Digital Art Zone

 
   
2 of 3
2
Trees and Roads
Posted: 15 February 2014 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3827
Joined  2004-10-01

This idea of Bruce is great, of course. Two things to keep in mind:

(1) the image doesn’t need to be in square aspect ratio. That’s just the way the TE displays it. If you have a 2:1 aspect ratio, it looks strange in the TE but if you scale X:Z also 2:1, everything is fine.

(2) The TE works in 16-bit greyscale. If you design terrains in a graphics application, make sure you do so in 16 or 48-bit, otherwise you get stairs. If you work with 48-bit, export it as 16-bit TIFF. Photoshop can do it.

[I wrote a small tool that converts 96-bit (HDR and TIFF) and 48-bit (TIFF) into TE compatible 16-bit TIFF. It is included in one of our products (Stylised Rendering) but it is a freebie bonus. I just haven’t had the time to publish it on my website.]

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  126
Joined  2005-08-28

Hi Horo:

Thanks for the encouragement and the information. Since my earlier post, I did a little more real world test and it didn’t come out too bad as it just took 15 mins from conception to final render. The only part I was not happy with is I tried to put sidewalks in and was too close to the sloping I had put into the gray scale terrain. But I see this as a fairly easy fix (Should have been sloped grass where the gray is)

I did this with city streets in mind that are surrounded by slightly raised grassy yards. Again, this was a bit quick and dirty of a rush job, so it has real need for improvement, but I have been pleased where the project / experiment is going..


Bruce

Image Attachments
Streets_abd_Yards_Test.jpg
 Signature 

Fan-atic over Bryce, DAZ Studio, Paint Shop Pro and my Photography
My Bryce Freebies http://www.sharecg.com/goshtac
My Art & Photography Web Site:    http://www.goshtac.com/
My Renderosity Hangout: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?userid=381287

cool smile   Bruce Davey /  aka GOSHTAC

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
Horo - 15 February 2014 02:41 AM

@theschemer - many parts of Bryce are written in proprietary Axiom. This is not the computer algebra system known today but a composite file management system created by Andrea Pessino and copyrighted 1995 by MetaTools. Very difficult to get information on it. I guess it’s some sort of a meta language. The advantage is that code written in it works on the Mac (Motorola) and PC (Intel). It is actually that Axiom code that is a hindrance to move forward to 64 bit. The rest of Bryce is written in C++ if I’m not mistaken.

Bryce does everything in memory. When you save a file, it is compressed in memory before it is written on the HD. Same if you load a scene. It gets into memory, then it is decompressed. So you can develop an elaborate scene and when you want to save it, Bryce crashes because there is no memory left to compress the scene and prepare the file. This is a bit unfortunate and in fact, you could build larger scenes in Bryce 5 because file compressing came with version 6. A bad move, in my opinion, because HD space is cheap.

Anyway, with 32 bit, you can represent numbers from -2G to +2G, hence only that much memory can be addressed. If made LAA, the sign is skipped so you get a total of 4 Giga. With 64 bit, 9 Exa can be addressed which is quite a bit ...

Hi Horo,
  Thanks for the info on the programming language used for Bryce. Hard drive space is indeed cheap, one could add a whole spare HD just for Bryce. smile I had to look up Exa. Yes that is a bunch. I think with the LAA I will be fine as I just want to create 3D backgrounds for use in iClone and try to make scenes that look like areas we have camped out etc in the past. Need to make sandy type dirt roads and pine forests and maybe a small pond and a river and a stream. Sounds all doable with Bryce. Just takes time to learn it.
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
goshtac - 15 February 2014 05:04 AM

Hi guys;

Just a thought on the roads aspect of this topic ( I think I mentioned this before, but maybe I should give it a try to see if it is feasible idea on terrain with roads, etc. )

Has anyone ever tried creating a terrain map (gray tones) and then in another layer such as in a program like PSP or Photoshop, etc. do the ground texture so it overlays the terrain and then match the two up in Bryce? If one was to create a texture map that came out 1 to 1 ratio as to the ground terrain, wonder if that would work?? I know that large of a texture map might be an issue, but I have wondered for some time if something like this would work… Maybe a project for me to try later today?

Bruce

Have a great weekend folks!

EDITED:  Now if people are already using this technique, my apologies for stating the obvious. Some of our experts out there may have been using this trick for years, but it just popped into my head and I had never heard of this before. But I could not wait to give this thought on image layering to match terrain with material texture. So I just slapped out a quick and dirty version just to see if it would work. Here are the results (Can’t wait to play with this trick some more and develop the idea much further with more realism.. etc)

Just to clarify, using PSP, I made a 500x500 image of the terrain model with the black and gray - Then put another raster layer on top and selected the color areas on the first layer and then transposed the selected areas onto the new layer and put in whatever colors and textures I wanted for a material / texture.This selecting and transposing is done twice so your black area is selected and then filled in green and the gray is selected and filled in with a gray texture.(The bumpy look is just from a texture I put on the gray on layer 2 just to make it more like a rough back road)

Then instead of merging the layers into one image, I copied and pasted each layer as an individual image. The first layer went into the (Mountain) terrain editor in picture mode and then applied that layer image to the terrain. Then I loaded the material layer into the material / texture lab and laid it over the terrain at a one to one ratio. Only thing I then had to address was lowering the Y coordinates so my road/path did not stick way up into the air. (Just for your info, the entire process took only about 5 minutes - I could see this trick being used to lay out yards and streets in a city scene render, etc. )

Like I stated, this maybe old news to some Bryce / 3D users, but might be helpful to some new to Bryce.

 

Hi Bruce,
  Thanks for the info on the roads as they are an important feature I will need in my 3D scenes. I will probably have a good excuse to connect a 2nd monitor to my pc now so I can read/watch tutorials on on monitor, while working with the other one. smile I am very interested in this subject.
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
Horo - 15 February 2014 08:13 AM

This idea of Bruce is great, of course. Two things to keep in mind:

(1) the image doesn’t need to be in square aspect ratio. That’s just the way the TE displays it. If you have a 2:1 aspect ratio, it looks strange in the TE but if you scale X:Z also 2:1, everything is fine.

(2) The TE works in 16-bit greyscale. If you design terrains in a graphics application, make sure you do so in 16 or 48-bit, otherwise you get stairs. If you work with 48-bit, export it as 16-bit TIFF. Photoshop can do it.

[I wrote a small tool that converts 96-bit (HDR and TIFF) and 48-bit (TIFF) into TE compatible 16-bit TIFF. It is included in one of our products (Stylised Rendering) but it is a freebie bonus. I just haven’t had the time to publish it on my website.]

Hi Horo,
  How do I know if my graphics are in 16 or 48 bit? I have a bunch of graphics programs but no PS. Is there a way to test the TIFF after I create it or will it just be a major FAIL and be obvious if I try to use it?
Thanks,
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
goshtac - 15 February 2014 10:12 AM

Hi Horo:

Thanks for the encouragement and the information. Since my earlier post, I did a little more real world test and it didn’t come out too bad as it just took 15 mins from conception to final render. The only part I was not happy with is I tried to put sidewalks in and was too close to the sloping I had put into the gray scale terrain. But I see this as a fairly easy fix (Should have been sloped grass where the gray is)

I did this with city streets in mind that are surrounded by slightly raised grassy yards. Again, this was a bit quick and dirty of a rush job, so it has real need for improvement, but I have been pleased where the project / experiment is going..


Bruce

Looking good Bruce. If you can do all that I surely should be able to make a logging road. smile
Thanks,
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3827
Joined  2004-10-01

@theschemer - you should get the options in your graphics application when you Save As or Export. Bryce doesn’t load 48-bit TIFF (16-bit RGB) into the TE, however 24-bit (8-bit RGB) it does, as it accepts 24-bit BMP. If you create a ramp in you graphics program from black to white and bring it into Bryce as a terrain, render that ramp terrain. If it is a smooth ramp, it is 16-bit greyscale, if you can walk up the steps, it’s 24. Though there are moments when you want just that. This is also the reason why there is a Posterize control in the TE.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
Horo - 15 February 2014 10:59 AM

@theschemer - you should get the options in your graphics application when you Save As or Export. Bryce doesn’t load 48-bit TIFF (16-bit RGB) into the TE, however 24-bit (8-bit RGB) it does, as it accepts 24-bit BMP. If you create a ramp in you graphics program from black to white and bring it into Bryce as a terrain, render that ramp terrain. If it is a smooth ramp, it is 16-bit greyscale, if you can walk up the steps, it’s 24. Though there are moments when you want just that. This is also the reason why there is a Posterize control in the TE.

I just made a few test .tifs and looked at the properties and they are 24 bit. I guess I will have to experiment so I can ask questions with a better idea of what I am talking about. But I think I understand the steps and smooth ramp you are talking about….Is it best for me to have the capability to export to 16 or 48 bit or will everything work with 24 bit? I guess I am a little confused yet as you say Bryce won’t load 48 bit tiffs into the TE, so why would I need an image editor that can export to that resolution?
Thanks,
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  126
Joined  2005-08-28

Hi again guys;

I redid the last streets test and fixed the sidewalks perse. I see what you mean Horo on the stepping factor, so this is an issue I will have to play with. This last render I lowered the Y coordinates and expanded the x & z settings so I tried to make the slopes a little more gradual. But I will play with your thoughts on the step issue which does seem obvious in this latest render.

PS:  When laying the material / texture down, make sure you set it as Parametric - Any other selection in the Texture mapping mode will give you some odd ball results (But in the right circumstances, it might be worth while to play with the other settings and see what you can come up with.

Bruce

Image Attachments
Street_Tests.jpg
 Signature 

Fan-atic over Bryce, DAZ Studio, Paint Shop Pro and my Photography
My Bryce Freebies http://www.sharecg.com/goshtac
My Art & Photography Web Site:    http://www.goshtac.com/
My Renderosity Hangout: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?userid=381287

cool smile   Bruce Davey /  aka GOSHTAC

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3827
Joined  2004-10-01

@theschemer - ok, you can get that little tool that converts 96 and 48 to 16-bit greyscale. I’ve yet to write up a doc but the rudimentary help should get you started. Link is www.horo.ch/xchg/TIFF4816.zip [DELETED, see below]. The zip is less than 70 kB. Just unpack it wherever you want and run. It doesn’t mess up the registry or whatever.

@Bruce - your street came out really fine. Here, steps don’t offend, they are needed.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 February 2014 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
Horo - 15 February 2014 11:58 AM

@theschemer - ok, you can get that little tool that converts 96 and 48 to 16-bit greyscale. I’ve yet to write up a doc but the rudimentary help should get you started. Link is www.horo.ch/xchg/TIFF4816.zip. The zip is less than 70 kB. Just unpack it wherever you want and run. It doesn’t mess up the registry or whatever.

@Bruce - your street came out really fine. Here, steps don’t offend, they are needed.

Thanks Horo,
  I will be looking forward to the docs. smile
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 February 2014 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3827
Joined  2004-10-01

The program with documentation is now available on my website (see sig). Go to Bryce Documents > Programs > Terrain > TIFF4816. I deleted the link above.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 February 2014 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
Horo - 16 February 2014 01:11 PM

The program with documentation is now available on my website (see sig). Go to Bryce Documents > Programs > Terrain > TIFF4816. I deleted the link above.

Thanks Horo. I appreciate that. I will look at it tomorrow as I will have more time then.
theschemer

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 February 2014 11:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  126
Joined  2005-08-28
theschemer - 15 February 2014 10:53 AM
goshtac - 15 February 2014 10:12 AM

Hi Horo:

Thanks for the encouragement and the information. Since my earlier post, I did a little more real world test and it didn’t come out too bad as it just took 15 mins from conception to final render. The only part I was not happy with is I tried to put sidewalks in and was too close to the sloping I had put into the gray scale terrain. But I see this as a fairly easy fix (Should have been sloped grass where the gray is)

I did this with city streets in mind that are surrounded by slightly raised grassy yards. Again, this was a bit quick and dirty of a rush job, so it has real need for improvement, but I have been pleased where the project / experiment is going..


Bruce

Looking good Bruce. If you can do all that I surely should be able to make a logging road. smile
Thanks,
theschemer

@theschemer:  I did up a more detailed image called Roads To Nowhere using this technique and you can see further example at the page of Show Us Your Renders   http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/32589/P1215  to see how it came out after some changes and using Horo’s advice in getting rid of the steps effect. Still has work that needs done, but I am happy the way it is coming out so far.

Bruce

 Signature 

Fan-atic over Bryce, DAZ Studio, Paint Shop Pro and my Photography
My Bryce Freebies http://www.sharecg.com/goshtac
My Art & Photography Web Site:    http://www.goshtac.com/
My Renderosity Hangout: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?userid=381287

cool smile   Bruce Davey /  aka GOSHTAC

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 February 2014 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  65
Joined  2014-01-08
goshtac - 16 February 2014 11:42 PM

@theschemer:  I did up a more detailed image called Roads To Nowhere using this technique and you can see further example at the page of Show Us Your Renders   http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/32589/P1215  to see how it came out after some changes and using Horo’s advice in getting rid of the steps effect. Still has work that needs done, but I am happy the way it is coming out so far.

Bruce

@Bruce: Great job. Like Horo says it could easily be made into a runway. The roads I am planning to make are going to be dirt roads like in a forest more like fire roads. But I am sure your technique will be a great start to get me closer to that goal. Currently I am burning the candle at both ends in my learning a few different apps at the same time so I will be a bit slow. I checked out your website and see you are close to where I am from originally (Wisconsin). I also have some property in Minnesota. Too bad I am stuck in Florida. smile

@Horo: Great job on the Docs for the TIFF4816. Interesting you wrote that with PowerBASIC. Too bad for Bob Zale that he passed away a few years ago. I have PB but never really had a chance to learn it as it didn’t click. I have done some programming in VB6 which I wish they would have kept upgrading instead of the .NET stuff which I have but never pursued. I really need to decide again what to use to keep my software alive into the future because one day support will probably go away in Windows. :(  Us guys that try to do it all sometimes should focus on one thing but that never seems to work…

Thanks,
theschemer

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 3
2