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Compatibility Matrix
Posted: 09 January 2014 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I see that they have added a Compatibility Matrix to the website.  Rather than a character Compatibility Matrix, what many of us want is CHARACTER COMPATIBILITY.  From day one.  No extra cost for 10s of addons to create compatibility.  DAZ isn’t likely to understand this or make it happen unless the user community makes it clear that the costs currently imposed by these new characters is outrageous and unacceptable.

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Posted: 09 January 2014 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Considering you didn’t have any compatibility prior to Genesis and you had to buy or remake many of your items from scratch, it’s good that can reuse a lot of your textures and clothing with Genesis. If you want the new tech, yeah you have to upgrade, but nothing is making you do that.. you can keep using what you have.

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Posted: 09 January 2014 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The nirvana of being able to buy a dress for Victoria 6 and being able to use it on Victoria 16 with zero effort isn’t very likely. Even less so with a character morph / skin like Olympia. When one understands how technologies change (rigging, weight mapping, UV mapping, etc.) over time this simply isn’t feasible. The reason that Genesis created such a buzz in the 3D world even beyond the Poser / DAZ Studio community is because it was a step in that direction.

Besides, a 3D artist CAN use clothing designed for one character on another. If you’re willing to put in the effort. Especially for static images, scaling, translating, manual posing, helper morphs, deformers, etc. can be used to fix any fitting issues, they just take time.

Not saying this is the case for you, artistb3, but most often when someone complains that things aren’t compatible, what they really mean is that they want things to work easily.

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Posted: 09 January 2014 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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I don’t buy the infeasibility argument.  I see new products sold in the store most every week that offer a way to pay for additional compatibility (see http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit).  Others are spending a good deal of time finding free workarounds for incompatibilities that could be eliminated in the original development (e.g. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/24093/).

We all want new technology.  And most of us are willing to invest in it when the benefit outweighs the cost.  But what we are being offered here is new-technology+a-lot-of-additional-cost+a-lot-of-additional-work+incompatibilities-with-existing-content vs. older-technologies.

For it to make sense investment-wise (time and money) for a lot of us, the choice we must make is older technology. 

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Posted: 09 January 2014 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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artistb3 - 09 January 2014 12:47 PM

I don’t buy the infeasibility argument.  I see new products sold in the store most every week that offer a way to pay for additional compatibility (see http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit).  Others are spending a good deal of time finding free workarounds for incompatibilities that could be eliminated in the original development (e.g. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/24093/).

We all want new technology.  And most of us are willing to invest in it when the benefit outweighs the cost.  But what we are being offered here is new-technology+a-lot-of-additional-cost+a-lot-of-additional-work+incompatibilities-with-existing-content vs. older-technologies.

For it to make sense investment-wise (time and money) for a lot of us, the choice we must make is older technology. 

I think you’ve said what Johnny just mentioned in his post.

The first item is content developer script to make it easier for the male and female content because it copies the shape and rigging to the item. This couldn’t be solved in the original development as you said, since the sexes were separated so the can use specific rigging and weightmapping rather than using one and the developer having to create lots of corrective to get it to work like a particular sex.

The second method allows you to copy morphs from one figure to another, but you still have to fix rigging and make correctives to behave correctly in the new .. or older figure. And there are pitfalls that people have experienced.. such as a particular figure becoming the default genesis shape rather that one that it’s supposed to be. The items for sale do this for you, so it’s easier for the end user to use.

But this is the cost of compatibility, companies don’t make money from you reusing items so not much focus is there.. .thus you see 3rd parties doing it and leaving the company free to do R&D on new stuff or develop their current products.

 

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Posted: 09 January 2014 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Greetings,
Backwards compatibility is a millstone, in every field.  You just can’t build something significantly new starting with, ‘it has to work perfectly with the previous version’.

Yes, people will figure out ways to hammer that square block into the round hole of the new thing, but that should never be more than a stop-gap measure.

If you’re smart (‘you’ being the person creating the new thing) you’ll let the market create the method to hammer that square block into the round hole, because an unofficial solution can be buggy due to irreconcilable differences, but an official solution can significantly hurt your brand if it’s not perfectly backwards compatible.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 03:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Do I see correctly?

V5/Genesis1 can use V4 morphs, but V6/Genesis 2 cannot????????

WTF, DAZ, REALLY???????????

And the new legacy packs for V6/M6 do not include clone figures????? Is this gonna change or do we have to buy those separatly?  REALLY????

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Posted: 10 January 2014 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

Everything that is more is something you will have to pay for ... simply because it costs time and money to create it.
(Would I like it for free? Sure. But Daz3d is a store and a company and they do have to make money to survive)

And believe me: I remember the time when you had to pay for the base figure without any morphs ...

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Posted: 10 January 2014 03:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I consider G1 and G2 as one figure. The time between them is so short. Instead of bug fixing genesis they gave it a new name.

So I still think:

fxbar - 10 January 2014 03:35 AM

Do I see correctly?

V5/Genesis1 can use V4 morphs, but V6/Genesis 2 cannot????????

WTF, DAZ, REALLY???????????

And the new legacy packs for V6/M6 do not include clone figures????? Is this gonna change or do we have to buy those separatly?  REALLY????

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Posted: 10 January 2014 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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V5/Genesis 1 can only use V4 morphs because of GenX. If GenX didn’t exist, V4’s morphs wouldn’t have been compatible with Genesis 1. Dimension3D is still working on the update for the new figures.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 06:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Kerya - 10 January 2014 03:37 AM

Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

I don’t think M4 was provided a way to wear M3’s clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Male-M3dia - 10 January 2014 06:01 AM
Kerya - 10 January 2014 03:37 AM

Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

I don’t think M4 was provided a way to wear M3’s clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.

Unfortunately the men are always left behind - and even farther down the line are kids ...

 

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Posted: 10 January 2014 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis?  If so, I offer this:  near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products.  If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?

What I hear from DAZ is: “If you wish to go with us, prepare to re-invest in characters, morphs, textures, poses, and character-specific content every two years.  Also, there may be significant disruption to workflows.  Sorry, limited backward compatibility and only offered with full re-investment.”.  Those who claim there is existing out-of-the-box compatibility perhaps have not attempted to re-use morphs, poses, textures (or even shoes of many types), etc.  Also, if the compatibility is built-in, why are there so many products offered to address compatibility issues?  I have my doubts that Genesis would have survived at all if Dimension3D had not come along with Gen X.

Further examples:  For Genesis, we invested in “Gen 4 Iconic Shapes for Genesis”.  Now we are being asked again to invest in “legacy” shapes, this time for G2.  However, now there are two products: one for G2 male, and one for G2 female.  On top of that, add “legacy” shapes for Genesis.  Perhaps down the line, there will “legacy” shapes for Gen 3?  In ten years, the number of these add-ons will have to multiply exponentially.  In my view, those who simply see this as economic opportunity, are just missing the point.

DAZ uses the term “legacy” conveniently in order to point out that if you are still using Gen 3-4 or Genesis, you are using outdated technology.  However, a quick look at the DAZ store shows that many products for “legacy” characters are still sold as new and on a regular basis.  There are other sources out there that provide little else except Gen 4 content. 

I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies.  We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years.  The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked.  The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.

I started out with Genesis plus Gen 4.  For those who settled on Gen 4, years ago, there are some significant advantages.  One, little disruption to workflow (therefore allowing one to focus on artwork instead of workarounds).  Two, complete re-use of existing Gen 4 content, morphs, poses, and textures.  Three, drop-in compatibility with new Gen 4 content.  Can one do superior artwork with a Gen 4 character and content?  Take a look at this if your not sure: http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/13344

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Posted: 10 January 2014 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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artistb3 - 10 January 2014 08:25 AM

Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis?  If so, I offer this:  near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products.  If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?

I don’t think G2 is considered an “upgrade.” It’s a brand new figure (two brand new figures, technically: G2F and G2M), and does not replace the Genesis figure. I still use the original Genesis more often than not.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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No one is forced to use the “new” figures and drop the “old” ones. If you are happy with V4 or Genesis or whatever, simply stay with it and ignore the others. There is enough content for the “old” figures and it is still selling, so it seems that many people are doing exactly the same.

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Posted: 10 January 2014 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Exactly the point.  It is a new product line with a few new features but significant new costs to the end user.

Want to keep up with the new technology?  Want compatibility with previous product lines?  Prepare to invest heavily (time and money).

The message I have been trying to convey here is that if we want new technology and compatibility, there is a way to help create a change in direction. But it is going to require that the user base weigh-in significantly with our voices and pocketbooks in order to make this happen.

Personally, I think DAZ is missing the economic boat by making the product decisions they have made.  It doesn’t take much imagination to see the possibilities that exist when product decisions don’t result in the alienation of a large portion of the existing customer base.

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