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The future of Bryce?
Posted: 23 October 2013 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Hello! Is there news on updates of Bryce? B8?

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Posted: 23 October 2013 08:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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No news yet. Chohole posted in another thread somewhere that currently DS, Carrara
are in the development cycles. So I guess we could assume that once those develpment cycles are finished they’ll start looking at Bryce again. When that will be no-one seems to know outside the DAZ ‘need to know’ group I expect. I wouldn’t hold my breath…I personally am hoping it will be next year.

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Posted: 24 October 2013 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Eva1 - 23 October 2013 08:39 PM

So I guess we could assume that once those development cycles are finished they’ll start looking at Bryce again.

... I don’t see how this assumption follows.

Neither DS nor Carrara have 3 year development cycles: most software is either constantly updated or has yearly cycles. As the last release of Bryce was in 2010, and there hasn’t been so much as a bug-fix let alone an update since then.

The assumption that follows is that Bryce is no longer in any development cycles.

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Posted: 25 October 2013 01:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Studio and Carrara have dedicated dev teams as far as I’ve gathered from the bios of some staff that was published on the old forum site. Maybe that changed in the meantime, I wouldn’t know. Currently, there are no Bryce supporters at DAZ3D HQ as far as I can tell. The last ones left about a year ago. We should not forget that Bryce is in many ways way ahead of other 3D applications (though certainly not for being 32 bit) and there are not many people able to grasp what jewel they own. Stop development and keep up the bugs is certainly a good way to give the competition time to catch up.

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Posted: 25 October 2013 10:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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If Bryce has reached the point of being abandonware, I’d like to see it fall back into the hands of someone that’s worked on it in the past, like Kai Krause or Ken Musgrave. 

I know some people would want Eric Wenger to get involved, but were that to happen, I think we’d end up with a Mac-only product that sells for $600.

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Posted: 26 October 2013 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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aarrgghhh - 25 October 2013 10:53 PM

If Bryce has reached the point of being abandonware, I’d like to see it fall back into the hands of someone that’s worked on it in the past, like Kai Krause or Ken Musgrave. 

I know some people would want Eric Wenger to get involved, but were that to happen, I think we’d end up with a Mac-only product that sells for $600.

They wouldn’t want it. Unlike Bryce, they’ve moved on.

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Posted: 27 October 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I like many other would be crushed to see Bryce die. It is a great tool. I have been working with Bryce since version 2.0

Now the bad news is if you look in the market place Bryce 7 pro is selling for $20 . To me this is a sign that Daz 3d has kicked Bryce in the corner like an unwanted step child. This makes me very sad as Companies have a habit to discount price software they are sun setting and say screw the community.

I have a feeling once other tools get a following they will jack the prices up and leave Bryce to die ( no updated for almost 3 years is an indicator that a software has been abandoned).  I think they are attempting to position Carrera to “Fill” in the void from them abandoning Bryce.  Just my 2 cents but as I work in the Software development world I have seen companies do this Time and Again. Daz 3d has become another pure profit company with not regard for community loyalty to a product. If they were to release Bryce 8 as just 64-bit with a couple additional features I believe many in the community would pay a bit higher price point to get it( a bit more than the original $99 I have paid over the years for the other versions of Bryce)..

As such I do not believe this is going to happen. Believe it or not I introduced my daughter to 3d graphics using Bryce. She got into it so much she is going to Ringling university next fall to study Computer animation. Many of you may not know this but Ringling produces many of the top animators that the studios use for their movies now days.

It will be a sad day when there will not be Tools like Bryce to inspire you people to get into 3d work. downer

Bryce on,

SpecMan

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Posted: 27 October 2013 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Oroboros - 26 October 2013 04:33 PM

They wouldn’t want it. Unlike Bryce, they’ve moved on.

Well, Eric Wenger has moved on.  I’m not sure that Kai Krause and Ken Musgrave have moved on.  Kai Krause is being a recluse and won’t tell anyone what he’s working on (if anything).  The last I heard of Ken Musgrave, he was selling real estate, the MojoWorld site hasn’t been updated since 2006, I really don’t know what he’s working on, either. 

MojoWorld had so much potential, but the interface, imo, was just too hard to work with.

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Posted: 27 October 2013 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Specman - 27 October 2013 05:49 PM

I like many other would be crushed to see Bryce die.

I suggest you start buying new clothes that fit your new figure.

Now the bad news is if you look in the market place Bryce 7 pro is selling for $20 . To me this is a sign that Daz 3d has kicked Bryce in the corner like an unwanted step child. This makes me very sad as Companies have a habit to discount price software they are sun setting and say screw the community.


...What? No. When Bryce 7 Pro was offered for FREE for 18 months - THAT was a sign that DAZ was killing the product line. When DAZ subsequently started selling it for $20, that was a sign they’d gone into software necrophilia.

Also… I think your parenting metaphors are somewhat darkly Victorian. Bryce isn’t THAT old. Just saying.

It will be a sad day when there will not be Tools like Bryce to inspire you people to get into 3d work. downer


Jeez… So many fatalists in these types of threads.

Bryce is no longer being developed. Whatever. This is very, very different from “Bryce is no longer being USED.”

Like my first guitar, the memory of using Bryce and enjoying it will always be with me. I still have my first guitar, and hoo boy, is it in need of repair (especially the bridge). Even with new strings it sounds buzzy on the fretboard. But I still use that guitar to nut out a melody or chord progression. I wouldn’t use it for a finished track, because I’m after a quality of sound that my guitar just can’t deliver.

I pretty much only use Bryce for simple, fast animations. Most of my modeling’s now done with either Blender or Sculptris, then brought into Bryce for finishing. Why not do it all in Bryce? Because Bryce exported objects don’t have the rigor demanded by current, high-end applications. I can make things in other programs and deliver them to Bryce: it’s extremely hazardous going the other way.

There are MANY 3D apps people can use for 3D. Not all of these are appropriate for introductions, but even with the most complex app you don’t start by learning everything at once. What makes them different to one another is purpose and interface. After using other apps I now find the Bryce interface to be extremely unwieldy for modeling and animation. Some of this opinion is based on my experience with other apps, but mostly it’s based on Bryce’s inflexibility and redundancy of its historical interface. Bryce’s interface has not grown with its very large, yet buggy, feature set.

Bryce’s interface (which hasn’t fundamentally changed since its inception) is no longer appropriate for the new-to-3D fringe audience it garnered in the mid-late 90’s. Current-Bryce might have traction in 10-15 year olds, learning 3D concepts. But even the kids have moved on. I feel ill-at-ease thinking that my intro to 3D should be their intro to 3D. Back then we didn’t have Leap Motion controllers, Oculus Rift technology, even 3DConnexion SpaceMice, all of which make Bryce’s clunky, window-trapped, icon-based interface largely redundant and overly complex.

But I’ll keep my hand in with Bryce for the next 18 months. I still use it, though less and less. No regrets. I believe DAZ is far past the point of yelling “SURPRISE! NEW VERSION!!!”, because all traction on Bryce’s brand name is lost. There might be room for a de-featured version for the iPad, that allows you to put selfies on fantastic, self-composed backdrops, but don’t hold your breath: if idea like that works for Bryce, then it’ll work for Carrara, and ONE of those software items is being developed.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Oroboros - 27 October 2013 09:49 PM

Bryce is no longer being developed. Whatever. This is very, very different from “Bryce is no longer being USED.”

Yes, but the problem is that there are enhancements that Bryce needs, and which won’t happen without development.  IMO, it needs to be 64-bit, and it needs to use OpenGL to render.  If development ends, we’ll never see these or any other enhancements. 

Also, eventually, there will be OS incompatibility.  The versions that currently work on Windows and Mac will need to be upgraded to work with future versions of Windows and Mac.   

So, someone needs to step in and save Bryce from the abandonware bin.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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aarrgghhh - 28 October 2013 01:40 AM
Oroboros - 27 October 2013 09:49 PM

Bryce is no longer being developed. Whatever. This is very, very different from “Bryce is no longer being USED.”

Yes, but the problem is that there are enhancements that Bryce needs, and which won’t happen without development.  IMO, it needs to be 64-bit, and it needs to use OpenGL to render.  If development ends, we’ll never see these or any other enhancements.

The people using Bryce don’t need 64-bit nor OpenGL. Primarily because they’re using OSs that allow Bryce functionality without 64-bit nor OpenGL.

Dude, development has ENDED. It’s been over 3 years since any official word regarding Bryce development has been mentioned. No customer emails, no magazine/blogosphere interviews, website announcements, Kickstarter projects. NOTHING. The best, literally, the BEST, you can hope for is one of three things:

1) Bits of the Bryce featureset will be frankensteined into either DAZ Studio or Carrara, or a spin-off app for the iPad will be launched;

2) DAZ 3D will sell Bryce to a party interested in developing it, or;

3) DAZ 3D will launch a crowdfunding campaign to re-vitalise Bryce.

And, just to address it:

4) DAZ 3D will sell/ giveaway the sourcecode to Bryce to an Opensource project groupNO MONEY FOR DAZ IN IT = WILL NOT HAPPEN.

My best estimate: 2) or 3) requires 4-6 coders full time for at least 3 years to dig through and re-invent what is largely undocumented, foreign code. Add 4 testers, a project lead and a couple of support peeps to glue this all together, not to mention a re-launch marketing campaign that will have to set fire to a pretty cynical and flooded 3D market. The entire UI will have to be re-designed to take into account hi-res screens, the controllers I mentioned in my penultimate post, and we haven’t even BEGUN with porting Axiom, the proprietary code driving the fractal algorithms Bryce uses, to a language that people program in today, using modern coding practices (Jira/GIT/STASH, anyone?).

If you see change out of US$2.4M, consider yourself lucky. If you spend US$2.4M, you’ll want to earn at least 60% on that over the next year, so you can continue to develop Bryce. So plan on getting in US$3.8M in sales. Let’s say you’re selling it for Bryce’s current price: US$20. You have to move 192,000 copies.

Sound doable? 192,000 copies? Sounds like you could do that just in the US alone, right? Nope. The tricky bit is the market. Currently, Maya and 3DS are the industry heavyweights. If you want to have a skillset that’s transferable, you want to have an app that at least nods to how one or both of these apps work. That’s one key. The second key is making this power easy to use. During the upgrade process from Bryce 6 to 7, many experienced Bryce users had input into the feature set 7 eventually came up with. Many of the features were fantastic… on paper. But in practice, even excluding the bugs, many of the new features were just too difficult to understand for new users. They were advanced user features thrust into an app whose core market was beginners.

Bryce has reached its limit. It’s done. It has run its course, like so many other great apps of the day, like Multiplan, PageMaker, Mac OS Classic, Windows 3.11, Netscape Navigator and many, many others Bryce has reached the point where the cost of maintenance has exceeded the cost of income and/or its demand. People can still keep using it, DAZ can still keep selling it, but passionate arguments don’t move units. Large groups of people move units. The undeniable fact is that if there was a large, active base of Bryce users, DAZ would want to keep them by continually maintaining the software. DAZ hasn’t, so we aren’t, however passionate we might feel about Bryce.

Also, eventually, there will be OS incompatibility.

“Eventually”???

Embrace change. Bryce can still work for you on a legacy partition. 3D software is among the most hotly contested categories of software looking for your dollar (even the so-called ‘free’ apps could really use a donation from time-to-time, folks). Bringing an app up to current data conventions IS NOT AN UPGRADE. That’s just a compatibility revision or bugfix. You don’t ‘upgrade’ to what’s current.

It’s not enough for Bryce just to get to ‘current’. Otherwise it’s forever lagging behind.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Oroboros - 28 October 2013 05:47 AM

The people using Bryce don’t need 64-bit nor OpenGL. Primarily because they’re using OSs that allow Bryce functionality without 64-bit nor OpenGL.

That’s debatable.  Those are features, particularly OpenGL/GPU rendering, that I would be willing to spend money on.

Oroboros - 28 October 2013 05:47 AM

... The best, literally, the BEST, you can hope for is one of three things:

1) Bits of the Bryce featureset will be frankensteined into either DAZ Studio or Carrara, or a spin-off app for the iPad will be launched;

2) DAZ 3D will sell Bryce to a party interested in developing it, or;

3) DAZ 3D will launch a crowdfunding campaign to re-vitalise Bryce.

And, just to address it:

4) DAZ 3D will sell/ giveaway the sourcecode to Bryce to an Opensource project groupNO MONEY FOR DAZ IN IT = WILL NOT HAPPEN.

1) That’s far from ideal. 

2) That is ideal, that’s the best outcome. 

3) I’m not sure that it would raise enough cash. 

4) That would certainly be better than just burying the source code, but corporate greed makes it unlikely. 

Anyway, I think you’re being a fatalist.  I’m not quite ready to throw in the towel.  I still feel it’s possible for Daz to find a party interested in further Bryce development.  People involved in past development would seem to me to be the most likely to be interested, but finding new developers is certainly a very real possibility.  I wouldn’t declare future development dead just yet.

 

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Posted: 28 October 2013 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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aarrgghhh - 28 October 2013 02:54 PM

Anyway, I think you’re being a fatalist.  I’m not quite ready to throw in the towel.  I still feel it’s possible for Daz to find a party interested in further Bryce development.  People involved in past development would seem to me to be the most likely to be interested, but finding new developers is certainly a very real possibility.  I wouldn’t declare future development dead just yet.

In order to begin, the new buyer of Bryce has to answer some pretty tough questions.

0) How much does DAZ value the price of Bryce’s IP and goodwill?

1) Who’s Bryce aimed at?

2) What will the new Bryce do that is different to its competitors?

3) How long will it take to make a marketable product out of Bryce?

4) If the product is to change to handle modern advances in UI and technology, WILL IT STILL BE BRYCE? If not… Why not just make something different from a clean slate? At least that way we don’t have to shell out craploads of cash just to buy old software and spend years porting and testing undocumented code…

Notice that none of these questions are about software development, really . These are big-picture marketing questions. It’s pointless spending millions of dollars for a product that only brings in thousands of dollars with no path to profit. What’s more, you and I, as users, have no perspective on these questions: We’re not privileged to DAZ’s sales figures and costs.

I’m not a fatalist, but I am a software atheist smile That is, I refuse to pin my hopes on something that might happen without any evidence to support it. Over the last 5 years I’ve seen a marked downturn in traffic to this site. Granted, this forum isn’t the only one for Bryce-users, and there were probably hundreds of Bryce users who didn’t use, or know about, this site. But as a person working a technical writer for an enterprise-level software company, with experience in marketing, I cannot see any economic benefit in purchasing Bryce in order to continue developing it for a vanishing clientele, just speculative hopes and dreams from sentimental users who can ALWAYS find small scale features, but can NEVER see the big picture, ironically.

Are you able to offer a realistic pathway to Bryce’s resurrection? One that answers my four questions? I’m particularly interested in answers to 1) and 2), as these questions define Bryce, and it may be that some features will need to be either excluded or made accessible in a very different way, in order to fit the Bryce paradigm.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Oroboros there are far more Brycers around who have the same feelings as aarrgghhh does than you seem to think.  Brycers have always tended to be fairly quiet, forum wise but that doesn’t mean they are not still around.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 09:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I haven’t had Bryce that long just since version 5 but it still does a good job for me…...I will stick with it thick or thin..
Who is Bryce aimed at? Well I guess anyone who wants to use a great 3d program…and in my view Bryce7Pro is already a marketable product…...Its in the top 23 sellers at Daz….The new features??? It already does things that no one knew about till David and Horo started their experiments with it…..Check out the videos on you tube and then tell me what it can’t do…..Sure if you want to compare it to Houdini or Zbrush fine they would win hands down but for the price Bryce its a great program…..Carrara and Studio get updated all the time because Daz is in the business of selling models… and if they didn’t keep updating whos to say how long they would last…..any model they can put in those 2, I can always use in Bryce….Michael Frank has already shown what a great modeling job it does….The reason I think its not updated is because the programing language its written in and not a lot of people are able to write for it ask Horo if you want to know about that…...Trish   p.s. when you say who is Bryce aimed at well who is Carrara or Studio aimed at .....People who want to buy models..

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Posted: 29 October 2013 02:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Oroboros - 28 October 2013 05:47 AM

Dude, development has ENDED. It’s been over 3 years since any official word regarding Bryce development has been mentioned.

2 years, 2 months and 2 weeks have gone today since the last compilation of the code. That’s slightly less than over 3 years.

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