Compatibility Matrix

artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
edited December 1969 in DAZ Studio Discussion

I see that they have added a Compatibility Matrix to the website. Rather than a character Compatibility Matrix, what many of us want is CHARACTER COMPATIBILITY. From day one. No extra cost for 10s of addons to create compatibility. DAZ isn't likely to understand this or make it happen unless the user community makes it clear that the costs currently imposed by these new characters is outrageous and unacceptable.

Comments

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited December 1969

    Considering you didn't have any compatibility prior to Genesis and you had to buy or remake many of your items from scratch, it's good that can reuse a lot of your textures and clothing with Genesis. If you want the new tech, yeah you have to upgrade, but nothing is making you do that.. you can keep using what you have.

  • JonnyRayJonnyRay Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    The nirvana of being able to buy a dress for Victoria 6 and being able to use it on Victoria 16 with zero effort isn't very likely. Even less so with a character morph / skin like Olympia. When one understands how technologies change (rigging, weight mapping, UV mapping, etc.) over time this simply isn't feasible. The reason that Genesis created such a buzz in the 3D world even beyond the Poser / DAZ Studio community is because it was a step in that direction.

    Besides, a 3D artist CAN use clothing designed for one character on another. If you're willing to put in the effort. Especially for static images, scaling, translating, manual posing, helper morphs, deformers, etc. can be used to fix any fitting issues, they just take time.

    Not saying this is the case for you, artistb3, but most often when someone complains that things aren't compatible, what they really mean is that they want things to work easily.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    I don't buy the infeasibility argument. I see new products sold in the store most every week that offer a way to pay for additional compatibility (see http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit). Others are spending a good deal of time finding free workarounds for incompatibilities that could be eliminated in the original development (e.g. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24093/).

    We all want new technology. And most of us are willing to invest in it when the benefit outweighs the cost. But what we are being offered here is new-technology+a-lot-of-additional-cost+a-lot-of-additional-work+incompatibilities-with-existing-content vs. older-technologies.

    For it to make sense investment-wise (time and money) for a lot of us, the choice we must make is older technology.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:
    I don't buy the infeasibility argument. I see new products sold in the store most every week that offer a way to pay for additional compatibility (see http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit). Others are spending a good deal of time finding free workarounds for incompatibilities that could be eliminated in the original development (e.g. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24093/).

    We all want new technology. And most of us are willing to invest in it when the benefit outweighs the cost. But what we are being offered here is new-technology+a-lot-of-additional-cost+a-lot-of-additional-work+incompatibilities-with-existing-content vs. older-technologies.

    For it to make sense investment-wise (time and money) for a lot of us, the choice we must make is older technology.

    I think you've said what Johnny just mentioned in his post.

    The first item is content developer script to make it easier for the male and female content because it copies the shape and rigging to the item. This couldn't be solved in the original development as you said, since the sexes were separated so the can use specific rigging and weightmapping rather than using one and the developer having to create lots of corrective to get it to work like a particular sex.

    The second method allows you to copy morphs from one figure to another, but you still have to fix rigging and make correctives to behave correctly in the new .. or older figure. And there are pitfalls that people have experienced.. such as a particular figure becoming the default genesis shape rather that one that it's supposed to be. The items for sale do this for you, so it's easier for the end user to use.

    But this is the cost of compatibility, companies don't make money from you reusing items so not much focus is there.. .thus you see 3rd parties doing it and leaving the company free to do R&D on new stuff or develop their current products.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 2,233
    edited January 2014

    Greetings,
    Backwards compatibility is a millstone, in every field. You just can't build something significantly new starting with, 'it has to work perfectly with the previous version'.

    Yes, people will figure out ways to hammer that square block into the round hole of the new thing, but that should never be more than a stop-gap measure.

    If you're smart ('you' being the person creating the new thing) you'll let the market create the method to hammer that square block into the round hole, because an unofficial solution can be buggy due to irreconcilable differences, but an official solution can significantly hurt your brand if it's not perfectly backwards compatible.

    -- Morgan

    Post edited by CypherFOX on
  • edited December 1969

    Do I see correctly?

    V5/Genesis1 can use V4 morphs, but V6/Genesis 2 cannot????????

    WTF, DAZ, REALLY???????????

    And the new legacy packs for V6/M6 do not include clone figures????? Is this gonna change or do we have to buy those separatly? REALLY????

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 7,185
    edited December 1969

    Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
    V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
    Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
    Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

    Everything that is more is something you will have to pay for ... simply because it costs time and money to create it.
    (Would I like it for free? Sure. But Daz3d is a store and a company and they do have to make money to survive)

    And believe me: I remember the time when you had to pay for the base figure without any morphs ...

  • edited December 1969

    I consider G1 and G2 as one figure. The time between them is so short. Instead of bug fixing genesis they gave it a new name.

    So I still think:

    fxbar said:
    Do I see correctly?

    V5/Genesis1 can use V4 morphs, but V6/Genesis 2 cannot????????

    WTF, DAZ, REALLY???????????

    And the new legacy packs for V6/M6 do not include clone figures????? Is this gonna change or do we have to buy those separatly? REALLY????

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited January 2014

    V5/Genesis 1 can only use V4 morphs because of GenX. If GenX didn't exist, V4's morphs wouldn't have been compatible with Genesis 1. Dimension3D is still working on the update for the new figures.

    Post edited by Vaskania on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited December 1969

    Kerya said:
    Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
    V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
    Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
    Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

    I don't think M4 was provided a way to wear M3's clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 7,185
    edited December 1969

    Kerya said:
    Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
    V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
    Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
    Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes

    I don't think M4 was provided a way to wear M3's clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.

    Unfortunately the men are always left behind - and even farther down the line are kids ...

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis? If so, I offer this: near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products. If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?

    What I hear from DAZ is: "If you wish to go with us, prepare to re-invest in characters, morphs, textures, poses, and character-specific content every two years. Also, there may be significant disruption to workflows. Sorry, limited backward compatibility and only offered with full re-investment.". Those who claim there is existing out-of-the-box compatibility perhaps have not attempted to re-use morphs, poses, textures (or even shoes of many types), etc. Also, if the compatibility is built-in, why are there so many products offered to address compatibility issues? I have my doubts that Genesis would have survived at all if Dimension3D had not come along with Gen X.

    Further examples: For Genesis, we invested in "Gen 4 Iconic Shapes for Genesis". Now we are being asked again to invest in "legacy" shapes, this time for G2. However, now there are two products: one for G2 male, and one for G2 female. On top of that, add "legacy" shapes for Genesis. Perhaps down the line, there will "legacy" shapes for Gen 3? In ten years, the number of these add-ons will have to multiply exponentially. In my view, those who simply see this as economic opportunity, are just missing the point.

    DAZ uses the term "legacy" conveniently in order to point out that if you are still using Gen 3-4 or Genesis, you are using outdated technology. However, a quick look at the DAZ store shows that many products for "legacy" characters are still sold as new and on a regular basis. There are other sources out there that provide little else except Gen 4 content.

    I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies. We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years. The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked. The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.

    I started out with Genesis plus Gen 4. For those who settled on Gen 4, years ago, there are some significant advantages. One, little disruption to workflow (therefore allowing one to focus on artwork instead of workarounds). Two, complete re-use of existing Gen 4 content, morphs, poses, and textures. Three, drop-in compatibility with new Gen 4 content. Can one do superior artwork with a Gen 4 character and content? Take a look at this if your not sure: http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/13344

  • Scott LivingstonScott Livingston Posts: 4,100
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:
    Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis? If so, I offer this: near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products. If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?

    I don't think G2 is considered an "upgrade." It's a brand new figure (two brand new figures, technically: G2F and G2M), and does not replace the Genesis figure. I still use the original Genesis more often than not.

  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 792
    edited December 1969

    No one is forced to use the "new" figures and drop the "old" ones. If you are happy with V4 or Genesis or whatever, simply stay with it and ignore the others. There is enough content for the "old" figures and it is still selling, so it seems that many people are doing exactly the same.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    Exactly the point. It is a new product line with a few new features but significant new costs to the end user.

    Want to keep up with the new technology? Want compatibility with previous product lines? Prepare to invest heavily (time and money).

    The message I have been trying to convey here is that if we want new technology and compatibility, there is a way to help create a change in direction. But it is going to require that the user base weigh-in significantly with our voices and pocketbooks in order to make this happen.

    Personally, I think DAZ is missing the economic boat by making the product decisions they have made. It doesn't take much imagination to see the possibilities that exist when product decisions don't result in the alienation of a large portion of the existing customer base.

  • XoechZXoechZ Posts: 792
    edited December 1969

    Right, but there is another thing that comes to my mind. There are not only existing customers who have (and still use) tons of "old" content. There are also new customers. People who discover DAZ right now, who have never heared about V4 or M4. They download DAZ Studio right now for the first time, they get G2F and G2M for free! And maybe they like it for all the new features, for the details, the realism, HD addons subsurface and that stuff. They do not need compatibility. And those who do, well, they just have to invest a little to get the best of both worlds. I personally did it, because I like G2F but I do not want to buy tons of clothes again. So I bought this one: http://www.daz3d.com/morphs/victoria-4-for-genesis-2-female
    And now I can use all my "old" items with the new figure (or almost all of it). And thats much cheaper than buying a whole new wardrobe again.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    True, and when I saw G2 arrive, I initially presumed that this was a primary motivator for DAZ. Many of the old customers would be put off but compensation could be made with new customers. So, perhaps, this is the target market for G2? Since I started working with DAZ products in 2011, I have heard nor seen nary a peep out of DAZ top management on any subject.

    For those who are starting out and doing it with G2, you are in a similar position as those starting out with Gen 4 or Genesis. I would urge extreme caution because unless DAZ changes how it does things, you will find yourself in similar position (as the Gen 4/Genesis users) in a couple of years. You will have significant time and money invested in G2 and then find one day that DAZ has released a new G3 that promises technical superiority but little compatibility. You may decide to stick with G2 and then find that most of the new content is being developed for G3.

    I bought both Gen 4 and Genesis at the start. I went with Genesis and DS4 because I preferred the concept of a genderless character that could morph into most anything. I was astounded when I saw that DAZ had backpedaled to a M/F approach with G2. If I knew then what I know now, I would definitely have chosen Gen 4 over Genesis (as so many experienced users have done). The fact of the matter is that most of the content I use with Genesis was designed for Gen 4.

    So, I believe it is also in your best interest to consider right now joining those of us who refuse to buy into this strategy.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited January 2014

    artistb3 said:
    Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis? If so, I offer this: near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products. If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?


    If you want to compare software, try Adobe for example. How much is the cost to upgrade from CS6 to the latest version? Then compare how much to get the base Genesis 2 figures that was added free to your accounts. If you have plugins for CS6, you may need to upgrade those as well to work in the new version.

    Or let's try a media content provider, like the Xbox One or Playstation 4. You want the new features, how much is it going to cost to upgrade? The consoles themselves are loss leaders so that you buy new games, which the companies drive their revenue from by licensing. The base machines is still going to set you back at least $500. Sure you can use your older games from one generation back, but if no one buys the new content the whole platform is doomed. But if you don't want the new stuff, your older console hasn't stopped working; you can simply use that. Conversely I don't imagine the majority of people would go to new tech just so they can re-use all their old stuff. Those people are looking for something new, but not everyone wants that.

    So in reality, DAZ has really gave you a pretty decent upgrade path as you can fit clothes from one generation back at no charge, the base figure free, and any new content you do have to pay for, as with any other content provider. You can even bypass buying a clone for g2m by just autofitting m4/v4 clothing to Genesis, then passing that to G2.


    What I hear from DAZ is: "If you wish to go with us, prepare to re-invest in characters, morphs, textures, poses, and character-specific content every two years. Also, there may be significant disruption to workflows. Sorry, limited backward compatibility and only offered with full re-investment.". Those who claim there is existing out-of-the-box compatibility perhaps have not attempted to re-use morphs, poses, textures (or even shoes of many types), etc. Also, if the compatibility is built-in, why are there so many products offered to address compatibility issues? I have my doubts that Genesis would have survived at all if Dimension3D had not come along with Gen X.


    Considering that DAZ's bottom line depends on selling you new content, this is pretty reasonable. I don't see how they could stay in business if they just dropped a figure out with 100% compatibitly and you just loaded all your old stuff in.. I think it would just be the same thing with no improvements; I don't think there would be a point to it as nothing new could be added to it. It may make you happy but then pretty soon they'd go out of business and you would soon have a figure and software that isn't supported and you'll to look for an alternative that is.

    Further examples: For Genesis, we invested in "Gen 4 Iconic Shapes for Genesis". Now we are being asked again to invest in "legacy" shapes, this time for G2. However, now there are two products: one for G2 male, and one for G2 female. On top of that, add "legacy" shapes for Genesis. Perhaps down the line, there will "legacy" shapes for Gen 3? In ten years, the number of these add-ons will have to multiply exponentially. In my view, those who simply see this as economic opportunity, are just missing the point.

    DAZ uses the term "legacy" conveniently in order to point out that if you are still using Gen 3-4 or Genesis, you are using outdated technology. However, a quick look at the DAZ store shows that many products for "legacy" characters are still sold as new and on a regular basis. There are other sources out there that provide little else except Gen 4 content.

    My iphone 3 was only 3 or 4 years old and that was legacy. Apple stopped sending updates to it to update software after the intro of IOS7. Finally I had to buy a new phone after holding off so long. By the time I bought my Sega Dreamcast with all the controllers, games, and adapters in 2000, it was legacy and discontinued after 3 years after its introduction. 3dFX voodoo card didn't fare much better when they were bought out by Nvidia and they didn't make drivers for it to work with the new version of windows.. when I bought the video card new 3 months prior. When you look at all the electronic items and software, you'll probably see that everything lasts between 2-3 years before it's considered legacy or discontinued. DAZ shouldn't be any different, as Gen4 is way over that mark because of things that been discussed many times before in the forums.

    I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies. We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years. The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked. The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.

    I work for a software company providing digital content, While customers have their individual needs for our solutions and when to apply updates, our development life cycle goes at 18 months (which is standard in the software industry) with point upgrades. Because of the tighter life cycle, we could bring solutions and new tech to market faster such as streaming video to mobile devices within the customer's property... and were the first to do so in our industry two years ago, blindsiding our competition. Some of our competition and even customers tried to do the same thing.. and failed.. and we just took over a project from a client where they had a competitor try and fail with the same product. We just hired a bunch of iOS developers and QA to keep up with the demand in installs we have for this coming year and next. And my job position expanded where now I'm doing 25% travel domestic and internationally most likely 30%... and I have to go through security with a bunch of work, passport and government IDs. And that's what staying ahead does.

    So I understand the advantage of making sure your company stays on top of tech advances, because that's how a company leads, grows and stays ahead of the competition... and drives new customers to you.


    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,991
    edited January 2014

    artistb3 said:
    Exactly the point. It is a new product line with a few new features but significant new costs to the end user.

    Want to keep up with the new technology? Want compatibility with previous product lines? Prepare to invest heavily (time and money).

    The message I have been trying to convey here is that if we want new technology and compatibility, there is a way to help create a change in direction. But it is going to require that the user base weigh-in significantly with our voices and pocketbooks in order to make this happen.

    Personally, I think DAZ is missing the economic boat by making the product decisions they have made. It doesn't take much imagination to see the possibilities that exist when product decisions don't result in the alienation of a large portion of the existing customer base.

    I have to just laugh when I hear things like this. In order to accurately say DAZ has made an economic mistake, you have to first be able to accurately say that they have lost sales from these decisions instead of massively gained them. Speaking as a DAZ vendor who started here with Genesis and now makes content for G2, whatever they're doing, it's extremely successful.

    Backward compatibility is promised to no one in any product line. The fact that DAZ even lets us third parties make intercompatibility facilitators is generous (speaking as the maker of those facilitators), because it allows people to not upgrade to the newest figures when DAZ has the most investment in that tech. (I'm guessing they do it because of the Gen 3 and 4 Plat Club sales.) Remember that the most powerful interconverter is AutoFit, and AutoFit is made by DAZ, not by third parties.

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    If it is indeed doing well then I'm sure the venders who are filling the compatibility gaps are laughing all the way to the bank. Let me tell you it is not funny to those of us who are faced with the cost of "upgrading" from one product line to the next. I don't know how successful DAZ has been with G2. In particular, when it comes selling to Gen 4/Genesis users. The evidence I see indicates to me that DAZ has alienated a significant group of users. Remember, Genesis could be used only in DS until the DSON thing came along. I do believe that DAZ can gain significantly by making decisions that avoid alienating existing users.

    Everyone seems to focus on clothing and how easy it might be to re-use Genesis clothes on G2. I know there are issues here, but there are other factors to consider, as well. There are lots of existing morphs purchased for prior generations. GenX will not work with G2 and when it is re-released, additional cost will be imposed. Poses from V4 do not work well on Genesis and Genesis poses do not work well on G2. Our collection of character textures require workarounds in order to be used with G2. Try using your investment in M4 genital textures with Genesis or G2. And one thing that irks many of us the most that there is a significant disruption in workflows when attempting to integrate a new product line that ignores backward compatibility. Want to recreate/modify in G2 a favorite character that you made using Genesis morph packages? Buy the new GenX (when available), buy the new morph packages for G2, and then start over.

    I have to cry when I hear things like this regarding AutoFit. It gave me fits over the past two+ years. It worked marginally well as long as one is not fitting long skirts or shoes of many types. But It really wasn't until your product came along that we had a decent addon to autofit. Can you honestly tell me that this sort of capability could not have been designed into the original product? Did DAZ even try to address an issue that was clearly an ongoing concern to a lot of end users?

    In my view, it was the vendors who filled the gaps and, hence, saved the day for Genesis. Not DAZ.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:
    Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis? If so, I offer this: near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products. If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?


    If you want to compare software, try Adobe for example. How much is the cost to upgrade from CS6 to the latest version? Then compare how much to get the base Genesis 2 figures that was added free to your accounts. If you have plugins for CS6, you may need to upgrade those as well to work in the new version.

    Or let's try a media content provider, like the Xbox One or Playstation 4. You want the new features, how much is it going to cost to upgrade? The consoles themselves are loss leaders so that you buy new games, which the companies drive their revenue from by licensing. The base machines is still going to set you back at least $500. Sure you can use your older games from one generation back, but if no one buys the new content the whole platform is doomed. But if you don't want the new stuff, your older console hasn't stopped working; you can simply use that. Conversely I don't imagine the majority of people would go to new tech just so they can re-use all their old stuff. Those people are looking for something new, but not everyone wants that.

    So in reality, DAZ has really gave you a pretty decent upgrade path as you can fit clothes from one generation back at no charge, the base figure free, and any new content you do have to pay for, as with any other content provider. You can even bypass buying a clone for g2m by just autofitting m4/v4 clothing to Genesis, then passing that to G2.

    The CS upgrade costs are outliers in the SW industry and it caused a lot of people to hold off on upgrading to the latest version(s). Myself included. As an alternative example, I offer you Microsoft and Windows 8. This was an actual upgrade with upgrade pricing. Although there are clear technical advancements in the O/S between versions 7 and 8, how many IT departments (or individuals running desktops/laptops without touch screens) would consider upgrading from 7 to 8? Here is case where benefit vs. cost is not measured in features provided. Rather, it is about usability and relative disruption to workflows. Even Microsoft understood and acknowledged the enormity of the problem. Hence, Windows 8.1 within a year. Many think that Microsoft did not go far enough in addressing customer concerns.


    What I hear from DAZ is: "If you wish to go with us, prepare to re-invest in characters, morphs, textures, poses, and character-specific content every two years. Also, there may be significant disruption to workflows. Sorry, limited backward compatibility and only offered with full re-investment.". Those who claim there is existing out-of-the-box compatibility perhaps have not attempted to re-use morphs, poses, textures (or even shoes of many types), etc. Also, if the compatibility is built-in, why are there so many products offered to address compatibility issues? I have my doubts that Genesis would have survived at all if Dimension3D had not come along with Gen X.


    Considering that DAZ's bottom line depends on selling you new content, this is pretty reasonable. I don't see how they could stay in business if they just dropped a figure out with 100% compatibitly and you just loaded all your old stuff in.. I think it would just be the same thing with no improvements; I don't think there would be a point to it as nothing new could be added to it. It may make you happy but then pretty soon they'd go out of business and you would soon have a figure and software that isn't supported and you'll to look for an alternative that is.

    I refuse to believe that compatibility between characters would hurt the bottom line at DAZ. On the contrary, I believe it would improve the bottom line by including customers (like me) who have decided not to re-invest. Take a look! When DAZ adds new G2 content, is it just a re-hash of older-generation content? No! They are offering content with new features, new looks, etc.. Think about it. With the existing arrangement, if the piece is only compatible with say G2, and there are 100 G2 users, 100 Genesis users, and 100 Gen 4 users who like it, DAZ is still only going to sell 100. However, if there were designed-in compatibilities between generations of characters and users could upgrade without a severe cost/time penalty then DAZ could sell 300. Just look at all the time and energy that goes into finding workarounds for incompatibilities. Especially among the vendors that sell those workarounds. This is time and energy that could be applied to creating content and tools that could reach a larger market, result in happier end users, and provide new potential for profits.

    Further examples: For Genesis, we invested in "Gen 4 Iconic Shapes for Genesis". Now we are being asked again to invest in "legacy" shapes, this time for G2. However, now there are two products: one for G2 male, and one for G2 female. On top of that, add "legacy" shapes for Genesis. Perhaps down the line, there will "legacy" shapes for Gen 3? In ten years, the number of these add-ons will have to multiply exponentially. In my view, those who simply see this as economic opportunity, are just missing the point.

    DAZ uses the term "legacy" conveniently in order to point out that if you are still using Gen 3-4 or Genesis, you are using outdated technology. However, a quick look at the DAZ store shows that many products for "legacy" characters are still sold as new and on a regular basis. There are other sources out there that provide little else except Gen 4 content.

    My iphone 3 was only 3 or 4 years old and that was legacy. Apple stopped sending updates to it to update software after the intro of IOS7. Finally I had to buy a new phone after holding off so long. By the time I bought my Sega Dreamcast with all the controllers, games, and adapters in 2000, it was legacy and discontinued after 3 years after its introduction. 3dFX voodoo card didn't fare much better when they were bought out by Nvidia and they didn't make drivers for it to work with the new version of windows.. when I bought the video card new 3 months prior. When you look at all the electronic items and software, you'll probably see that everything lasts between 2-3 years before it's considered legacy or discontinued. DAZ shouldn't be any different, as Gen4 is way over that mark because of things that been discussed many times before in the forums.

    Sounds like you are not too happy with the way it's worked for you with your mobiles. A lot of us are. And guess what, the mobile companies are starting to get the message. All the majors now have early upgrade plans. However, regardless of how badly the mobile companies have acted, how does this make it right for DAZ to do the same?

    You visit the RDNA forum, so you know that V4 is clearly alive and well on another software platform which hosts it natively. Vendors have supplied enhancements and there is still lots of new and interesting content showing up everyday on various sites.

    I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies. We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years. The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked. The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.

    I work for a software company providing digital content, While customers have their individual needs for our solutions and when to apply updates, our development life cycle goes at 18 months (which is standard in the software industry) with point upgrades. Because of the tighter life cycle, we could bring solutions and new tech to market faster such as streaming video to mobile devices within the customer's property... and were the first to do so in our industry two years ago, blindsiding our competition. Some of our competition and even customers tried to do the same thing.. and failed.. and we just took over a project from a client where they had a competitor try and fail with the same product. We just hired a bunch of iOS developers and QA to keep up with the demand in installs we have for this coming year and next. And my job position expanded where now I'm doing 25% travel domestic and internationally most likely 30%... and I have to go through security with a bunch of work, passport and government IDs. And that's what staying ahead does.

    So I understand the advantage of making sure your company stays on top of tech advances, because that's how a company leads, grows and stays ahead of the competition... and drives new customers to you.

    Sorry, but I honestly don't see the relevance in the above. Was DAZ staying on top of tech advances when it first launched its new website? For the sake of staying on top, was it more important to launch a dysfunctional website than it was to meet the customer need for a stable site? If so, someone please show me how we customers (or DAZ for that matter) derived a benefit that outweighed the inconvenience (cost) of launching a site before it was even close to being ready. How many customers did that drive to DAZ?

    Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).


  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:
    If it is indeed doing well then I'm sure the venders who are filling the compatibility gaps are laughing all the way to the bank. Let me tell you it is not funny to those of us who are faced with the cost of "upgrading" from one product line to the next. I don't know how successful DAZ has been with G2. In particular, when it comes selling to Gen 4/Genesis users. The evidence I see indicates to me that DAZ has alienated a significant group of users. Remember, Genesis could be used only in DS until the DSON thing came along. I do believe that DAZ can gain significantly by making decisions that avoid alienating existing users.


    People in the forums make up only a small percent of the buying population, and generally more people post issues or complaints than people that are happy. Like sickleyield said you would have actually know DAZ is suffering from its decision to say the above. And that hasn't happened. Whatever DAZ is doing, what I bring in now is much much much more than what I did with Gen4. And both my G2 products outsold almost all my G1 items in their intro period. Many other PAs say the same thing. So whatever they're doing, they're doing it right.

    Everyone seems to focus on clothing and how easy it might be to re-use Genesis clothes on G2. I know there are issues here, but there are other factors to consider, as well. There are lots of existing morphs purchased for prior generations. GenX will not work with G2 and when it is re-released, additional cost will be imposed. Poses from V4 do not work well on Genesis and Genesis poses do not work well on G2. Our collection of character textures require workarounds in order to be used with G2. Try using your investment in M4 genital textures with Genesis or G2. And one thing that irks many of us the most that there is a significant disruption in workflows when attempting to integrate a new product line that ignores backward compatibility. Want to recreate/modify in G2 a favorite character that you made using Genesis morph packages? Buy the new GenX (when available), buy the new morph packages for G2, and then start over.


    You aren't guaranteed compatibility between generations. No Gen3 morphs could be used on Gen4 (unless you had V4 and the V4V3Cr2 but you couldn't do too much with it)

    The texture transformer offed by 3D universe converted the textures between Gen3 and Gen4, but no male genital textures could not be used, so it's the same situation. However CauriB made a version M4 gens UV to work on the M5 gens, so for the first time you would use a previous generations (as well as M3's) genital textures with a little post work. Doing some extra work, you can export those textures out to work on M6.... I've been able to move several characters textures and morphs over to M6 including M4 gens textures using the tools in DS4. So vendors can fill in the gaps in more ways due to the technology advances with genesis.

    I have to cry when I hear things like this regarding AutoFit. It gave me fits over the past two+ years. It worked marginally well as long as one is not fitting long skirts or shoes of many types. But It really wasn't until your product came along that we had a decent addon to autofit. Can you honestly tell me that this sort of capability could not have been designed into the original product? Did DAZ even try to address an issue that was clearly an ongoing concern to a lot of end users?

    Autofit is not perfect. The Transfer Tool works slightly better and using Sickleyield's tools allow more items to be used including dresses. I found for shoes that if i posed a Gen4 character in Gen1's default pose and export the shoes as a obj, and shape it in an external modeler and use the transfer tool on that, I get very good results on that. So I have been able to reuse a lot of my Gen4 clothing and shoes because DS has made rigging clothing much easier.


    In my view, it was the vendors who filled the gaps and, hence, saved the day for Genesis. Not DAZ.

    That's what we're supposed to do for each generation. DAZ has always provided the base for us to work with. Genesis and Genesis 2 has allowed us to create better products rather than just clothes or custom heads with default body morphs as so they work with clothing. From RawArts characters to Smay's Mr Hyde as well as other products, PAs have been able to provide more diverse products than what you've seen in Gen4.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited January 2014

    artistb3 said:


    The CS upgrade costs are outliers in the SW industry and it caused a lot of people to hold off on upgrading to the latest version(s). Myself included. As an alternative example, I offer you Microsoft and Windows 8. This was an actual upgrade with upgrade pricing. Although there are clear technical advancements in the O/S between versions 7 and 8, how many IT departments (or individuals running desktops/laptops without touch screens) would consider upgrading from 7 to 8? Here is case where benefit vs. cost is not measured in features provided. Rather, it is about usability and relative disruption to workflows. Even Microsoft understood and acknowledged the enormity of the problem. Hence, Windows 8.1 within a year. Many think that Microsoft did not go far enough in addressing customer concerns.


    But you missed the point about my upgrade comment. Depending on what you upgrade, whether it's Adobe, Modo, Windows, Xbox, etc, there is a cost to upgrading. This is no different for DAZ because they are a software company as well and have to innovate and incorporate advances in technology in their software in their figures. DAZ does have a lower cost as they give you the software free and the base figures free. If you don't want to use the figures, you don't have to install them as you previous generation content did not automatically stop working. Even then with a little manual work, you CAN move your new items over to G2 if you learn how to use the content developer tools. Things like the autofit clones and GenX 2 just make it easier for the end user to do, and as such you have to pay for that service.

    I refuse to believe that compatibility between characters would hurt the bottom line at DAZ. On the contrary, I believe it would improve the bottom line by including customers (like me) who have decided not to re-invest. Take a look! When DAZ adds new G2 content, is it just a re-hash of older-generation content? No! They are offering content with new features, new looks, etc.. Think about it. With the existing arrangement, if the piece is only compatible with say G2, and there are 100 G2 users, 100 Genesis users, and 100 Gen 4 users who like it, DAZ is still only going to sell 100. However, if there were designed-in compatibilities between generations of characters and users could upgrade without a severe cost/time penalty then DAZ could sell 300. Just look at all the time and energy that goes into finding workarounds for incompatibilities. Especially among the vendors that sell those workarounds. This is time and energy that could be applied to creating content and tools that could reach a larger market, result in happier end users, and provide new potential for profits.


    DAZ provides the bases for vendors to work on. It's always been like that. But the cool thing about G2 is that you CAN get the compatibility, but you have to do the work yourself. If you wish it to be automatically done, you will have to pay for that service as it takes away from DAZ development of new tech.

    DAZ's focus is on selling their new tech and the way it's been now, if a G2 piece comes out and it's good enough. You may have users from the G1 buying the outfit and using Sickle's clone to autofit it back to G1... or people from the G1 and Gen 4 group moving to G2 (which has been mostly case.. if you're looking at the increase of G2 items on other sites such as Rendo)


    Sounds like you are not too happy with the way it's worked for you with your mobiles. A lot of us are. And guess what, the mobile companies are starting to get the message. All the majors now have early upgrade plans. However, regardless of how badly the mobile companies have acted, how does this make it right for DAZ to do the same?


    No I'm just putting upgrade and technology in perspective. Happens all the time in regular intervals. However even when DAZ does upgrade it's tech, it's much more compatible than the other companies at a smaller cost. The tools in the DS has made it easy for me to rig refitted items to G1 and G2 from previous generations. Perhaps if DAZ made any mistake, it was probably offering autofit in the first place, as it's made people feel they're entitled to compatibility when they had absolutely none of it in previous generations.

    And mobiles are offering upgrade plans because laws have made it easier for people to take their phones with them when they go to other companies and break their contracts... thus the phone companies have to find ways to keep people with their company, Previously if you wanted to go to another company, you have to buy another phone and ditch your old one... no compatibility... now when your contract is up, you can unlock the phone and take it elsewhere.

    You visit the RDNA forum, so you know that V4 is clearly alive and well on another software platform which hosts it natively. Vendors have supplied enhancements and there is still lots of new and interesting content showing up everyday on various sites.

    Yes and no. If you were to speak to those vendors, they aren't making as much money as more people are either switching to DS, using Dawn or falling off 3D altogether. If you look at Alfaseed, they are offering G2 versions of their clothing alongside V4. Quite telling.


    Sorry, but I honestly don't see the relevance in the above.

    It was about as relevant as your "retired from software" comment, but moreso as I currently work in the industry of digital content development.

    Was DAZ staying on top of tech advances when it first launched its new website? For the sake of staying on top, was it more important to launch a dysfunctional website than it was to meet the customer need for a stable site? If so, someone please show me how we customers (or DAZ for that matter) derived a benefit that outweighed the inconvenience (cost) of launching a site before it was even close to being ready. How many customers did that drive to DAZ?

    Well if you know the history of the old website, the older one was seriously broken as well and couldn't handle the store. Don't want to get into this more than that, but yeah the switch over didn't go over well. But this has no bearing on G1 on G2 as DAZ doesn't make web store or forum software.

    Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).


    Well everyone has their opinions on the subject. However, the main thing you should take in account is that PAs generally make products that bring in money. So if you see more G2 items in the store than G1 or Gen 4, that should tell you where most of the customers are putting their money. PAs aren't going to put out things that don't return on their investment. So probably most of those buyers aren't as concerned with compatibility as you are so it isn't much of an issue to them.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:


    The CS upgrade costs are outliers in the SW industry and it caused a lot of people to hold off on upgrading to the latest version(s). Myself included. As an alternative example, I offer you Microsoft and Windows 8. This was an actual upgrade with upgrade pricing. Although there are clear technical advancements in the O/S between versions 7 and 8, how many IT departments (or individuals running desktops/laptops without touch screens) would consider upgrading from 7 to 8? Here is case where benefit vs. cost is not measured in features provided. Rather, it is about usability and relative disruption to workflows. Even Microsoft understood and acknowledged the enormity of the problem. Hence, Windows 8.1 within a year. Many think that Microsoft did not go far enough in addressing customer concerns.


    But you missed the point about my upgrade comment. Depending on what you upgrade, whether it's Adobe, Modo, Windows, Xbox, etc, there is a cost to upgrading. This is no different for DAZ because they are a software company as well and have to innovate and incorporate advances in technology in their software in their figures. DAZ does have a lower cost as they give you the software free and the base figures free. If you don't want to use the figures, you don't have to install them as you previous generation content did not automatically stop working. Even then with a little manual work, you CAN move your new items over to G2 if you learn how to use the content developer tools. Things like the autofit clones and GenX 2 just make it easier for the end user to do, and as such you have to pay for that service.

    This horse is way past gone. But I have to clarify because it appears that I did not make my point accurately. You imply that I expect to get upgrades for free. I don't. I expect to pay an upgrade price. When we buy a new car, we can trade in the old one or sell the old one to help cover the cost of the new. Same for most hardware, but not for software. We can't trade or sell software, hence upgrade pricing. However, I no longer see G2 as an upgrade. It appears that DAZ has positioned it as a separate product line.

    It is a waste of time trying to convince many of us that it is easy and seamless it is to move from one product line to another. Personally, I know how it is because I have a full compliment of both Gen 4 and Genesis products. I spent countless hours trying to match Gen 4 content with Genesis. If it were easy and seamless, we wouldn't be seeing so many compatibility-related products show up in the store. We wouldn't be seeing so many compatibility-related posts showing up in this forum. If I thought the benefit derived outweighed the cost of my time, I would spend more of it learning the content developer tools (I have already spent way too much, in fact). In my case, as with many others, it is not even worth half the effort. I don't have the time or the inclination.

    And, by the way, I paid full price for DAZ Studio Pro 4.0.

    I refuse to believe that compatibility between characters would hurt the bottom line at DAZ. On the contrary, I believe it would improve the bottom line by including customers (like me) who have decided not to re-invest. Take a look! When DAZ adds new G2 content, is it just a re-hash of older-generation content? No! They are offering content with new features, new looks, etc.. Think about it. With the existing arrangement, if the piece is only compatible with say G2, and there are 100 G2 users, 100 Genesis users, and 100 Gen 4 users who like it, DAZ is still only going to sell 100. However, if there were designed-in compatibilities between generations of characters and users could upgrade without a severe cost/time penalty then DAZ could sell 300. Just look at all the time and energy that goes into finding workarounds for incompatibilities. Especially among the vendors that sell those workarounds. This is time and energy that could be applied to creating content and tools that could reach a larger market, result in happier end users, and provide new potential for profits.


    DAZ's focus is on selling their new tech and the way it's been now, if a G2 piece comes out and it's good enough. You may have users from the G1 buying the outfit and using Sickle's clone to autofit it back to G1... or people from the G1 and Gen 4 group moving to G2 (which has been mostly case.. if you're looking at the increase of G2 items on other sites such as Rendo)

    The whole point here is that many of us are looking for designed-in compatibility that eliminates the need to spend a lot of extra time when new technology is introduced. It is called backward compatibility. It is a very common term in the software industry and it is what most customers want. And most customers are willing to pay for it providing the benefit outweighs the cost.

    DAZ provides the bases for vendors to work on. It's always been like that. But the cool thing about G2 is that you CAN get the compatibility, but you have to do the work yourself. If you wish it to be automatically done, you will have to pay for that service as it takes away from DAZ development of new tech.


    In my view the only thing that is going to change this current cycle, is for end-users to get involved with their voices and their pocketbooks. If the demand shifts to non-acceptance of incompatible product lines, then the provider will need to shift, as well.


    Sounds like you are not too happy with the way it's worked for you with your mobiles. A lot of us are. And guess what, the mobile companies are starting to get the message. All the majors now have early upgrade plans. However, regardless of how badly the mobile companies have acted, how does this make it right for DAZ to do the same?


    No I'm just putting upgrade and technology in perspective. Happens all the time in regular intervals. However even when DAZ does upgrade it's tech, it's much more compatible than the other companies at a smaller cost. The tools in the DS has made it easy for me to rig refitted items to G1 and G2 from previous generations. Perhaps if DAZ made any mistake, it was probably offering autofit in the first place, as it's made people feel they're entitled to compatibility when they had absolutely none of it in previous generations.

    To be quite honest, I find this point of view to be somewhat disturbing. I suspect there are those at DAZ who share it and that is scary. However, I too wish DAZ had not provided autofit. But for different reasons. There would have been very few products available for Genesis and more of us would have had the incentive to focus on strictly on Gen 4 instead. Without autofit and GenX, I doubt very much that Genesis would have survived much past 2011.

    What I see is that DS is: #1. positioned as a tool for vendors to develop goods for sale goods in the DAZ store, then #2. minimally positioned to provide a platform for artists to create art with products sold in the DAZ store. Vendor first, end-user second.

    And mobiles are offering upgrade plans because laws have made it easier for people to take their phones with them when they go to other companies and break their contracts... thus the phone companies have to find ways to keep people with their company, Previously if you wanted to go to another company, you have to buy another phone and ditch your old one... no compatibility... now when your contract is up, you can unlock the phone and take it elsewhere.

    You visit the RDNA forum, so you know that V4 is clearly alive and well on another software platform which hosts it natively. Vendors have supplied enhancements and there is still lots of new and interesting content showing up everyday on various sites.

    Yes and no. If you were to speak to those vendors, they aren't making as much money as more people are either switching to DS, using Dawn or falling off 3D altogether. If you look at Alfaseed, they are offering G2 versions of their clothing alongside V4. Quite telling.

    I think its too early to know how this going to go. I don't see Dawn going anywhere, in large part, for the same reasons many of us reject G2. Incompatibility. Admittedly, there are other reasons. On the other hand, G2 is natively hosted on DS only and a lot of people are not happy with the performance of DSON.


    Sorry, but I honestly don't see the relevance in the above.

    It was about as relevant as your "retired from software" comment, but moreso as I currently work in the industry of digital content development.

    Was DAZ staying on top of tech advances when it first launched its new website? For the sake of staying on top, was it more important to launch a dysfunctional website than it was to meet the customer need for a stable site? If so, someone please show me how we customers (or DAZ for that matter) derived a benefit that outweighed the inconvenience (cost) of launching a site before it was even close to being ready. How many customers did that drive to DAZ?

    Well if you know the history of the old website, the older one was seriously broken as well and couldn't handle the store. Don't want to get into this more than that, but yeah the switch over didn't go over well. But this has no bearing on G1 on G2 as DAZ doesn't make web store or forum software.

    I have heard all the DAZ public excuses for foisting this disastrous website on us. The reason I mention it and why I think it is relevant is that it provides us with valuable insight into how DAZ views it customer base. What I hear DAZ saying is "We do what we think is good for DAZ and risk that customers will get just enough of what they want in the long run". I have seen a pattern of this in the past few years: selling DS and then giving it away for free with no compensation to those who purchased; selling DS and then providing a manual more than two years later. Confidence or arrogance?

    Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).


    Well everyone has their opinions on the subject. However, the main thing you should take in account is that PAs generally make products that bring in money. So if you see more G2 items in the store than G1 or Gen 4, that should tell you where most of the customers are putting their money. PAs aren't going to put out things that don't return on their investment. So probably most of those buyers aren't as concerned with compatibility as you are so it isn't much of an issue to them

    .

    True, I do see a few more items for G2 in the DAZ store. I took a quick inventory of the new items in the store this morning. What I found is: 38 items that support G2 and 36 items that support Genesis/Gen4. Interesting how many items are designed for V4. In other places, I see about the same ratio of Gen4-to-G2 products as we saw for Gen4-to-Genesis in the past couple of years.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited January 2014

    artistb3 said:


    This horse is way past gone. But I have to clarify because it appears that I did not make my point accurately. You imply that I expect to get upgrades for free. I don't. I expect to pay an upgrade price. When we buy a new car, we can trade in the old one or sell the old one to help cover the cost of the new. Same for most hardware, but not for software. We can't trade or sell software, hence upgrade pricing. However, I no longer see G2 as an upgrade. It appears that DAZ has positioned it as a separate product line.


    Well G2 is a new figure, so yeah it is a new product. However, there are ways provided to get your content from the previous generation to work so you don't lose some of your investment, some free, some you do have to pay for the service. So basically that's your cost to move to the new generation. But when you get the software and the base figure free, then I guess the content conversion is your upgrade fee.


    It is a waste of time trying to convince many of us that it is easy and seamless it is to move from one product line to another. Personally, I know how it is because I have a full compliment of both Gen 4 and Genesis products. I spent countless hours trying to match Gen 4 content with Genesis. If it were easy and seamless, we wouldn't be seeing so many compatibility-related products show up in the store. We wouldn't be seeing so many compatibility-related posts showing up in this forum.


    I guess it depends on the skill level of the user. What may be easy for some is difficult for others. And those fall in the later category are probably the ones that have to pay for the services to do it for them. I know it's been fairly easy for me to convert items from Gen3, Gen4 and even other characters such as Poser's Ryan to work with Genesis.

    If I thought the benefit derived outweighed the cost of my time, I would spend more of it learning the content developer tools (I have already spent way too much, in fact). In my case, as with many others, it is not even worth half the effort. I don't have the time or the inclination.


    Then as such you probably have to accept the fact that the cost of moving to a new figure is to pay for those conversion/compatitbility products in which others have taken the time to learn the content development tools. Otherwise, you can always use the Gen4 and Genesis content as they still work in DS4.



    The whole point here is that many of us are looking for designed-in compatibility that eliminates the need to spend a lot of extra time when new technology is introduced. It is called backward compatibility. It is a very common term in the software industry and it is what most customers want. And most customers are willing to pay for it providing the benefit outweighs the cost.


    The way G2 items are selling I doubt the 'many' are looking for backward compatibility. That said, the way G2 is designed, you have the compatibility you're asking for to move morphs and clothing forward, if you use the content tools. It's pretty slick how they've done if you actually looked at it. Since you aren't willing to learn the tools, either you have to pay for the service or you use your older content with G1. The compatibility is designed in such as PAs can provide those tools to the customers rather than DAZ taking the time to do it and keeping tools to do it to themselves. This frees DAZ up to continue innovating the product.


    In my view the only thing that is going to change this current cycle, is for end-users to get involved with their voices and their pocketbooks. If the demand shifts to non-acceptance of incompatible product lines, then the provider will need to shift, as well.

    But the thing is, they have already spoken with their pocketbooks. The V6 stuff sold like crazy. More vendors which didn't want anything to do with Genesis started to make items directly to V6. This which shocked many including PAs considering how on the forum people voiced disapproval... which goes back to the forum users being only a small part of the buying population. I don't think you should confuse your emotional stake in compatibility with the fact that people are buying the G2 items and speaking with their wallets.


    To be quite honest, I find this point of view to be somewhat disturbing. I suspect there are those at DAZ who share it and that is scary. However, I too wish DAZ had not provided autofit. But for different reasons. There would have been very few products available for Genesis and more of us would have had the incentive to focus on strictly on Gen 4 instead. Without autofit and GenX, I doubt very much that Genesis would have survived much past 2011.

    Genesis would have survived, the adoption rate would have been slower. However Gen4 is based on 20 year old technology, while the industry was way past this. What else could you do with gen4? Make more clothing for it? Genesis was the answer to what you can do to move figures forward and it was a risk that DAZ took, and autofit was offered to ease the transition. And moving with G2, it's a risk that turned out to be great for them.

    What I see is that DS is: #1. positioned as a tool for vendors to develop goods for sale goods in the DAZ store, then #2. minimally positioned to provide a platform for artists to create art with products sold in the DAZ store. Vendor first, end-user second.

    Genesis was made to address many complaints of the Gen4 figures for BOTH end users and vendors: bending issues, issues with clothing pokethrough, ability to make more diverse characters without having vendor support for those new shapes. And since it's introduction, not only vendors but end users have come up with some pretty interesting items for the platform. The tools make it simple enough for regular customers to dive in and learn how to create or mod items for their own or for distribution, something that seemed incredibly difficult in previous generations.

    You visit the RDNA forum, so you know that V4 is clearly alive and well on another software platform which hosts it natively. Vendors have supplied enhancements and there is still lots of new and interesting content showing up everyday on various sites.

    Well RDNA has far less traffic than other marketplaces, so it probably seems that way. However, I don't do much with V4 and I used M4, so I know M4 has been relatively unsupported these days. However, what's offered is still the same type of dresses and bras and panties you've seen before so I don't consider much of it that interesting to purchase since I already have those items for V4.


    I think its too early to know how this going to go. I don't see Dawn going anywhere, in large part, for the same reasons many of us reject G2. Incompatibility. Admittedly, there are other reasons. On the other hand, G2 is natively hosted on DS only and a lot of people are not happy with the performance of DSON.

    1) You're still using 'many', unless you can prove this, you probably shouldn't use this term.
    2) Though the DSON importer has room for improvement, it's still much better than it was when it was first released. I loaded G2M in poser the other day and it loaded a lot faster than previously and I was able to pose it and clothe it without much issue. I know more people are using the importer and satisfied with the performance in Poser, once they stopped listening to the misinformation on how bad it is and tried it for themselves.


    I have heard all the DAZ public excuses for foisting this disastrous website on us. The reason I mention it and why I think it is relevant is that it provides us with valuable insight into how DAZ views it customer base. What I hear DAZ saying is "We do what we think is good for DAZ and risk that customers will get just enough of what they want in the long run". I have seen a pattern of this in the past few years: selling DS and then giving it away for free with no compensation to those who purchased; selling DS and then providing a manual more than two years later. Confidence or arrogance?

    I still don't think it's relevant as it has no bearing the general conversation. If anything they've taken their lumps for properly testing items before releasing them. They still have a ways to go, but their releases have been a lot more stable than what they've been in the past because of it.


    True, I do see a few more items for G2 in the DAZ store. I took a quick inventory of the new items in the store this morning. What I found is: 38 items that support G2 and 36 items that support Genesis/Gen4. Interesting how many items are designed for V4. In other places, I see about the same ratio of Gen4-to-G2 products as we saw for Gen4-to-Genesis in the past couple of years.

    Ok so the ratio is higher for G2 than the combined G1/G4? Well considering G2 came out this past summer, that adoption rate is pretty high then... higher than it was with G1 around the same timeframe. Which goes back to me saying that G2 is selling well, regardless of compatibility.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • edited January 2014

    XoechZ said:
    No one is forced to use the "new" figures and drop the "old" ones. If you are happy with V4 or Genesis or whatever, simply stay with it and ignore the others. There is enough content for the "old" figures and it is still selling, so it seems that many people are doing exactly the same.

    The problem is that DAZ stops caring about compatibility or fixing bugs for the old figures. E.g. export to collada or fbx have many new bugs for the old figures in new Daz Studio versions. And the bugs in old versions are never going to be fixed.

    I need to know that I can use a figure for some years. And that in that time DAZ tries to fix the things not working with the figure or its export.
    Maybe in 4 months there will be Genesis3, so all the stuff that does not work with Genesis1/2 will never be fixed, they will tell you "use Genesis3". And with that the same, the stuff that does not work is never fixed, and soon "try to use Genesis65".

    Is there some roadmap such that I can know how long a figure is "valid"??? Let's say I still settle with Genesis2, is there a plan or date for Genesis3? Before we have such a roadmap with dates, I cannot invest anymore money in figures that will probably not get bugs fixed or working exporters.

    If I know a figure is here to stay for say 4-5 years, I can at least believe that DAZ will try to fix bugs. With the current model, DAZ has no incentive at all to fix bugs!!!!

    Post edited by f00bar.root_6039d0dd5c on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited December 1969

    artistb3 said:
    Exactly the point. It is a new product line with a few new features but significant new costs to the end user.

    Want to keep up with the new technology? Want compatibility with previous product lines? Prepare to invest heavily (time and money).

    The message I have been trying to convey here is that if we want new technology and compatibility, there is a way to help create a change in direction. But it is going to require that the user base weigh-in significantly with our voices and pocketbooks in order to make this happen.

    Personally, I think DAZ is missing the economic boat by making the product decisions they have made. It doesn't take much imagination to see the possibilities that exist when product decisions don't result in the alienation of a large portion of the existing customer base.

    I have to just laugh when I hear things like this. In order to accurately say DAZ has made an economic mistake, you have to first be able to accurately say that they have lost sales from these decisions instead of massively gained them. Speaking as a DAZ vendor who started here with Genesis and now makes content for G2, whatever they're doing, it's extremely successful.

    Backward compatibility is promised to no one in any product line. The fact that DAZ even lets us third parties make intercompatibility facilitators is generous (speaking as the maker of those facilitators), because it allows people to not upgrade to the newest figures when DAZ has the most investment in that tech. (I'm guessing they do it because of the Gen 3 and 4 Plat Club sales.) Remember that the most powerful interconverter is AutoFit, and AutoFit is made by DAZ, not by third parties.

    I agree with Sickle that it's unlikely that DAZ have made an economic mistake with Gen2. I think they have pulled in a lot of new users to make up for alienating older users and the reality is that many of us older users buy less anyway as we have large runtimes and we become more choosy about what we buy.

    New users still have to build their runtimes up...

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