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Posted: 14 January 2014 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]
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Greetings,
Ah! I’m embarassed, I didn’t mean to go in that direction.  Thank you for the kind words.

My direction was that I, and I think others, use the tool to visualize scenes.  Sometimes stories, sometimes just…well, scenes of a prurient interest.  (I should blush here, but I’m doing enough of that as it stands.)

I do think the software lends itself to a paint-by-numbers kind of use.  Load an environment, pick a character and hair, pick a pose for both, pick some clothing, a lighting rig that you’re comfortable with, do a little adjustment to everything to make it feel cohesive, a few test renders and tweaks, and then one big overnight render (hopefully only one!), followed by a touch of post-work.  It’s about as paint-by-numbers as you get, short of downloading one of the R2R sets from DAZ, and clicking ‘Make Art’. wink  Sure, the more time you spend on pretty much any step, the better the result will be.  Not necessarily the more photo-real, but the more ‘complete’ feeling it will be, at least.  I think that the goal should be ‘complete’ feeling images, not…necessarily photorealistic.

Beyond that, photo-real work demands a level of dedication that very few folks can muster, and as much as the OP believes it’s all about textures, and others believe it’s all about lighting, I argue that it’s about ALL of it, and all the other details.  Floating, collision, placement, environment, plausible pose, ‘feel’, and more and more that I can’t even know at my skill level.  (‘unknown unknowns’?)

I very much appreciate the words of encouragement, but I do still feel a bit bad that I’m contributing to the ‘DS/Poser is for pinups’ outside world view, mainly because I don’t really have the personal time to compose much more involved scenes.  The thing is, that with the time that I can dedicate to it, I can do so incredibly much more than I can with a pencil and paper, and despite it not usually being realistic, involving, or thought-provoking, it makes me happy to create.

I guess what I’m saying, to tie it all back to the original thread, is that…I can’t fool you.  But I’m okay with that.

smile

— Morgan

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Posted: 14 January 2014 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]
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Cypherfox - 14 January 2014 01:40 PM

Greetings,
Meh…  I most often render pinups, partly because the renders come out of playing with content I’ve picked up, instead of starting with a story, so the characters don’t have ‘motivations’ to do anything more than sit there.

The thing is, not every image that is not “story-type” is a pin-up. At least, the way I understand the word. Pin-ups are the “sexy” kind. Any other image that the artist didn’t intend to have a lot of “depth” could be called a “study”.

I just looked at your gallery actually… and it looks to me that quite a few of your images are of the “story” kind actually. Maybe that wasn’t your conscious intention, I can’t say; but if it weren’t, the better it is! It means you do have “something to say”, and to me, it’s the No 1 quality in a real artist.

SickleYield - 14 January 2014 04:11 PM

Just the fact of a pretty body and/or pretty face on the screen neither adds nor subtracts merit from my perspective.  I work in 3d on human figures.  I’m completely desensitized to these visuals if that’s all that’s in the scene.

“Desensitized”. A good word, SY; I think I’ll steal it. Most people would be able to understand it.

TMI and alien perspective incoming, read on at your own risk: I guess one of the reasons I get so adamant and defensive about my stuff not being pin-ups, is because I’m asexual (just in case, here’s an explanation… Naturally desensitized, in other words). To me, humans are just like any other animals or objects: some are aesthetically pleasing, and that’s that. So I’m actually always afraid that I am sending the wrong message with my aesthetic choices. I want to be taken seriously, but most often I’m not; and I have no idea what exactly I am doing wrong (apart from me having poor artistic skills like composition etc due to lack of training).

It’s funny: whenever I received any sort of attempted constructive criticism (I think it happened twice during all my years at dA), it was the technical side of 3D. But never have I received any suggestions as to how I could improve from a genuine artistic standpoint. Does it happen like that to everyone?

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Posted: 14 January 2014 07:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]
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nevermind I reread the email

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Posted: 14 January 2014 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]
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There are some people who use 3D only to create porn only to say it’s not porn, it’s art, cause it’s not a real person.  On the flip side, I have had a few people tell me that any art produced on a computer is not real art.  Actually got into a rather heated argument about it once.

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Posted: 14 January 2014 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]
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FaerylWomyn - 14 January 2014 10:01 PM

There are some people who use 3D only to create porn only to say it’s not porn, it’s art, cause it’s not a real person.  On the flip side, I have had a few people tell me that any art produced on a computer is not real art.  Actually got into a rather heated argument about it once.

LOL

I’m not getting into the “is 3d art” debate.  Someone starts a new thread for that every couple of months.

Porn is not distinct from “art,” because art is not determined by subject matter.  It’s just rarer that they overlap because most of it is not very high in quality.  Occasionally I’ve seen a sex scene or other clearly pornographic material that was beautifully rendered, well-lit, well-composed, and lifelike.  It’s just not common.

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Posted: 15 January 2014 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]
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Cypherfox - 14 January 2014 05:00 PM

Beyond that, photo-real work demands a level of dedication that very few folks can muster, and as much as the OP believes it’s all about textures, and others believe it’s all about lighting, I argue that it’s about ALL of it, and all the other details.  Floating, collision, placement, environment, plausible pose, ‘feel’, and more and more that I can’t even know at my skill level.  (‘unknown unknowns’?)

I very much appreciate the words of encouragement, but I do still feel a bit bad that I’m contributing to the ‘DS/Poser is for pinups’ outside world view, mainly because I don’t really have the personal time to compose much more involved scenes.  The thing is, that with the time that I can dedicate to it, I can do so incredibly much more than I can with a pencil and paper, and despite it not usually being realistic, involving, or thought-provoking, it makes me happy to create.

I guess what I’m saying, to tie it all back to the original thread, is that…I can’t fool you.  But I’m okay with that.

smile

— Morgan

Couldn’t agree more or have said it any better - it is all about everything in the scene/render (you’ve got some great renders to prove it). I don’t know how many images I’ve looked at because the thumb looked awesome, only to see the rest of the image look flat, or to see the figure(s) floating over the background they are supposed to be standing on. I’m quite sure I’ve been guilty of the same thing, I just hope that my work is improving over time, and that at least a few other people actually enjoy seeing my images.

I have limited time as well, as a result, I spend a lot of time re-learning what I learned a month or two ago. Even with the re-learning, I am still able to make images that I at least like. I have very limited artistic talent, so using a pencil and paper would be my very last option. Technical drawings - not a problem, artistic drawings - big problem!

I’m definitely not trying to fool anyone, which is a good thing! But, thanks to DS, Poser, and Carrara, I’m able to make images that definitely look three dimensional, and enjoy myself while doing it.

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Posted: 15 January 2014 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]
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Several posts have been removed from this thread - this is not the forum for debates on porn and violence.

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Posted: 15 January 2014 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]
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Like that last image Snowpheonix, interesting character.  As to the use of violence and sex in anything.  Everyone is going to react to it differently and it will impact the lives of those people in different ways.  In my life, I have a problem son, 23 years old and he still gives me a headache.  He has anger and aggression problems.  Playing violent games keeps him calm.  He acts out in the games instead of in real life.  I am not saying that will be the case for everyone, yet it is something to consider.  Images or whatnots that slap me in the face are not something I will not enjoy viewing and will avoid it.  I agree about the skimp wear.  There is so much of it I am actually bored with it.  Unless it’s for males, there isn’t enough skimp wear for males, there isn’t enough anything for males, it’s mostly for females and hate to burst the vendors bubbles, but I don’t swing that way…lol

Edit…Sorry Richard, you posted while I was creating this post.  Hope this cleaned up version is okay?

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Posted: 15 January 2014 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]
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FaerylWomyn - 15 January 2014 09:52 AM

Like that last image Snowpheonix, interesting character.  Images or whatnots that slap me in the face are not something I will not enjoy viewing and will avoid it.  I agree about the skimp wear.  There is so much of it I am actually bored with it.  Unless it’s for males, there isn’t enough skimp wear for males, there isn’t enough anything for males, it’s mostly for females and hate to burst the vendors bubbles, but I don’t swing that way…lol

We so agree on the skimpwear.. I’m mean, it’s almost like you have the suite, casual, jogger and then a lot of really overpriced items that I wish I had the money to buy when it comes to male clothing.  I do love the super suite.  It really is tricky because I like outfits that are versatile.

I have to say that I"m really happy with the current set of characters.. 

The image was Skullduggery by Age of Armor, I also used his advanced light sets which I LOVE>  Oh, but I put it on V6 HD body.. translates really well.  I’m finding things in my runtime I never see because there are so many items in it… sometimes it takes a few moments just to open the folders and I have a really fast machine.

I wonder how to get that better organized.

http://www.daz3d.com/skulduggery

Thanks for the kind response.  (respect)

 

 

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Posted: 15 January 2014 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]
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I hope I don’t come off sounding offensive as I really do highly respect all forms of art & creative expression. I appreciate the effort and mastery that goes into making “photo real” renders but they usually don’t “fool me” or appeal to me.  I often prefer stylized art because it is more flexible and thus can be more expressive and show things like internal states, visions & dreams that can’t be reflected through realism.  I do try to learn the concepts of creating realistic looking images though so I can intentionally choose which aspects may strengthen my work.

There are several reasons “photo real” renders don’t fool me, sometimes it’s hard to put your finger on it but they usually just look off. Natural looking lighting, surfaces, poses, etc. are obliviously important factors but what usually gives it away to me most are facial expressions.  There are dozens of muscles just in the face alone that all interact to express emotion. I think these are incredibly difficult to fake without digitizing them or spending many years mastering them and then many hours sculpting them all out by hand.  I think this is the reason most “photo real” renders only show very neutral looking faces. I would like to see a clearly visible “photo real” rendered close up of someone screaming for their life that looks real.  There also are issues with the “uncanny valley” the more real an image looks the more disturbing and off putting it can be.

“Photo real” renders usually do not appeal to me, I usually don’t find them interesting or that they bring much new to the table. They usually are images of a normal person, with a plain expression and a simple background with little to no narrative elements.  When I’m in the mood for realism I often find photography more interesting to look at because it actually is a capture of something real.  I can even just go outside. Now I do find “photo real” images that incorporate fantasy or sci-fi more interesting because they offer something I can’t easily find through other channels but I find these less common, probably because they are harder to pull off or maybe artists focused on realism are less interested in those genres? 

Even if one is able to fool people into thinking a render is a real photo, what does that accomplish for the viewer?  Either they just think they saw a photo or maybe later they are informed that they were fooled and they either feel stupid or are amazed at the artists ability.  Personalty I’ve seen enough amazing accomplishments that I hardly respond to something being great just for the sake of greatness.  I care about what is the actual experience, narrative, feeling, content, what does it make me think about, etc.  That is more memorable and has more of an impact on my life. 

The strange thing is that it’s not the most realistic images that are easiest for me to experience or accept as real.  If stylized art is expressive, captivating and well composed, I’m more willing to step inside that world than something that looks real but otherwise I don’t find captivating.  I will feel more attached to animated characters in a well done show than live actors is a poorly written movie. 

Recently I saw a video that I find somewhat related to this discussion, it’s on the difference between graphics & aesthetics in video games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oK8UTRgvJU

I also found an interesting poll on dA by the digital-artists group: http://digital-artists.deviantart.com/journal/poll/2737945/

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Posted: 15 January 2014 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]
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Swawa3D - 15 January 2014 04:30 PM

I hope I don’t come off sounding offensive as I really do highly respect all forms of art & creative expression. I appreciate the effort and mastery that goes into making “photo real” renders but they usually don’t “fool me” or appeal to me.  I often prefer stylized art because it is more flexible and thus can be more expressive and show things like internal states, visions & dreams that can’t be reflected through realism.  I do try to learn the concepts of creating realistic looking images though so I can intentionally choose which aspects may strengthen my work.

There are several reasons “photo real” renders don’t fool me, sometimes it’s hard to put your finger on it but they usually just look off. Natural looking lighting, surfaces, poses, etc. are obliviously important factors but what usually gives it away to me most are facial expressions.  There are dozens of muscles just in the face alone that all interact to express emotion. I think these are incredibly difficult to fake without digitizing them or spending many years mastering them and then many hours sculpting them all out by hand.  I think this is the reason most “photo real” renders only show very neutral looking faces. I would like to see a clearly visible “photo real” rendered close up of someone screaming for their life that looks real.  There also are issues with the “uncanny valley” the more real an image looks the more disturbing and off putting it can be.

“Photo real” renders usually do not appeal to me, I usually don’t find them interesting or that they bring much new to the table. They usually are images of a normal person, with a plain expression and a simple background with little to no narrative elements.  When I’m in the mood for realism I often find photography more interesting to look at because it actually is a capture of something real.  I can even just go outside. Now I do find “photo real” images that incorporate fantasy or sci-fi more interesting because they offer something I can’t easily find through other channels but I find these less common, probably because they are harder to pull off or maybe artists focused on realism are less interested in those genres? 

Even if one is able to fool people into thinking a render is a real photo, what does that accomplish for the viewer?  Either they just think they saw a photo or maybe later they are informed that they were fooled and they either feel stupid or are amazed at the artists ability.  Personalty I’ve seen enough amazing accomplishments that I hardly respond to something being great just for the sake of greatness.  I care about what is the actual experience, narrative, feeling, content, what does it make me think about, etc.  That is more memorable and has more of an impact on my life. 

The strange thing is that it’s not the most realistic images that are easiest for me to experience or accept as real.  If stylized art is expressive, captivating and well composed, I’m more willing to step inside that world than something that looks real but otherwise I don’t find captivating.  I will feel more attached to animated characters in a well done show than live actors is a poorly written movie. 

Recently I saw a video that I find somewhat related to this discussion, it’s on the difference between graphics & aesthetics in video games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oK8UTRgvJU

I also found an interesting poll on dA by the digital-artists group: http://digital-artists.deviantart.com/journal/poll/2737945/

You have got some good points there wink

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Posted: 15 January 2014 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]
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One thing I haven’t seen specifically addressed about realism is the setting. Placing a person in a situation or location that is implausible or impossible in the real world, no matter how well rendered and postworked is always going to break the sense of realism. When I do those types of scenes, I usually go either for the realistic diorama or painted art looks.

To the best of my knowledge, I have never been fooled by an untouched render of a human from any engine, though I have been at least initially fooled by many a render that have included some level of postwork, and usually a lot. Silhouettes of humans and such where you can’t make out detail don’t count for the purpose of this argument imho. But just because I don’t think I’ve been fooled doesn’t mean that I haven’t admired the artistry, dedication, and talent of many of the artists around here who give it a try.

BTW Snowpheonix, I believe your renders are definitely improving! Keep it up.

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Posted: 15 January 2014 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]
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Swawa3D - 15 January 2014 04:30 PM

...Even if one is able to fool people into thinking a render is a real photo, what does that accomplish for the viewer…?

It depends on the purpose of the render. Photo-real renders would be very useful to me at times when doing book covers. After all, we see it in movies all the time. A photo-real rendering would be useless in a movie like Frozen, but it was the entire basis for the movie Avatar.

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Posted: 15 January 2014 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]
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I’ve done several photo-realistic images with Reality/LuxRender. They are all nudes.

Here is the face of a woman sunbathing on her bed. Face shot only,

For extra realism I use magnets to deform hats for example (the hat’s rim as shown in this case) and dynamic clothing (bed sheets as shown in this case).

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Posted: 15 January 2014 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]
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I also wanted to say that even though “photo real” images are not my favorite style, I still can appreciate them.  I’ve seen some amazing renders posted here and I did not mean to take away from them with all the philosophy.  I feel that I often learn the most from discussing things with people that think differently.

@ direwrath2000:  Thanks.

Silverhurst - 15 January 2014 08:06 PM

One thing I haven’t seen specifically addressed about realism is the setting. Placing a person in a situation or location that is implausible or impossible in the real world, no matter how well rendered and postworked is always going to break the sense of realism. When I do those types of scenes, I usually go either for the realistic diorama or painted art looks.

I was rambling off on a bunch of tangents and forgot to address this.  I think it’s important to note the difference between trying to literally trick someone into thinking something is real vs. just intending for something to look realistic even though it’s known to be fiction. There also is the concept of “suspension of disbelief”, where they say “It’s easier to believe the impossible than the improbable.” Now this might be directed more towards movies and stories but personally I have experience it even with stylized 3D still frames when I let my imagination take control.

http://www.hungermtn.org/the-improbable-the-impossible-and-the-willing-suspension-of-disbelief-in-science-fiction-and-fantasy/

TheWheelMan - 15 January 2014 08:06 PM
Swawa3D - 15 January 2014 08:06 PM

...Even if one is able to fool people into thinking a render is a real photo, what does that accomplish for the viewer…?

It depends on the purpose of the render. Photo-real renders would be very useful to me at times when doing book covers. After all, we see it in movies all the time. A photo-real rendering would be useless in a movie like Frozen, but it was the entire basis for the movie Avatar.

I guess that is my point.  What is the purpose of the specific render?  What is being communicated and how will the style effect that.  If your using it as a book cover and a realistic 3D render is the best fit you can achieve for that project then that’s great.  Although in some cases would a photo, illustration,  stylized image, schematic or even just text make a more suitable cover? It all depends on the book.

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