I like using C4D, my interest is more outdoors, i.e. skies, terrains, and
Carrara is better suited. Also like the cameras, modifiers, animation tools in Carrara better…...at least
more intuitive…...i.e. so easy to put a spin modifier on something in Carrara vs doing 359.9 degree
rotation, then rendering all but the last frame to get a smooth rotation in C4D.


Also, nice to have the physics in Carrara…...may not equal MoGraph, but does a lot now and has potential for more.
Carrara is a lot of 3D app for a reasonable price, though I can see how having to compete for clients would cause you
to upgrade to C4D or another “high-end” app.


Would have upgraded C4D, but now the pricing structure has changed radically, so instead of just being able to get the
core and the modules a la carte, you have to buy a chunk for $$$$. Too bad…..I think it excludes too many
potential users, which seems a short sighted policy in this economy. Still an elegant app.


If you haven’t joined already, www.c4dcafe.com is the best place to learn and hang out…...Nigel (“3DKiwi”) runs a tight ship, but is a great guy, very helpful, and has created many great tuts for $1 ea.


Hope you show us what you do with C4D, and keep in touch. =)

 

 Signature 

My YouTube channel 
www.blenderportal.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Power Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1194
Joined  2005-04-12

I don’t think you can define “professionals” as just those who work for major studios.  Yes, they would not even look a 3D package that cost less than £1000, and preferably a whole load more (or as you say, using very expensive bespoke software).  But there are many professionals - ie. earning money from 3D - who work for small studios, or as freelance professionals, and Carrara is a good and powerful solution for many of their needs.  And as clients are always wanting more for less, using Carrara with bought content (or a mixture of bought and custom content) can be a cost-effective approach.  I used such an approach for a music video that I have been working on recently, using a combination of Carrara and Marvelous Designer, bought and custom 3D content, to provide a solution for a band that could not afford the tens of thousands it would have cost with a major studio.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  137
Joined  2005-10-11

I used such an approach for a music video that I have been working on recently, using a combination of Carrara and Marvelous Designer,

Would love to see that, Phil. smile


Yes, I’ve seen very professional work done with Carrara…...I think one impediment (and I’m not “in the industry”.......just anecdotal)
is that the perception by other pros’s is that Carrara is a hobbiest toy app…......someone at the C4D forum said to get a “real
app”, which I thought was unfair. Maybe it can’t do bleeding edge animations like the best from C4D, Maya, etc. but wouldn’t
write it off as a toy…....“it’s the artist, not the app”........though you can only go so far with some apps, e.g. Carrara. 


Also, in a large shop, if everyone is using Maya, Max, etc, Carrara doesn’t have a chance, as JoeMomma has previously said in other words. And if was taught in high school or college, it would have more credibility, but it’s a “Catch-22” .....the teachers won’t teach it since it’s not widely used in “the Industry”!  Aaagggghhh!!!


That’s why we pushed to get Reality 4 Carrara among other things…...to boost Carrara’s credibility, market share, etc.
So “it is what it is…....what will be will be…....so well, tough sh…..”


No more tilting at windmills for me…....just going with the flow. wink

 Signature 

My YouTube channel 
www.blenderportal.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Power Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1194
Joined  2005-04-12
megacal - 19 July 2012 02:26 PM

I used such an approach for a music video that I have been working on recently, using a combination of Carrara and Marvelous Designer,

Would love to see that, Phil. smile

I’ll post somewhere on the Carrara forum when it is made public - should be in a couple of weeks or so.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1059
Joined  2007-10-15
PhilW - 19 July 2012 10:51 AM

I don’t think you can define “professionals” as just those who work for major studios.  .


That certainly wasn’t my intent. It was an example. An extreme example to clearly show the point.


What I was trying to do (and I even used bold lettering to focus people on my point…) was to explain the difference in the MARKET, from the perspective of a software/content developer.


There are many professionals who use 3D software. They are in advertising. They work for large and small advertising firms. They make music videos, in large and small firms. They make feature films, in large and small firms. They do general contract work in large and small firms for a variety of industries. They produce TV shows, in large and small firms. There are some “one man shows” who do work for a variety of industries. There are MANY, MANY different types of professionals who do 3D work. Nobody would ever argue with that. It’s clearly true and clearly obvious.


The distinction I was making involves the BUYING HABITS of various elements of those professionals. It’s called the MARKET, and companies typically decide to service (ie, market and sell to) one or more of those particular markets, with particular buying habits. Happens in every industry on the planet.


Now, the point I was trying to make (and it was NOT to put anyone down, but rather to explain the different markets in 3D), was that some of those professionals I described are in the market that is GENERALLY interested in the following:


1. Low prices for software upgrades. Generally not willing to pay big sums for upgrades, and certainly not regular maintenance fees, since they generally operate on a very low budget, are self employed, and don’t have the resources that a larger firm would have.


2. Aren’t interested in software with “collaborative” tools and features, which are absolutely required in larger firms where teams of people work together in a “pipeline” to produce a final result. Which is why these tools are generally found in the higher end software.


3. Generally need to produce a result very quickly, for very low cost, and therefore tend to buy pre-made content that is very low priced.


The list goes on, but I think you can see my point. The other end of that spectrum is, obviously, those professionals who work in firms with more resources, a team environment, higher budgets, etc. Those people tend to be willing to pay regular, and rather expensive, software maintenance fees, have on site resources to build materials from scratch, and clients who require VERY specific “content” for the 3D product they generate, which generally cannot be satisfied by premade, off the shelf content. They also have specific pipelines and sometimes in-house software developers who also define how the “content” must be designed.


Now, none of this is opinion, it’s pretty much factual. There ARE different markets for 3D products, and different types of professional users. And clearly DAZ is directing its marketing to one segment of that. But my overall point was that the market segment they are directing their efforts to, the “low end” professional (and that is not intended to attack or denigrate anyone, merely a description of the typical “low end” budget and complexity and needs of this market), is suprisingly identical to the buying habits and needs of the “hobbyist” market (and again, there’s no intent to denigrate anyone, so if someone can come up with a less offensive descriptive word then please let me know).


YES, there are professionals who use any 3D software. That’s obvious. And YES, there are professionals who use Carrara. Again, obvious. But the ones who use Carrara, and other DAZ products and content, TEND to be what I have defined as the “low end” market, generally a “one man show” or very small firm with limited budgets and resources, whose buying habits tend to be quite similar to the hobbyist market.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Power Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1194
Joined  2005-04-12

No argument here - I can agree with that!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1059
Joined  2007-10-15

And BTW, if I can recall the original purpose of the thread…


I think the main point is that you CAN NOT expect a developer who is targeted at the hobbyist/low end professional market to treat that market, and the software it develops for that market, like a high end professional market. Doesn’t make sense.


High end professionals, that work in teams need stuff like:

1. Scripting. Tools to allow customization of just about everything, so the professional team can set up their pipeline to make it easy for the entire team to do their part of the work.

2. Rigging tools: If you’re building your “content” from scratch (the modeller) and rigging it (a separate rigger), and making it usable for the animator (yet another person), you need some very complex and flexible rigging tools. Hobbyists generally don’t need this at all. They load a pre-rigged figure, and off they go.


3. Direct support: Many have in house developers or software guys who need to have access to the vendor developers, and are willing to pay for that ability.


There is a long, long list of differences, features that high end guys need/demand that hobbyists couldn’t care less about. And when a high end guy wants a feature, his company is usually willing to pay for it, which most hobbyists aren’t. And by that I mean that the true cost of developing that feature must be divided among the users, or else the company loses money. How many hobbyists, when they ask for a new feature, are willing to back that up by paying their share of its development, either with an upgrade fee or regular maintenance fee?


So the point is, you can certainly ask for all the cool features you want, but don’t expect an hobbyist software to be similar to any high end software. First of all, you probably don’t want it to be, and secondly you probably can’t afford it. That doesn’t mean the the hobbyist software is any less good than the high end software, it’s just different, and designed for a different group of people with different needs.


So don’t wish too hard for Carrara to be like the high end software. Is it really what you want?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Power Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1194
Joined  2005-04-12

Hi Joe - I take your point, but there are some features that I (and others) have requested which would be (a) very useful and (b) relatively easy to implement (at least I think so from my programming days - certainly easier than integrating Genesis!).  If Carrara is to keep its share of the “serious hobbyist / small professional” market, it needs to improve and keep pace with other developments.  Carrara should be positioned as the Daz flagship product, but sometimes it feels like the poor cousin to DS.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1059
Joined  2007-10-15
PhilW - 19 July 2012 10:51 AM

I used such an approach for a music video that I have been working on recently, using a combination of Carrara and Marvelous Designer, bought and custom 3D content, to provide a solution for a band that could not afford the tens of thousands it would have cost with a major studio.


Perfect example !! If I could use your point as an illustration…


Local band decides they want a music video to promote themselves. They have friends who say, “yeah, 3D stuff is easy, I know a kid who can do it cheap”. Then they hear about this guy who does 3D as a freelance, and decide to check him out. They figure it’s easy stuff, plus they’re a struggling rock band with not much/any money since they only play gigs on weekends, so they want the video done for a few hundred $$ (or whatever that is in pounds…). Whatever the number, it’s low.


So the freelance guy decides to bite the bullet and do the job, maybe makes a tiny bit of money, but more likely loses a bit.


Now, what kind of market is he in? Is he willing to spend $800 on a new software upgrade? What about a yearly maintenance fee? Is he willing to pay for the scripting feature upgrades that the bigger studios so desperately need, and will pay thru the nose for, because it can save them huge $$?


No, he wants a free M4 model, and have to pay no more than $19.95 for clothing, and he wants to be able to load that figure, use some prepackaged animated motions and lipsyncs, and get the video out the door at a minimum loss.


Now I’m just using this as a hypothetical to describe the challenges we all know that the low end professional market faces, and why they tend to have buying habits like the hobbyist. Not a bad thing, just the facts of life.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 July 2012 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1059
Joined  2007-10-15
PhilW - 19 July 2012 04:45 PM

Hi Joe - I take your point, but there are some features that I (and others) have requested which would be (a) very useful and (b) relatively easy to implement (at least I think so from my programming days - certainly easier than integrating Genesis!). .


Absolutely true. No question. There are things I’ve wanted for years, and I keep scratching my head trying to figure out why they haven’t been implemented, since they’re so obvious, would save so much time, and are seemingly incredibly easy to implement. Absolutely.


Just keep in mind that DAZ does what DAZ thinks will make DAZ money. Which is what you and I want it to do, or else it wouldn’t survive to improve Carrara. And we need to realize that making it a one click procedure to move two objects together instead of three clicks doesn’t bring money in the door. And while I think that’s a no-brainer, many don’t agree. I’m sure your “very useful” and my “very useful” might have significant differences. 


So keep in mind they have many competing wants/needs from many users, and sorting that out can be impossible. But yes, there’s no question it has its work cut out for it if it wants to be a “flagship” product. But like I’ve said before, maybe that’s not the goal. Maybe content is the sole goal, and maybe Carrara is breathing its last gasp. My point is that people tend to assume “I want this, therefore it’s what DAZ should do”, and I don’t think from a global perspective that’s necessarily what they really want, all things considered.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2