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All I ask is that Vendors Use The same folder name for each catagory on their products.
Posted: 14 July 2012 05:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Pendraia - 14 July 2012 04:27 PM

...I think that without the UI in the form of Shadermixer this wouldn’t be happening. Isn’t this evidence of what you have both been talking about earlier in the thread about the importance of a good user interface?

Well it’s an extension of what I was talking about actually. I hadn’t delved into this part but yes. Good user interfaces are like a pool with a shallow end and a deep end. Some people never go into the deep end and are happy, others go straight for it. But the part that you are referring to is also an important constituent, expanding the functionality of the deep end by giving it a nice slope. In the Linux/Unix world, new functionality was provided fastest with a command line interface that wasn’t easy to remember or comprehend for the casual to semi pro who didn’t use that functionality regularly and understand the workings behind it (API’s and scripting fall into this category.) This is always the fastest way to slap together new functionality, and adapt it in a fast changing development cycle. However, GUI’s are a critical step in moving that functionality to a wider audience. Early GUI’s in any product or function’s life cycle is subject to a lot of change and refinement. Refining that GUI is an ongoing process who’s goal is to move the functionality to an ever wider group of people. As a product matures, the GUI stabilizes some but should never become totally stagnant. Too much change overwhelms casual users, not enough renders it obsolete. It’s a balancing act. I should point out that this varies in a given software package depending on what part of the GUI we are talking about. The basic interface is the first to stabilize, whereas there are often areas at mid level stabilization and complexity,) low level (stabilization, higher level functional complexity) and no (stabilization as GUI doesn’t exist, highest potential functionality for those who can operate in this playground (scripted/API)) at any given time.
 
Another point you bring up is that at each stage of moving functionality to a wider audience, it increases the people who can use the product creatively rather than simply working on the underlying technology. That is, some of the best shaders will come from artists who either can’t or don’t want to be bothered working on the underlying framework or wrestling with overly technical procedures.

And, if it’s hard to understand.. it’s a failure on the part of the person trying to communicate the idea, so I apologize for that smile

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Posted: 14 July 2012 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Gedd - 14 July 2012 05:17 PM

And, if it’s hard to understand.. it’s a failure on the part of the person trying to communicate the idea, so I apologize for that smile

No need to apologise some of it is just that I don’t have the same background in programming that the two of you have.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 11:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Kendall Sears - 14 July 2012 03:55 PM


Or changing the paradigm. grin


OK, so that’s not likely to happen in this demographic…  One can still hope.  grin


Kendall


Okay, I get it. Blame users for 90% of the problem and DAZ (and Poser) for the rest. Impugn the artists among us and those who have paid good money for their content and wish to have a certain amount of control over it. Impugn users as non-professional because many of them neither need nor want to deal with the technical issues that DAZ has so generously given them yet at the same time ignore the benefit to the community and field of those who have delved into that ‘heavy’ technical stuff.


Oh, and ignore the fact that DAZ actually knows its customers and the value of each one. From the artist who wants the program to be so easy to use that it essentially disappears while he’s in The Zone to the curious and/or hungry ones who want to produce content and become vendors themselves. From those who view 3D as part of the means to an end to those who believe mastering the technical aspects of using 3D in all its glory is the only way to go. Every single one of them is valuable to DAZ.


Insulting or not at least you understand that we are a demographic. Please tell that to Microsoft who’s one-size-fits-all save-the-user-from-himself (sounds familiar) win7 has not only kept the stupidity of assuming all tif and jpg files are photos but won’t allow you to sort them in thumbnail view in Explorer.


I weep for the future if the ‘credentialed’ ones continue down this path.

 

 

 

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Posted: 15 July 2012 12:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Spit - 14 July 2012 11:49 PM
Kendall Sears - 14 July 2012 03:55 PM


Or changing the paradigm. grin


OK, so that’s not likely to happen in this demographic…  One can still hope.  grin


Kendall


Okay, I get it. Blame users for 90% of the problem and DAZ (and Poser) for the rest. Impugn the artists among us and those who have paid good money for their content and wish to have a certain amount of control over it. Impugn users as non-professional because many of them neither need nor want to deal with the technical issues that DAZ has so generously given them yet at the same time ignore the benefit to the community and field of those who have delved into that ‘heavy’ technical stuff.


Which is it?  “neither need or want to deal with technical issues” or “wish to have control over”?  The two are somewhat, if not completely, exclusive of each other.


Also, DAZ didn’t give anyone the technical issues.  They existed long before DS was created.  Studio created it’s own areas to try to NOT get involved with the Poser areas.  It was the users that dragged DAZ into that arena, thank them.  Studio could easily support the content without the Poser areas, but the users didn’t want to split the content, nor maintain two areas.


I’m advocating putting the content into a format that keeps the “artist” from ever having to deal technically with it ever again.  No more bad/ugly paths, all related pieces readily available by reference, only 1 area of the disk ever being used by the content data.  You’ve turned my argument around.


Kendall

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Posted: 15 July 2012 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

Which is it?  “neither need or want to deal with technical issues” or “wish to have control over”?  The two are somewhat, if not completely, exclusive of each other.

I think he’s saying the community is made of both types.

Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

I’m advocating putting the content into a format that keeps the “artist” from ever having to deal technically with it ever again.

Exactly because the community is made of (actually a range) of types, this approach would be doing some a big favor while creating a problem for others.

—————————————————
(passes out the happy cactus juice and chocolates)

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Posted: 15 July 2012 03:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Spit - 14 July 2012 11:49 PM

... if the ‘credentialed’ ones ...

Everyone’s opinion is valid on what works for them, and no one should feel that they need some special credentials to have a valid opinion on something such as design concepts they feel would work for them. On an equal note, anytime a discussion falls into a p*ssing match on who has what credentials, it’s usually lost all value ;p

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Posted: 15 July 2012 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Gedd - 15 July 2012 03:13 AM
Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

Which is it?  “neither need or want to deal with technical issues” or “wish to have control over”?  The two are somewhat, if not completely, exclusive of each other.

I think he’s saying the community is made of both types.

Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

I’m advocating putting the content into a format that keeps the “artist” from ever having to deal technically with it ever again.

Exactly because the community is made of (actually a range) of types, this approach would be doing some a big favor while creating a problem for others.

But it would be safe to assume that those that it would cause problems for are those most capable of working through the problems.  No?  Someone like myself, and probably you, would have few problems getting at what we needed in the base situation.  At the same time, we’d need to extract the data, work with it, and then submit it back to the DBMS for inclusion into the DB.  During the submission process, validation is done by both the schema (field types etc), as well as by any integrity checks installed to keep incorrect data from being introduced.  A bit of a safety net for those “Oops” times.  What programmer, or admin, hasn’t typed a wildcard too early in a filename and immediately wished that there was a check in place to stop that delete from happening?  grin


Kendall

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Posted: 15 July 2012 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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I have to agree with Spit here Kendall, separating users from getting direct access to their data isn’t the answer imo.

I think the answer might be scripts/apps which automate cleaning up some of the data outside of the DS environment. I use one program to tag my audio files and another to play them. This separation of functionality and tools works for me. Locking stuff up in a given application means I couldn’t have this dynamic environment.

I think the important thing here is, the framework that works for banks doesn’t fit environments like this like driving a backhoe to the grocery store isn’t really a good fit.

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Posted: 15 July 2012 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Gedd - 15 July 2012 03:23 AM
Spit - 14 July 2012 11:49 PM

... if the ‘credentialed’ ones ...

Everyone’s opinion is valid on what works for them, and no one should feel that they need some special credentials to have a valid opinion on something such as design concepts they feel would work for them. On an equal note, anytime a discussion falls into a p*ssing match on who has what credentials, it’s usually lost all value ;p


By ‘credentialed’ I mean Microsoft.


BTW, I’m a she. 


I was a programmer and know how users can be but I also know that there will always be users and feeling antagonistic towards them is counterproductive. And because I also taught Poser I understand that there are users who, especially when starting out, are actually afraid of doing something wrong, of breaking the program. They need to feel comfortable and secure. My first Poser lesson was having them make a ‘mistake’ that I told them to do without telling them it was a mistake then letting them laugh at the consequences and see it really wasn’t so terrifying to do something wrong. Yadda yadda.

 

 

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Posted: 15 July 2012 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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Spit - 15 July 2012 05:58 AM

BTW, I’m a she.

Hehe, sorry bout that, hard to tell w nicks… I use ‘he’ in the generic sense like ‘you guys’ for male/female.

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Posted: 15 July 2012 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Kerya - 14 July 2012 01:11 AM

Hokulea: I am using DS since 1.2 ... LOL
Anyway, DS4 doesn’t stop me using “View as Tree”. Content Tab, the little icon with the lines in the upper right corner.
Tree always makes sense to me. But I am installing to a Temporary folder and rename folders to my wishes, so I really do know what is where.

Lol, thank you. I haven’t tried Tree view yet since the content tutorials I’ve seen have specifically mentioned not to use it.


As a new DS user, I have to say that I do like how content is organized in “Smart Content” more than “Content Library”.  I find Smart Content easier to understand and use.  I also think the metadata concept makes a lot of sense as far as content organization goes.  The problem lies in how that metadata is structured as regards to consistency between products and vendors.


Case in point is the recent PC freebie “Steam Truck Red Bizon”.  I don’t remember what forum thread it was on but I did copy part of the post to use as reference:

 

“The metadata don’t work because there are wrong paths (as in the attached mage) in the DAZ_3D_14606_Steam_Truck_Red_Bizon.dsx file.

With a editor, like for example Notepad++, open this file and remove


Petipet/


from every


<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Props/Petipet/Steampunk Truck/XXXX”>
<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Pose/Petipet/Steampunk Truck/XXXX”>
<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Character/Petipet/Steampunk Truck/Truck.cr2”>


making it


<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Props/Steampunk Truck/XXXX”>
<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Pose/Steampunk Truck/XXXX”>
<Asset VALUE=“runtime/libraries/Character/Steampunk Truck/Truck.cr2”> “


For Smart Content to work, vendors need to follow defined metadata naming conventions that result in a consistent user experience.

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Posted: 15 July 2012 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Hokulea - 15 July 2012 11:39 AM

I haven’t tried Tree view yet since the content tutorials I’ve seen have specifically mentioned not to use it.

I felt I had to jump in here: did those tutorials say why not to use View As Tree?

To explain where I’m coming from, I arrange my content in a similar way as Kerya does, and I’ve used the same system in D|S 1, 2, 3 and now 4. In fact, I’ve been with D|S longer than that, I used a few of the beta versions before v1.0 came out. Long before Smart Content and the CMS was even a twinkle in the eye of the DAZ programmers. Never used Categories, never used Smart Content, never missed them. The system I’ve worked out over the last several years works for me, letting me find content mostly fairly easily and quickly. The only problems I have are in the parts of my old Poser runtimes that I haven’t yet completely switched over to my manual arrangement.

Of course, this is completely incompatible with Smart Content, its metadata, and the CMS. If I were ever to switch over, I’d probably have to scrub my entire very large content collection, re-install, and get used to a very different workflow. Apart from the non-DAZ content, which mostly doesn’t have metadata. Apart from all my freebies, ditto. Apart from all the old DAZ stuff I still use, ditto. (Remembering all the time that none of this will ever appear in Smart Content anyway unless someone creates metadata for it.) I’m happy with my current setup, I see no need to change.

The manual system is an alternative to Smart Content, that’s all. One that doesn’t depend on a database that can corrupt, or a CMS service that is known to be finicky about the systems it’ll run on. The only drawback is that it’s a bit of a headache to convert a large existing content collection: and it helps a lot if you don’t use Poser (I never re-installed Poser after my last computer upgrade) or Carrara, or any other program that expects the Runtime to be set up so Poser can understand it.

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Posted: 16 July 2012 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 03:25 AM
Gedd - 15 July 2012 03:13 AM
Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

Which is it?  “neither need or want to deal with technical issues” or “wish to have control over”?  The two are somewhat, if not completely, exclusive of each other.

I think he’s saying the community is made of both types.

Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

I’m advocating putting the content into a format that keeps the “artist” from ever having to deal technically with it ever again.

Exactly because the community is made of (actually a range) of types, this approach would be doing some a big favor while creating a problem for others.

But it would be safe to assume that those that it would cause problems for are those most capable of working through the problems.  No?  Someone like myself, and probably you, would have few problems getting at what we needed in the base situation.  At the same time, we’d need to extract the data, work with it, and then submit it back to the DBMS for inclusion into the DB.  During the submission process, validation is done by both the schema (field types etc), as well as by any integrity checks installed to keep incorrect data from being introduced.  A bit of a safety net for those “Oops” times.  What programmer, or admin, hasn’t typed a wildcard too early in a filename and immediately wished that there was a check in place to stop that delete from happening?  grin


Kendall

So in your future only people that know about databases are able to correct errors?
And there will be errors. Daz can’t even be consistent about DazOriginals - not talking about PA items.
Do you have the dream home? Some rooms are in Environments Architecture, some are in Props Architecture ... do you really want to rely on a human to put things in a consistent way in the same place?
I don’t.
I am not a special specialist like you. With Poser files I can correct errors myself. With a “everything in a database” I would have to rely on others.
Not a nice scenario, not at all.

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Posted: 16 July 2012 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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Kerya - 16 July 2012 03:53 AM
Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 03:25 AM
Gedd - 15 July 2012 03:13 AM
Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

Which is it?  “neither need or want to deal with technical issues” or “wish to have control over”?  The two are somewhat, if not completely, exclusive of each other.

I think he’s saying the community is made of both types.

Kendall Sears - 15 July 2012 12:02 AM

I’m advocating putting the content into a format that keeps the “artist” from ever having to deal technically with it ever again.

Exactly because the community is made of (actually a range) of types, this approach would be doing some a big favor while creating a problem for others.

But it would be safe to assume that those that it would cause problems for are those most capable of working through the problems.  No?  Someone like myself, and probably you, would have few problems getting at what we needed in the base situation.  At the same time, we’d need to extract the data, work with it, and then submit it back to the DBMS for inclusion into the DB.  During the submission process, validation is done by both the schema (field types etc), as well as by any integrity checks installed to keep incorrect data from being introduced.  A bit of a safety net for those “Oops” times.  What programmer, or admin, hasn’t typed a wildcard too early in a filename and immediately wished that there was a check in place to stop that delete from happening?  grin


Kendall

So in your future only people that know about databases are able to correct errors?
And there will be errors. Daz can’t even be consistent about DazOriginals - not talking about PA items.
Do you have the dream home? Some rooms are in Environments Architecture, some are in Props Architecture ... do you really want to rely on a human to put things in a consistent way in the same place?
I don’t.
I am not a special specialist like you. With Poser files I can correct errors myself. With a “everything in a database” I would have to rely on others.
Not a nice scenario, not at all.


Of course not.  For those not technically capable, product updates and fixes would provide the primary methodology for fixes.  For those who are capable, a control interface would be used to make changes.  Also, there are fewer places/ways for database errors to occur.  The majority of errors are with paths being wrong/bad.  In a database this is not possible—there are no paths if there are no physical files.  The schema/tables only allow specific types of data to be stored.  There are also ways to provide for integrity checks upon insertion.


Kendall

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Posted: 16 July 2012 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Kendall Sears - 16 July 2012 05:40 AM

Of course not.  For those not technically capable, product updates and fixes would provide the primary methodology for fixes.  For those who are capable, a control interface would be used to make changes.  Also, there are fewer places/ways for database errors to occur.  The majority of errors are with paths being wrong/bad.  In a database this is not possible—there are no paths if there are no physical files.  The schema/tables only allow specific types of data to be stored.  There are also ways to provide for integrity checks upon insertion.


Kendall

OK, if you give me access to it (i.e. a tutorial how I can fix things) it does sound a bit better. I like Daz, really (or I wouldn’t be here), but I do trust their ability to “overturn the cart” from time to time. wink
I still prefer things to work in DazStudio and Poser. wink

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