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Help Filling In The Dots ( A discussion about booleans, domains and sending to Daz Studio)
Posted: 13 July 2012 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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TapiocaTundra - 12 July 2012 10:15 PM

Hi afreaginname thanks

Here’s my confusion: You are CLEARLY using texture maps on the body. That’s the only way you can have that wood texture on there.

...I do not think you have used Bryce before, might pay you to understand a little more about other software before making sweeping statements about how things work smile

I think this was an honest mistake. While most if not all render engines provide for the use of procedural textures, I don’t think there’s one out there that uses them even close to what they are used in Bryce. I did use Bryce a bit in the past, and used, even created my own procedurals. But, it’s been so long I forgot how much they are used also.

This does point out why it is good to use different software packages, they give us a different way of looking at doing something and expand our toolbox of tricks no matter what package we happen to be using at the moment. Anyone using any application who hears someone else say ‘that’s not a real xxx’ can take heart in this. Each teaches us things, and anyone who doesn’t recognize this is cutting themselves off from valuable learning opportunities.

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Posted: 13 July 2012 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Roygee - 12 July 2012 08:01 PM

... I can’t imagine doing the attached any other way than with Boolean.  It could be done, but I’d hate to be the one to do it.

Now this renders perfectly in Hex, Carrara, Poser, Bryce and Blender, but Daz Studio makes a total mess of it.  Could spend a couple of days fixing it for Studio, but why bother when there are decent render engines out there.

I think this is an excellent example actually. There are tricks to getting this without booleans but with all the curves it would be challenging and probably higher poly then one would wish. Sometimes booleans are good for quick and dirty stuff or things like this that would be not worth the effort to do another way. There are tricks to using booleans without it blowing up on you. Some software creates better/more compatable boolean geometry. Maya for instance is supposed to be better at this than many and some packages really concentrate on good booleans (Rhino maybe, don’t remember.) Also, what you are trying to do plays a big part. Booleans are better for solid objects then something that one is going to rig or apply SubD etc.. on. Some people love booleans and will use them, only switching to something more ‘manual’ if the boolean blows up and this is a valid approach.

The main thing here is to be aware that booleans are their own beast and have idionsyncracies that one either takes into account or avoids by avoiding using them.

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Posted: 13 July 2012 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Design Acrobat - 12 July 2012 10:47 PM

...The thing about booleans is that they will always leave triagular faces or co-planar faces

I believe this is one of the problems with DAZ dealing with booleans. Many software packages have problems with triangles and they need to be converted to quads to work properly.

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Posted: 13 July 2012 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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TapiocaTundra - 12 July 2012 10:15 PM

Sorry to destroy your theory that my render was made using texture maps though, I have to tell you that they are all procedural materials used in the image,(all maths and no maps) clever isn’t it.
I do not think you have used Bryce before, might pay you to understand a little more about other software before making sweeping statements about how things work smile
I got the wood material from http://www.tonylynchdesigns.com/bryce_materials.htm

 
No need to get smartassed. You were trying to do something and I was trying to help you do it.
 
3D modelling is ALL math. Whether you’re creating a mesh plane or rendering a complex scene, it’s 100% math.
 
Whether you like it or not, the “wood material” MAT file you got from tony lynch was a texture map image inside a proprietary file which may or may not be based on the matlab MAT file format, though it wouldn’t surprise me if it was.
 
“Procedural” processes may look like magic, but down in the bowels of bryce the application of a texture map to a mesh is no different than any other program, only the LANGUAGE is different, which were the first words out of my keyboard in my previous post.
 
This is, after all, a hexagon discussion group. I understand hexagon very well, and I also understand meshes, materials and mapping down at the nuts and bolts level better than any 10 people you’ll ever come across.
 
So excuse me for trying to translate your brycean into hexagonese so I could understand what was in your mind.
 

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Posted: 13 July 2012 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Hi Gedd grin

Daz Studio has no problems with tri’s, as such - there’s something else which causes it to mess up Hex Booleans - in other discussions it appears to be some sort of automatic smoothing operation it performs on importing .obj.  I don’t know much about Studio - only have it because it’s necessary to have Genesis work in the Carrara Beta.

Obviously some poly modeller software is better at some things than others - the orange .obj in my pic was made in Blender, as is.  The green one in Hex, after triangulating N-gons.  See the difference in how the tri’s are laid out.  Strangely enough, the Blender one couldn’t even import into Studio - gave an error report.  After exporting from Hex to .obj, it opened and rendered perfectly in Studio.

As expected, the Hex one was a mess in Studio.

So it appears that if you want a Boolean to render in Studio, you need to make it in Blender and export it through Hex - It’s a strange,strange world, Master Jack:-)

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Posted: 13 July 2012 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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afreaginname - 13 July 2012 11:06 AM

Whether you like it or not, the “wood material” MAT file you got from tony lynch was a texture map image inside a proprietary file which may or may not be based on the matlab MAT file format, though it wouldn’t surprise me if it was.

grin  There you go again sweeping statements around with your big old brush.

This of course may or may not be based on your knowledge of procedural materials I take it.

Lets be friends eh grin

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Posted: 13 July 2012 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Roygee - 13 July 2012 01:34 PM

..So it appears that if you want a Boolean to render in Studio, you need to make it in Blender and export it through Hex - It’s a strange,strange world, Master Jack:-)

Hehe, tyvm for that summary clarification. I had seen bits of this in various discussions but don’t remember seeing it summarized so well. I’ll be clipping that for my notes (evernote to the rescue wink )

Oh btw, the second one looks like it would definitely UV Map more cleanly. I might try to redo the top though bfr exporting if I were keeping it.

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Posted: 13 July 2012 11:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Id did make a good map after some cleaning up - in fact, it would have been quicker just to model it in the first place.  The thing is, the algorithms don’t have any sense of aesthetics, they just do what they have to.

Now if some clever programmer would teach Booleans to cut new edges in the surrounding geometry and leave the user to deal with the resulting N-gons, instead of just connecting to the nearest corner and leaving us with those long, thin tri’s and ugly poles, they would be much more useful.

What surprised me is that Blender, which is far more sophisticated than Hex, only has three Boolean options, where Hex has 12, plus a control for the depth of the cut.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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I use Hex intermittently - like for this illus I did for an article on back to school supplies (just showing wire frame here)

I see your domino box-model method, but would that make a hole all the way through a preexisting mesh?
Say I wanted to drill a hole through the notepad in the illustration, but do not want to remake the model?

(I don’t do DAZ studio… for the illustrations, I normally render in Carrara)

Thanks

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Posted: 14 July 2012 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Well one way to do it would to be to bring it into Blender as an obj, create boolean holes, export as obj and bring back into hex for cleanup. Unfortunately I don’t have a link to a tutorial that would step you through that process. Blender’s interface might be much for most people but it can be helpful to learn enough to use it for simple tasks like this. Sometimes a certain package just does a particular task better than the others.

There are some good tutorials on Hexagon at Geekatplay.com for anyone who hasn’t been there but I also got some good tips in Fugazzi’s clothing tutorials here in the DAZ store and recommend them for anyone wanting to see some tips on cleaning up meshes in Hexagon as i haven’t seen some of his methods shown that clearly anywhere else. (Not that someone else hasn’t done so, I just haven’t run across it.) As for Blender, if anyone is so inclined, Youtube and Blender.org both have many good tutorials.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I would just do it in 2D graphics myself. 

Edit:  A quick go at the Hexagon modeled box and spiral with a Carrara render.  Needs a few more tweaks to meet standards, but it’s a workable solution in my opinion.

 

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Posted: 14 July 2012 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I would have done something similar…in the 3D model simply add circular planes (small) right where you want holes to show and wires to poke thru; just above the surface of the notebook cover.

Use a black shader on the circular shapes to make them look like deep holes.  If closeup, maybe use a shader that has an arch of dark gray and gradient to black to show greater reality.

But I think the above render with texture map “holes” looks very good.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 11:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Fully agree that faking with texture is the most efficient way t go, but yes, if you really wanted to make physical holes, Booleans would do it, but you would need to add a lot of mesh to define the edges of the holes.  Starting from scratch, the best bet is to make a grid, delete the polys for the holes and give it thickness.

When I was using Anim8or, which doesn’t have Boolean, we discovered a technique which works just as well in Hex and called it “fake Boolean” .  You select two opposing facets and bridge them - gives a very clean cut, without any ugly mesh distortion .

BTW are you the illustrator/cartoonist who created the most amazing sculpture of a head in Hex that I have ever seen?

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Posted: 14 July 2012 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Woops - picture red face

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Posted: 15 July 2012 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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DougS - 14 July 2012 03:16 PM

I would have done something similar…in the 3D model simply add circular planes (small) right where you want holes to show and wires to poke thru; just above the surface of the notebook cover.

Use a black shader on the circular shapes to make them look like deep holes.  If closeup, maybe use a shader that has an arch of dark gray and gradient to black to show greater reality.

But I think the above render with texture map “holes” looks very good.

Yup, those suggestions you gave work as well.


Sometimes I use Adobe Illustrator or Xara Graphic Designer to put in Boolean holes in the artwork.  They are preserved when you assign the texture (32 bit png) to the mesh and allow lighting and shadows to act on the mesh normally.

In the image below is a close up of my previous image.  I used Xara Graphics Designer to cut boolean holes into the image.

 

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