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Tree question
Posted: 19 February 2014 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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goshtac - 18 February 2014 03:21 PM

Hi Guys;

I am an idiot - I downloaded the Arbaro program that Horo talked about and other people apparently now able to use, But for the life of me I cannot get the program to start. I downloaded and unzipped the files twice, but when I try to click on the GUI listed, all I get is error messages. I know the program is written in JAVA and I must admit it has been awhile since I messed with JAVA which is installed on my system.

Any ideas what I may be doing wrong trying to get this program to start or run. I am running WIN 7 Pro 64 bit.

Thanks guys - looks like a good program if I can ever get it to run.

Bruce

I was busy doing backups and had my pc tied up last night (both of them) and was going to post this today but I see you already got it running. But here it is in case someone else has an issue.

http://www.java.com/en/download/installed.jsp
You have the recommended Java installed (Version 7 Update 51).  (My version check)

http://www.povray.org/
http://www.povray.org/download/

arbaro.jar (This is the executable)

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Posted: 19 February 2014 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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TheSavage64 - 18 February 2014 06:12 PM

Kind of got some needles on the trees…. not exactly right but some tweaking could get them more accurate.

Excellent job Savage64. I may get some time to play today. I have been burning a 4 wicked candle at both ends here lately but soon I will get more time to work on this stuff. Had a major pc crash (bad drive) a week ago and thought I had it going and was reinstalling all the files when the new (used) drive also bit the dust. So I am still rebuilding my older pc which is the one with all my important business stuff on it. Then of course the vehicle decide to blow a head gasket and I have been back and forth from the pc to the repairs down at the workshop. Found a cracked head so got one on order…A bunch of other things breaking etc so I guess once I get caught up I should have a few years of smooth sailing. smile
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Posted: 21 February 2014 05:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Hello all.
Let me make some remarks on the Tree Lab. Of course, Bryce Trees are not perfect. However, in any other program trees are not perfect, unless they are made ​​by hand. As an example, here http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=4751 Howev.er, these trees have a lot of polygons.
If you work carefully, then Bryce can achieve good results. Especially for background or mid-ground. I created 22 coniferous trees in the Tree Lab for 4 hours.
Here are some results after hours of work in the Tree Lab. Pine with long needles. Trees are only 270 to 500 polygons.
Incidentally, Arbaro is good program. I once tried to work in it.

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Posted: 21 February 2014 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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slepalex - 21 February 2014 05:10 AM

Hello all.
Let me make some remarks on the Tree Lab. Of course, Bryce Trees are not perfect. However, in any other program trees are not perfect, unless they are made ​​by hand. As an example, here http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=4751 Howev.er, these trees have a lot of polygons.
If you work carefully, then Bryce can achieve good results. Especially for background or mid-ground. I created 22 coniferous trees in the Tree Lab for 4 hours.
Here are some results after hours of work in the Tree Lab. Pine with long needles. Trees are only 270 to 500 polygons.
Incidentally, Arbaro is good program. I once tried to work in it.

Agree with you Alex, I usually use some bryce trees for the background of my renders but I’ve got some of my picture that use lots of Bryce trees like in my last post :  http://www.daz3d.com/forums/index.php?&ACT=50&fid=38&aid=119383_vdz1hl0FxPKkC2Yochz8&board_id=1

I’ve try plant factory PLE but haven’t got good fellings with it, so.. trying to produce a single tree that look like the one that’s shoot in a photo is very difficult with any software, even with Bryce.

However, you’ve done a great job here with your conifers!

Oh and be welcome Slepalex, this is your first post at Daz Forum! thanks for joining the Bryce community!

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Posted: 21 February 2014 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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c-ram - 21 February 2014 05:47 AM
slepalex - 21 February 2014 05:10 AM

Agree with you Alex, I usually use some bryce trees for the background of my renders but I’ve got some of my picture that use lots of Bryce trees like in my last post :  http://www.daz3d.com/forums/index.php?&ACT=50&fid=38&aid=119383_vdz1hl0FxPKkC2Yochz8&board_id=1

Oh and be welcome Slepalex, this is your first post at Daz Forum! thanks for joining the Bryce community!

Yes, I saw that your work, c-ram. Very impressive. I did not have the patience and the power of the computer to do so. I always follow the Daz forum.

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Posted: 21 February 2014 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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@slepalex - great to see you here! Your work has always been an inspiration to me. Welcome to these Bryce forums. Great work on the trees.

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Posted: 21 February 2014 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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slepalex - 21 February 2014 05:10 AM

Hello all.
Let me make some remarks on the Tree Lab. Of course, Bryce Trees are not perfect. However, in any other program trees are not perfect, unless they are made ​​by hand. As an example, here http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=4751 Howev.er, these trees have a lot of polygons.
If you work carefully, then Bryce can achieve good results. Especially for background or mid-ground. I created 22 coniferous trees in the Tree Lab for 4 hours.
Here are some results after hours of work in the Tree Lab. Pine with long needles. Trees are only 270 to 500 polygons.
Incidentally, Arbaro is good program. I once tried to work in it.

Nice job on the trees. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. Thanks for sharing.
theschemer

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Posted: 22 February 2014 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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When working with Bryce, thinking “outside the box” is a skill we have to adopt early on and never let go of.

If I were attempting a tree like the examples shown above I would use Boolean Operations to accomplish it.

Step 1: Create a pine tree in the tree lab that resembles the top part of your desired tree. In the Attributes, enable this tree as a Positive. Save the material you used as the trunk in your Library.

Step 2. Create a Cube. Enable this Cube as a Negative. Place this cube at the base of your tree so that it can hide the roots. Group the tree with the cube and it should create a cut off such that the roots are no longer visible in the render.

Step 3: Now we need to create the look of the extended limbless trunk. One could use a column of metaballs, which can then be grouped and then be collapsed so that it becomes a true single mesh object . I’d export then re-import this model as an obj. Just line up the top of your metaball column with the new apparent base of your pine tree. Apply the same material to the extended trunk as you did the trunk of the pine tree, and the result should look quite decent.

Perhaps an even easier trunk could be made by using one of the tapered cylinders in the Additional Primitives. Either way, this tree can be done.

There could potentially be some slight inconsistency at the point where the original tree becomes joined with the faux trunk, but these are relatively minor considerations. I think one could make it less noticeable by cutting off the trunk of the original tree a little higher up well above where the roots are. By cutting away more of the original trunk you can hide the “seam” within the branches so that the extended trunk remains smooth looking all the remainder of the way down.

The new dual trees we have in Bryce 7 libraries show how the basic idea of gluing trees together can create new levels of naturalistic complexity. In theory, one could create almost any form of vegetation, though it may require some cleverness and multiple steps, still it can be done all within Bryce.

It helps to keep in mind that the creators of Bryce didnt necessarily have the opportunity to fully flesh out every tool. Often, Bryce’s available tools get part of the way there but not the rest, at least not in a direct sort of way. However the magic of Bryce for me is all the incredible stuff it can do indirectly, things you will not find in any manual.

What I’m saying is dont be NICE with Bryce. Start ABUSING the tools to see what surprises they may offer. Abuse boolean modeling by making booleans of trees…abuse the DTE to generate source images you can then export and apply as textures in Bryce or yet other programs…abuse cloud mats to make falling water or abuse a giant volumetric cube to create a hazy environment instead of always relying on the Sky Lab provided haze. Find unconventional uses for the available tools, and dont let the lack of a straightforward process put you off of your goal. Bryce is a riddle.

Once years ago I got into a rather heated discussion with another long time Bryce user about Bryce’s tool set. This person was kindly explaining to me how to “properly” use certain tools especially in the way of lighting. The idea was that the developers had a certain thing in mind when they introduced these tools so I would be wise to use the tools in the proper way. My argument was that if I only use the tools in the manner the developers intended, then the only results I will achieve will be those the developers intended for me to achieve, and since that is not the look I want, I must do things my own way.

Bryce provides enough options that if you dont want to, you dont have to use any of the “tools.” You can create your own sunlight with radials or domes, your own atmospheres with volumetric cubes and spheres, and lots of other stuff without ever entering the Sky Lab. 99% of the time the skylab haze is just fine, but one day you need a different more accurate haze model than the one the skylab provides so you build up your own atmosphere with fuzzy and volumetrics, and the result might end up more realistic than what the skylab would have done.

Fun fun

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Posted: 22 February 2014 12:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Rashad Carter - 22 February 2014 12:07 AM

Step 2. Create a Cube. Enable this Cube as a Negative. Place this cube at the base of your tree so that it can hide the roots. Group the tree with the cube and it should create a cut off such that the roots are no longer visible in the render.

Hi, Rashad!
I always read at a forum your speeches (I won’t be afraid this word) in good English. Therefore my online translator has no problems. I practically always agree with your conclusions. However show me result of sawing off of a root of a tree by means of Boolean operations! There is a strong wish to look!

 

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Posted: 22 February 2014 02:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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@Rashad - thinking out of the box is what we try all the time, though there are more ways outside than inside the box. I have asked myself often whether these are bugs, omissions in programming or deliberately hidden possibilities. The fun of Bryce is that it never ceases to amaze me with all it has up its sleeve.

One thing, however, I haven’t accomplished yet: boolean away the root of a Bryce tree. Metaballs just refuse to work. Like slepalex, I’d like to see how you make it work.

Trunks, branches and twigs, the wood, can be made transparent on one tree. In the second tree, you remove the foliage and with Segments you can create a stem, which you can stretch. The roots can always be burried. The problem now is the connect the foliage of the first tree to the wood on the second.

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Posted: 22 February 2014 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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slepalex - 22 February 2014 12:53 AM
Rashad Carter - 22 February 2014 12:07 AM

Step 2. Create a Cube. Enable this Cube as a Negative. Place this cube at the base of your tree so that it can hide the roots. Group the tree with the cube and it should create a cut off such that the roots are no longer visible in the render.

Hi, Rashad!
I always read at a forum your speeches (I won’t be afraid this word) in good English. Therefore my online translator has no problems. I practically always agree with your conclusions. However show me result of sawing off of a root of a tree by means of Boolean operations! There is a strong wish to look!

No problem. I have an example rendering now. But you are correct in that the tutorial above is missing something. In order for the tree to behave in a boolean manner, it must first be exported and then reimported as an OBJ. This I did not specify. But the goal was to do as much of it within Bryce as possible without exporting. And indeed the result we want is still possible.

In the example I have rendering now the roots are hidden by means of blend transparency, with an image to control the range of the transparency. I will explain in more detail below.

Image 1
This image is what the finished product looks like. Notice the extended trunk which is the 40% tapered cylinder from Additional Primitives. For the most part I used the steps written in the original tutorial but with one twist….

Image 2
Here is a series of three related images. We see the tree before the roots are removed, and we see the tree after they have been removed. Since the tree is resistant to boolean operations, I have instead employed blend transparency mapping for the trunk material.
The black and white image you see here is an alpha map that tells Bryce that the areas in white are opaque and the areas in black are transparent.

Image 3:
These are the Material Lab settings you will need to fit this map to your tree in exactly the right manner to hide the roots and nothing more. It is sort of peculiar looking but it does indeed work.

One last thing, remember that the tapered cylinder doesn’t need any transparency mapping, so when you copy the trunk material to the cylinder don’t forget to remove the opacity mapping.

I do apologize for skipping the exporting the original tree step in the first post. I should have remembered this blend-trans trick much sooner. Years ago I was tasked with solving the curved trunks for palms and this was how I did it but after several years my mind remembered the process as boolean, when indeed it was transparency that was used.

 

Edit:
Yep, Horo, Transparency it is if we want to work only in Bryce. I am so used to exporting and reimporting things that I forgot to mention that it wont cut the tree while it is still a bryce primitive.

 

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Posted: 22 February 2014 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Horo - 22 February 2014 02:39 AM

@Rashad - thinking out of the box is what we try all the time, though there are more ways outside than inside the box.

I agree, there are more ways outside than inside. And this is part of the beauty of Bryce and why some people love it and others don’t. Bryce rewards cleverness and diligence. It is a crude tool which I find a good thing. It does lack elegant solutions built in, but it provides the raw tools for us to come up with our own elegant solutions for lots of problems.

Horo - 22 February 2014 02:39 AM

I have asked myself often whether these are bugs, omissions in programming or deliberately hidden possibilities. The fun of Bryce is that it never ceases to amaze me with all it has up its sleeve.

Brilliant question. I’m convinced it is a little bit of both. Unfortunately, Bryce was never geared to produce results that look high end, which to me is somewhat sad. It was a tool designed to be fun to use moreso than to be professionally productive. Yet, it does have incredible power at times, more than one could explain away. IS the power the accident? Who knows. It was expected to be a beginner’s app. I really dont know if they considered what would happen to people once they became Bryce veterans, once they starting trying to do things outside of the original programming assumptions.

If I were to go further with the extended pine tree model, I’d export the whole thing into UV Mapper, I’d then use tricks to reimport the group as a single mesh object where leaves, truck, and e4xtended truck are forever glued into one object. Naturally I would need to set up the material zones ahead of time so they dont overlap, but such a tree would then be a fully complete item. IT is always best to try to turn the model into a single mesh, because as we know the instance lab has a bug where grouped objects don’t randomly rotate as they are supposed to, so all the resulting trees will be facing the same direction. But I’ve not got the patience at the moment to write up another UV Mapper tutorial.

Which brings me back to why I really want an update for Bryce soon. I want the instancing lab to be fixed, as well as other things that should be relatively simple to accomplish so long as there is ample time. If only the IL woudl rotate grouped objects, lots of current hurdles would be unnecessary. I can only hope.

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Posted: 22 February 2014 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Well, Rashad! QED! Boolean operations are not possible with Bryce Trees. Export-import - it is not our method. To get a good quality, you need millions of polygons, and this is not acceptable.
I immediately did not upload this picture. I wanted recognition from Rashad that the Boolean operations can not be performed. But I prepared it. This root pruning with a mask in the channel transparency. Right there is a bad result of Boolean operations.  In the center and the left is the results of work in the Edit Texture and DTE. However, in the root I still remained some artifacts. I found a way to fix them. In Mat Lab refractive index must be set to 0.

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Posted: 22 February 2014 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Posted: 22 February 2014 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Rashad Carter - 22 February 2014 02:58 AM

*snip*
In the example I have rendering now the roots are hidden by means of blend transparency, with an image to control the range of the transparency. I will explain in more detail below.

Image 1
This image is what the finished product looks like. Notice the extended trunk which is the 40% tapered cylinder from Additional Primitives. For the most part I used the steps written in the original tutorial but with one twist….

Image 2
Here is a series of three related images. We see the tree before the roots are removed, and we see the tree after they have been removed. Since the tree is resistant to boolean operations, I have instead employed blend transparency mapping for the trunk material.
The black and white image you see here is an alpha map that tells Bryce that the areas in white are opaque and the areas in black are transparent.

Image 3:
These are the Material Lab settings you will need to fit this map to your tree in exactly the right manner to hide the roots and nothing more. It is sort of peculiar looking but it does indeed work.

One last thing, remember that the tapered cylinder doesn’t need any transparency mapping, so when you copy the trunk material to the cylinder don’t forget to remove the opacity mapping.

I do apologize for skipping the exporting the original tree step in the first post. I should have remembered this blend-trans trick much sooner. Years ago I was tasked with solving the curved trunks for palms and this was how I did it but after several years my mind remembered the process as boolean, when indeed it was transparency that was used.

Edit:
Yep, Horo, Transparency it is if we want to work only in Bryce. I am so used to exporting and reimporting things that I forgot to mention that it wont cut the tree while it is still a bryce primitive.

I knew there was a way of doing that, and couldn’t remember how it worked. Thanks for refreshing my memory Rashad

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