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Look at my Hair: official thread [Commercial] RELEASED!
Posted: 12 October 2012 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 436 ]
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Pendraia - 12 October 2012 08:57 PM
Kendall Sears - 12 October 2012 08:55 PM
Pendraia - 12 October 2012 08:16 PM
Mattymanx - 12 October 2012 07:06 PM
MikeyFTL - 12 October 2012 02:06 PM

Cant wait. I thought fibermesh was going to be the next big thing for hair, but this looks infinitely better as far as ease and resolution.  Fibermesh hairs are too thick and unrealistic.

LAMH uses a capability that excists within 3Delight (if I remember Alessandro’s original explination) where as fiber mesh is a mesh and the end user has little contorl over it.

Thank you Alessandro for all your hard work.  I hope this pays off for you big time! :D

It’s my understanding that they are both based on using renderman curve primitives. The fibermesh can be done finer but you have a penalty cost in increased polys. If you have a look at Mec4D’s original thread you can find out more…

Add me to the list of people waiting for this…it will go straight into my trolley.

Nope.  Fibermesh is straight up geometry, not RiCurves as LAMH is using.

Kendall

I thought that it was based on the curves and converted to geometry…but it’s likely I got it wrong. Sorry if I did…

No problem.  According to Pixologic’s “About Fibermesh” white paper, zBrush generates standard render engine independent geometry.  When you consider that zBrush doesn’t use a Renderman Renderer, it makes sense that they wouldn’t use a technology from an unsupported software.  RiCurves are Renderman internal RiSpec devices.

Kendall

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Posted: 12 October 2012 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 437 ]
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Kendall Sears - 12 October 2012 09:05 PM
Pendraia - 12 October 2012 08:57 PM
Kendall Sears - 12 October 2012 08:55 PM
Pendraia - 12 October 2012 08:16 PM
Mattymanx - 12 October 2012 07:06 PM
MikeyFTL - 12 October 2012 02:06 PM

Cant wait. I thought fibermesh was going to be the next big thing for hair, but this looks infinitely better as far as ease and resolution.  Fibermesh hairs are too thick and unrealistic.

LAMH uses a capability that excists within 3Delight (if I remember Alessandro’s original explination) where as fiber mesh is a mesh and the end user has little contorl over it.

Thank you Alessandro for all your hard work.  I hope this pays off for you big time! :D

It’s my understanding that they are both based on using renderman curve primitives. The fibermesh can be done finer but you have a penalty cost in increased polys. If you have a look at Mec4D’s original thread you can find out more…

Add me to the list of people waiting for this…it will go straight into my trolley.

Nope.  Fibermesh is straight up geometry, not RiCurves as LAMH is using.

Kendall

I thought that it was based on the curves and converted to geometry…but it’s likely I got it wrong. Sorry if I did…

No problem.  According to Pixologic’s “About Fibermesh” white paper, zBrush generates standard render engine independent geometry.  When you consider that zBrush doesn’t use a Renderman Renderer, it makes sense that they wouldn’t use a technology from an unsupported software.  RiCurves are Renderman internal RiSpec devices.

Kendall

Fair enough…I probably read something and misunderstood it.

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Posted: 12 October 2012 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 438 ]
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

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Posted: 13 October 2012 02:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 439 ]
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IndigoTea - 12 October 2012 11:43 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

It can do also that, yes.

As Kendall explained, the hair styled in LAMH can be used as RenderMan curves (meaning that they can be exported and rendered to Studio as such) or, if you prefer to render in an external application, you can export them as geometry. In this case, LAMH will generate a collection of .obj files and textures, and export even the models currently in the Studio scene.
To make an example, if you styled some hair for Genesis, upon exporting you’ll get the Genesis obj plus all the textures, and the hair obj files plus the hair generated textures (1 obj and 1 texture for each shave group).

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Posted: 13 October 2012 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 440 ]
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Thank you - there’s been so many responses on this thread that I didn’t keep up with all of them. Looking forward to this product’s release!

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Posted: 13 October 2012 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 441 ]
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And what would be the size of the obj and the count of polygons for example ? I suspect it will be not small and you got the same issue as when you export high resolution geometry from Zbrush . Zbrush render the hair so nice as it use sub-d for rendering converting lower polys 2-3 times while rendering of the fibers and simple hair set can extend over 1 million poly very quick and even higher but Zbrush use pixel technology that can handle it very easy that why the company name come from :: Pixologic .::
Zbrush fiber mesh can be exported as geometry and curve for very fine realistic hair but the size would be huge , it render fine anywhere else but for DS the most realistic look is just to huge that why most users of Maya convert the fibers to splines to avoid the polygons count . it is possible to create the most realistic hair ever as I did this before but as Pen mentioned it will cost you the memory ( in DS only ), that why your plugin is DS friendly and take the advance of the RenderMan curves and I can’t wait for the finale , and there should be no comparison as both are total different world and yes everyone try to make the fiber hair as small as possible in size , but that is only to make it DS friendly and not what you actually can do with .
so Alessandro keep up the great work !

Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 02:39 AM
IndigoTea - 12 October 2012 11:43 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

It can do also that, yes.

As Kendall explained, the hair styled in LAMH can be used as RenderMan curves (meaning that they can be exported and rendered to Studio as such) or, if you prefer to render in an external application, you can export them as geometry. In this case, LAMH will generate a collection of .obj files and textures, and export even the models currently in the Studio scene.
To make an example, if you styled some hair for Genesis, upon exporting you’ll get the Genesis obj plus all the textures, and the hair obj files plus the hair generated textures (1 obj and 1 texture for each shave group).

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Posted: 13 October 2012 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 442 ]
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Mec4D - 13 October 2012 09:06 AM

And what would be the size of the obj and the count of polygons for example ? I suspect it will be not small and you got the same issue as when you export high resolution geometry from Zbrush . Zbrush render the hair so nice as it use sub-d for rendering converting lower polys 2-3 times while rendering of the fibers and simple hair set can extend over 1 million poly very quick and even higher but Zbrush use pixel technology that can handle it very easy that why the company name come from :: Pixologic .::
Zbrush fiber mesh can be exported as geometry and curve for very fine realistic hair but the size would be huge , it render fine anywhere else but for DS the most realistic look is just to huge that why most users of Maya convert the fibers to splines to avoid the polygons count . it is possible to create the most realistic hair ever as I did this before but as Pen mentioned it will cost you the memory ( in DS only ), that why your plugin is DS friendly and take the advance of the RenderMan curves and I can’t wait for the finale , and there should be no comparison as both are total different world and yes everyone try to make the fiber hair as small as possible in size , but that is only to make it DS friendly and not what you actually can do with .
so Alessandro keep up the great work !

Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 02:39 AM
IndigoTea - 12 October 2012 11:43 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

It can do also that, yes.

As Kendall explained, the hair styled in LAMH can be used as RenderMan curves (meaning that they can be exported and rendered to Studio as such) or, if you prefer to render in an external application, you can export them as geometry. In this case, LAMH will generate a collection of .obj files and textures, and export even the models currently in the Studio scene.
To make an example, if you styled some hair for Genesis, upon exporting you’ll get the Genesis obj plus all the textures, and the hair obj files plus the hair generated textures (1 obj and 1 texture for each shave group).

Hi Cath, the size of the exported obj files will be directly proportional to the number of hair and the hair complexity used.
It is no different from what you’d expect from other applications, meaning that the geometry exported is made of quads and there is no “magic” in it that would allow to squeeze or reduce the size.
As you mentioned ZBrush fibermesh renders are nice because they do not render the geometry straigth away: the render engine subdivides it making it smoother. But if you export the fiber into .obj then, again, better have a 64bit system with plenty of ram especially if you are going to use a dense fur.

That is why RenderMan curves are so cool: the render engine handles them similarly to what happens in ZBrush, instead of relying solely on pure geometry.

However, this doesn’t mean that exporting .obj files is a no-go; there are several settings and expedients that allow to setup the exported model properly. When creating an animal fur, for example, a trick is to use larger root and tip widths and reduce the hair count.
Also, LAMH allows to reduce the hair complexity so that, for example, if each hair is made of 16 quads, you can choose to reduce that by a certain percentage. Consider for instance very short hair or fur, 4 quads maybe sufficient to give the proper detail.

To give you some numbers, a Genesis hair model made of 120.000 (and so the average human hair count), each made of 16 quads will produce an .obj file of about 200 Mbytes. Such file would require an average about 1.7GB of RAM when rendered…

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Posted: 13 October 2012 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 443 ]
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Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 11:15 AM
Mec4D - 13 October 2012 09:06 AM

And what would be the size of the obj and the count of polygons for example ? I suspect it will be not small and you got the same issue as when you export high resolution geometry from Zbrush . Zbrush render the hair so nice as it use sub-d for rendering converting lower polys 2-3 times while rendering of the fibers and simple hair set can extend over 1 million poly very quick and even higher but Zbrush use pixel technology that can handle it very easy that why the company name come from :: Pixologic .::
Zbrush fiber mesh can be exported as geometry and curve for very fine realistic hair but the size would be huge , it render fine anywhere else but for DS the most realistic look is just to huge that why most users of Maya convert the fibers to splines to avoid the polygons count . it is possible to create the most realistic hair ever as I did this before but as Pen mentioned it will cost you the memory ( in DS only ), that why your plugin is DS friendly and take the advance of the RenderMan curves and I can’t wait for the finale , and there should be no comparison as both are total different world and yes everyone try to make the fiber hair as small as possible in size , but that is only to make it DS friendly and not what you actually can do with .
so Alessandro keep up the great work !

Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 02:39 AM
IndigoTea - 12 October 2012 11:43 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

It can do also that, yes.

As Kendall explained, the hair styled in LAMH can be used as RenderMan curves (meaning that they can be exported and rendered to Studio as such) or, if you prefer to render in an external application, you can export them as geometry. In this case, LAMH will generate a collection of .obj files and textures, and export even the models currently in the Studio scene.
To make an example, if you styled some hair for Genesis, upon exporting you’ll get the Genesis obj plus all the textures, and the hair obj files plus the hair generated textures (1 obj and 1 texture for each shave group).

Hi Cath, the size of the exported obj files will be directly proportional to the number of hair and the hair complexity used.
It is no different from what you’d expect from other applications, meaning that the geometry exported is made of quads and there is no “magic” in it that would allow to squeeze or reduce the size.
As you mentioned ZBrush fibermesh renders are nice because they do not render the geometry straigth away: the render engine subdivides it making it smoother. But if you export the fiber into .obj then, again, better have a 64bit system with plenty of ram especially if you are going to use a dense fur.

That is why RenderMan curves are so cool: the render engine handles them similarly to what happens in ZBrush, instead of relying solely on pure geometry.

However, this doesn’t mean that exporting .obj files is a no-go; there are several settings and expedients that allow to setup the exported model properly. When creating an animal fur, for example, a trick is to use larger root and tip widths and reduce the hair count.
Also, LAMH allows to reduce the hair complexity so that, for example, if each hair is made of 16 quads, you can choose to reduce that by a certain percentage. Consider for instance very short hair or fur, 4 quads maybe sufficient to give the proper detail.

To give you some numbers, a Genesis hair model made of 120.000 (and so the average human hair count), each made of 16 quads will produce an .obj file of about 200 Mbytes. Such file would require an average about 1.7GB of RAM when rendered…

A little trivia on hair, and something to help folks make more realistic hair:  redheads have around 90,000 hairs, blondes around 150,000, and brunettes fall in between. (varied sources, see this for starting reference: http://hairfoundation.org/hair-library/article-hair-color.htm)

Also, healthy humans lose about 50-100 hairs a day, and each follicle is capable of generating ~20 hairs over a lifetime.  (references available for those interested)  Healthy humans’ hair can grow ~12mm/month (about 1/2 inch).  Also, hair density will vary by ethnicity and age.

Kendall

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Posted: 13 October 2012 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 444 ]
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Pity I was never able to find the hair density of some animal furs. That would be very interesting to know…

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Posted: 13 October 2012 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 445 ]
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Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 11:49 AM

Pity I was never able to find the hair density of some animal furs. That would be very interesting to know…

For a non-deadtree reference:  http://www.furminator.com/science-of-fur

Kendall

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Posted: 13 October 2012 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 446 ]
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Interesting link, thanks.

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Posted: 13 October 2012 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 447 ]
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I agree , I learned a lot of tricks already and the advantage of Sub-D in DS is another story not to mention generic smooth for making the hair ticker or finer added an extra to the workflow , for me personal it is just fun but I could have a lot more fun in DS with your plugin so i hope it will be done before Christmas smile

Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 11:15 AM
Mec4D - 13 October 2012 09:06 AM

And what would be the size of the obj and the count of polygons for example ? I suspect it will be not small and you got the same issue as when you export high resolution geometry from Zbrush . Zbrush render the hair so nice as it use sub-d for rendering converting lower polys 2-3 times while rendering of the fibers and simple hair set can extend over 1 million poly very quick and even higher but Zbrush use pixel technology that can handle it very easy that why the company name come from :: Pixologic .::
Zbrush fiber mesh can be exported as geometry and curve for very fine realistic hair but the size would be huge , it render fine anywhere else but for DS the most realistic look is just to huge that why most users of Maya convert the fibers to splines to avoid the polygons count . it is possible to create the most realistic hair ever as I did this before but as Pen mentioned it will cost you the memory ( in DS only ), that why your plugin is DS friendly and take the advance of the RenderMan curves and I can’t wait for the finale , and there should be no comparison as both are total different world and yes everyone try to make the fiber hair as small as possible in size , but that is only to make it DS friendly and not what you actually can do with .
so Alessandro keep up the great work !

Alessandro_AM - 13 October 2012 02:39 AM
IndigoTea - 12 October 2012 11:43 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I see that LAMH will export as a mesh to render engines like Reality - or did that not work out?

It can do also that, yes.

As Kendall explained, the hair styled in LAMH can be used as RenderMan curves (meaning that they can be exported and rendered to Studio as such) or, if you prefer to render in an external application, you can export them as geometry. In this case, LAMH will generate a collection of .obj files and textures, and export even the models currently in the Studio scene.
To make an example, if you styled some hair for Genesis, upon exporting you’ll get the Genesis obj plus all the textures, and the hair obj files plus the hair generated textures (1 obj and 1 texture for each shave group).

Hi Cath, the size of the exported obj files will be directly proportional to the number of hair and the hair complexity used.
It is no different from what you’d expect from other applications, meaning that the geometry exported is made of quads and there is no “magic” in it that would allow to squeeze or reduce the size.
As you mentioned ZBrush fibermesh renders are nice because they do not render the geometry straigth away: the render engine subdivides it making it smoother. But if you export the fiber into .obj then, again, better have a 64bit system with plenty of ram especially if you are going to use a dense fur.

That is why RenderMan curves are so cool: the render engine handles them similarly to what happens in ZBrush, instead of relying solely on pure geometry.

However, this doesn’t mean that exporting .obj files is a no-go; there are several settings and expedients that allow to setup the exported model properly. When creating an animal fur, for example, a trick is to use larger root and tip widths and reduce the hair count.
Also, LAMH allows to reduce the hair complexity so that, for example, if each hair is made of 16 quads, you can choose to reduce that by a certain percentage. Consider for instance very short hair or fur, 4 quads maybe sufficient to give the proper detail.

To give you some numbers, a Genesis hair model made of 120.000 (and so the average human hair count), each made of 16 quads will produce an .obj file of about 200 Mbytes. Such file would require an average about 1.7GB of RAM when rendered…

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Posted: 13 October 2012 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 448 ]
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Density Map Set 2 This is all 1 shave group in which I meant the hair and beard were created in 1 shot, I could have made a seperate shave group for the beard and made it a little thicker in hair thickness and density, I might try that tomorrow with the same density so you can see the difference in the 2 and to show you can do different variations with the same density maps.

Steve.

**EDIT**

Just to add the one With thicker beard from the same maps.

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DensityHairBeard1.jpgNewBeardHair.jpgDensityHairBeardHEAD.jpgDensityHairBeard2.jpg
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Posted: 13 October 2012 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 449 ]
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That is so cool SalUK ,I’ve seen guys with hair like that thinning on top .

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Posted: 13 October 2012 06:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 450 ]
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carrie58 - 13 October 2012 05:55 PM

That is so cool SalUK ,I’ve seen guys with hair like that thinning on top .

Thanks Carrie yes me too.. smile Glad I still have my hair the weathers starting to turn cold here now..lol

I updated the previous post and added a new render of the thicker beard.

Steve.

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