Critiques Invited for an "In Memoriam" poster.

head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
edited June 2012 in Carrara Discussion

Hi, well a friend of mine died tragically last week. We buried him on Tuesday. He was 39, an ace surfer, and a member of our kneeboard club. We held a paddle out for him on Sunday and eighty surfers arrived at 5.30 am in the dark middle of winter to pay their respects. That's not counting the friends who stood and shivered on the beach. The funeral spilled out onto the street and I stood in the rain with about forty others and watched the proceedings on a a big plasma screen... ahh technology and death, who would have thought....

So I got in im my head to do an in memoriam poster. It's been a struggle, the render times as they are for a big project. Anyway,below there's a picture of Shannon I took in 2004. Oddly enough my first attempt at morphing mike into Shannon's head wasn't bad, but the finished image compostion etc was looking a bit silly. (Plus the board logo is back to front:) )

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fa-6fH9SzIE/T-1gXsc2jXI/AAAAAAAAGP0/xZXQ86TCAYM/s1600/Doc6bAndrewFinnie.jpg

so I played around yesterday and finally realised it would be better not to have his face in it at all. So After working on it all day to day I came up with this. (The second last image at the end of post)


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ayxGpAB3Xds/T-1geZ8MMyI/AAAAAAAAGP8/8CPSlp4kSiw/s1600/NEWNEWDoc6a.jpg

Now so a kneeboarder rides on his knees. The image is supposed to be of Shannon in the 'barrel'. His left hand is doing "Hang Loose".
I think a surfer would recognise it (the barrel, tube, cover up, in the green room) but don't know about 'laymen'. It's not meant to be photo realistic, just to suggest the idea. In the end it will be a poster for theother guys in the club.(I hope) I realise there is mesh error in the board and I tried to hide it in post :) As I did with the lousy texturing (You can see these both in the last image)


So my questions, can you tell what is going on? Would the lettering be better left clean without the spray and stuff around it, Does the image hold together stylistically? Any suggestions on the font lettering design? Are the bubbles acceptable or could they do with some work? And his neck looks weird to me...


And any well meaning critiques are welcome. Thanks for looking! PS: The above links take you to big files.

EDIT: The last image is just for scenery. I thought the forum resizing was working...? :(

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Post edited by head wax on
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Comments

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,585
    edited December 1969

    Honestly, I like the composition of the first one. I do agree that hiding the face also could look better. Could you turn the head so he's looking back over his shoulder and adjust the hair so that it appears to be blowing across the camera side of his face?

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    OK. Here goes.

    Of the two, I prefer the top image. I like the look in his eye, a twinkle that sort of says, "I'm havin' fun. What are you doing?" The look on his face and the eyes are just priceless. And for its purpose, remembering a friend, I'd say it's spot on.

    The second image seems more awkward, to me. That may only be because I saw the first image...well, first, so it may not be a fair comparison. Also, the shadow at the bottom of the second image doesn't seem quite right. It gives the feel of the figure floating above the water.

    You should be able to fix the neck strangeness in post with the warp brush/liquify tool (depending on your software). That's my go to tool for just about anything.

    You might also consider applying just a bit of gaussian blur to the entire image. A very tiny bit like 2 or 5. I feel like that would soften the image and blend it all together a bit more. It would also give the bubbles and such a softer, more natural look.

    I've never been great with fonts, but I like what you have. I also think the bubbles moving out of the frame is a nice touch.

    All in all, it comes down to the look in his eyes in the first image. You've captures something there. His smile makes me smile. I almost can't help it. If it were me, that's the one I'd want to see to remember a friend.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Honestly, I like the composition of the first one. I do agree that hiding the face also could look better. Could you turn the head so he's looking back over his shoulder and adjust the hair so that it appears to be blowing across the camera side of his face?

    Thanks very much Evil producer. Yes the first one has the advantage of getting where cameras don't normally go. It's a good idea of turning the face and the hair thankyou. I also thought of silhoetting and did a few - but it was too forlorn and foreboding - and it took all of the joy from the image.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Booksbydavid wrote:

    Of the two, I prefer the top image. I like the look in his eye, a twinkle that sort of says, “I’m havin’ fun. What are you doing?” The look on his face and the eyes are just priceless. And for its purpose, remembering a friend, I’d say it’s spot on.

    Thanks Booksbydavid! Yes he has a twinkle in his eye. Just like in real life.


    The second image seems more awkward, to me. That may only be because I saw the first image…well, first, so it may not be a fair comparison. Also, the shadow at the bottom of the second image doesn’t seem quite right. It gives the feel of the figure floating above the water.

    That's a good point thankyou. Yes the shadow is weird. I had trouble positioning the figure because the wave comes up transparent in the assembly room. So maybe he really is floating. I'll have a go at fixing that!


    You should be able to fix the neck strangeness in post with the warp brush/liquify tool (depending on your software). That’s my go to tool for just about anything.

    Ahh thanks for that hint. I nromally go clone tool, but I will certainly give that a try!

    You might also consider applying just a bit of gaussian blur to the entire image. A very tiny bit like 2 or 5. I feel like that would soften the image and blend it all together a bit more. It would also give the bubbles and such a softer, more natural look.

    I will have a go at that thankyou.! :)

    I’ve never been great with fonts, but I like what you have. I also think the bubbles moving out of the frame is a nice touch.

    All in all, it comes down to the look in his eyes in the first image. You’ve captures something there. His smile makes me smile. I almost can’t help it. If it were me, that’s the one I’d want to see to remember a friend.

    Thanks Booksbydavid. I really appreciate the input! I'llpost something when I get a bit more render time.


    cheers from 'ere :)

  • MisticwolfMisticwolf Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'm impressed with it as it is. But if anything, I think maybe the nose could use a small bit of work if you trying for a perfect likeness.

    Shawn.

    God bless.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,585
    edited December 1969

    Head Wax, if the transparency in the Assembly room is causing issues, you can turn it off in the interactive renderer. It's the little Up arrow with a circle around it at the top of the window. Changes made there do not interfere with the render room settings.

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  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited June 2012

    "Awesome!" (my first impression of your first version)

    The second looks like he's in Jaws' jaws! =O

    He looks like a great guy & friend.....I can imagine he will be sorely missed by many.
    I'm sure he's impressed with your work, too.

    I'm a body boarder, so the scene is really exciting and makes me want to go out.
    Get some good ones for him (and me), mate.

    ;-)

    (edited for clarification)

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Trying to be more critical (in the constructive sense).....

    His hair is dry.....should be wet (doubt even he could get into that tube without getting wet).

    And would take off the specular on his fingers.......looks plastic....did you apply some SSS?

    Jeez, I wish I'd known him!

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    I'm impressed with it as it is. But if anything, I think maybe the nose could use a small bit of work if you trying for a perfect likeness.

    Shawn.

    God bless.

    thanks Shawn :)
    You know, I am so impresssed byhow observant you are. When I was pulling the mesh around I forgot all about the nose! Thanks for pointing that out!

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited June 2012

    Head Wax, if the transparency in the Assembly room is causing issues, you can turn it off in the interactive renderer. It’s the little Up arrow with a circle around it at the top of the window. Changes made there do not interfere with the render room settings.

    Thanks for the heads up on that!

    . I'd forgotten about that setting. I'd been dropping the alpha in the shader room then goingback to assembly and fiddling. That will make life a lot easier ... if only my comp didn't keep crashing. I rendered for five hours yesterday then we had athunderstorm so the image was a third finished - I had caustics and ambient occluison running and the image was 12 inches by 9 at 300 dpi- so I hit abort hoping to save half the BMP ...and (^*&%$#@^$ Carrara crashed. Of course I'd forgotten to save the car file before I started rendering derrrr :(

    Otherwise I might have found that half a BMP in the temp folder?

    :)

    Post edited by head wax on
  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    megacal said:
    Trying to be more critical (in the constructive sense).....

    His hair is dry.....should be wet (doubt even he could get into that tube without getting wet).

    And would take off the specular on his fingers.......looks plastic....did you apply some SSS?

    Jeez, I wish I'd known him!

    Hey megacal. :) A surfer :) Ah yes, the shinyness on the fingers was my attempt at wetness - but the fingers do look like store mannequins! That worried me! And of course you are right about the hair :) Though of course I never get my hair wet till the third wave! Heh, oh I left Shannon's hair dry cause we only ever saw him with a cap on - with wet hair- or without the cap with dry hair! But you are right, I will have a play slicking it down a little!

    Shannon had a national bodyboard title here:

    Also in attendance was Shannon Berwick and John Cruikshank – I am sure John has an Australian title from the mid to late 90′s and Shannon also has a national title from back in 1986, 3rd place, some old skool right there. Shannon’s father started Newcastle City Area Bodyboard Club in 1998 which John help run until 5 yrs ago. It’s just great to have the older guys in the club to hand share idea’s with and hand down knowledge to the kids

    from http://solidbodyboarding.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/first-comp-photos/

    I'll post those updates when my comp stops crashing!


    Me... I ripped out my subscap tendon (right shoulder) before Chrissie. I had surgery in april and am out of the water for five months from that date. Of course the surf has been barreling every day since April... aaaaaaaaaaargh :)


    Thanks for your critique - very much appreciated.
    As I do everyones.


  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Shannon had a national bodyboard title here:

    Any links to videos or stills of Shannon we can see? Would love to see him on a wave.

    One last suggestion about that first version of him in the barrel........maybe lighten his face
    a bit.....think there should be more transmitted light....(?).

    E.g. this wave http://fizzyenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sun1.jpg ......maybe too
    bright, but it shows the sunlight well.

    I definitely like seeing his face from the front. ;-)

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Hya megacal

    Ah yes that's a beautiful image. I played with a bar light yesterday and that could give the same feeling of light through t he wave. I mapped some caustic textures to the lights to give that feeling of light coming through the wave as well - but it took too long to render. Adding textures to lights really bumps up the render time.. :( Today I pinched my wife's computer so we will see :) :)

    Shannon surfing? There one or two people working on a vid I think. There were quite a few pics of him around and about riding his kneeboard - but I havn't seen any of him from the eighties on his body board/

    One site that does have is a commercial photo site but you have to join up and login etc.

    But there are http://indianakneeriders.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/rip-shannon-berwick.html
    and http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PrhJErcuebc/T967C1nLJ-I/AAAAAAAAAGI/mY9VArz6klw/s1600/Shannon.jpg
    http://legless.tv/post/25565706683/dear-friends-it-is-with-sad-regret-to-inform
    shannon surfing small Teahpoo http://www.ksusa.org/Forum/album_showpage.php?pic_id=2272
    at the worlds Tahiti http://www.ksusa.org/Forum/album_showpage.php?pic_id=2156
    at the worlds Tahiti http://www.ksusa.org/Forum/album_showpage.php?pic_id=2136

    you may have tolog in on those last three I think
    regards from Oz, surgeon tells me another three months out of the water :(

  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the links Head Wax......I registered at KSUSA but haven't been "activated" by the admin yet, so can't login.
    But will check out all the links.

    I mapped some caustic textures to the lights
    .....I haven't tried caustics yet....what about adding more
    transparency to the wave and putting the light outside? Or using AnythingGlows?

    Seems like a lot of neat possibilties, but I'm sure most of Shannon's friends will like it as is and not be that
    critical.......it's the overall image that grabbed me. Nice modeling & shading of the wave, btw.

    Yeah, celebrate Shannon's life......I hope the pain of losing him will be replaced by a laugh and smile when
    you think of him, especially when you're shooting a clean tube, and whooping it up.

    Thumbsup!

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Hya Megacal

    Ahh I forgot the Caustics maps are generated by this progran http://www.dualheights.se/caustics/
    Very good. Great idea about the anything glows. I have been making the wave the anything glows and it gives really far out results - concentrated in the barrel. I discovered osmething today that I can stretch out the Cellular and Noise functions in the Transform section of their shader parameters and this might solve the problems I am having getting the ribs in the waves !

    Love to see what you could do with rendering a wave by the way.

  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Love to see what you could do with rendering a wave by the way.

    Sure.....I've never done it.....how did you model the wave? I've always been attracted to
    glass, crystals, fluids, etc in 3D, but haven't done a wave yet.

    I have ZBrush, and it may be the best app for a wave (for me anyway).....I just tried in
    Carrara, and it's just not a good modeler for me.

    re: rib problems?....sorry, don't see any (problems). I know I have a great wave when I
    see the stretch marks. =)

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited July 2012

    megacal said:
    Love to see what you could do with rendering a wave by the way.

    Sure.....I've never done it.....how did you model the wave? I've always been attracted to
    glass, crystals, fluids, etc in 3D, but haven't done a wave yet.

    I have ZBrush, and it may be the best app for a wave (for me anyway).....I just tried in
    Carrara, and it's just not a good modeler for me.

    re: rib problems?....sorry, don't see any (problems). I know I have a great wave when I
    see the stretch marks. =)

    Heh, yes me too, :)

    Oh the wave is easier if you start with a cylinder and delete the ends and some of the verticies, then use the soft select tool and pull it around a bit. The other way is in the spline modelling room. When I used anim8or I used extruded splines because I was trying to animate them and that meant I could have different cross sections (via making morph targets from extruded splines) and still have the same number of vertices.

    Except it doesn't seem to work so well in Carrara because when you translate the spline to a vertex model (The idea is still to make morph targets in the spline room that you can use on a vertex mesh) the vertex mesh ends up with different meshworks of polys (depending on the shape of the original spline) - that don't translate into morph targets very well. But I'm sure the advantage of a spline room wave is that you could taper the thickness of the wave at the lip - where is if you just add thickness yto a vertex model it is the same thickness added all over the wave (wall and lip) and that needs more work to clear up.

    That said you can animate a spline but I have not had much success yet.


    I hope that makes sense. Thanks for that Ron Romanovsky link. He is a legend that rocks!


    oh here's a kneeboard I made in Carrara a while ago :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV_FpfbePF4

    Here some extruded splines animated with anim8or in 2007. Pretty bad but you can see they have potential. All the waves are morph targets. Love those square rails on the board. It was the first thing I ever modelled.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUHIdY-6I0U

    Post edited by head wax on
  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Whoa! I like the wave animations.....not hi-res, but I really feel like I'm on the face as it
    builds and then tubes....very cool!

    Not sure about morph targets, but will look into it. I started with a cylinder in Carrara and sub-divided it
    a few times, but the polys are all triangles......seems like they'd be difficult to work with. (?)

    Would like to see your final image for Shannon....whichever pose you choose. Maybe someone
    would like to have it on a T-shirt to remember him by.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited July 2012

    Yes not high res I thinjk they were 480 pixles and not AA!! :)
    For the cylinder just hit the plus sign about ten times when you first drop it into the vertex room, then with all the polys selected choose MODEL>Smoothe edges
    and then over in the right hand box thingy where it says Model select the " Smooth" button in the subdivsion box and then choose 3 in the render slider (If I slide it to six Carrara crashes.

    ah yes I'd like a t shirt when it is done!

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  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for sharing your method with us! I searched the forums and even Googled, but
    couldn't find a tut on making a building/breaking wave.

    Modeling and rendering this kind of wave would be a great challenge.....it is for me!

    Think I can "make the drop" now. ;-)

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited July 2012

    megacal said:
    Thanks for sharing your method with us! I searched the forums and even Googled, but
    couldn't find a tut on making a building/breaking wave.

    Modeling and rendering this kind of wave would be a great challenge.....it is for me!

    Think I can "make the drop" now. ;-)

    pleasure :)

    I have a feeling you could animate a wave with a magnet but it's only a hunch
    I wonder if you could combine wind physics and other physics to get it to work
    maybe in about 2020 when the computers are up to it :)

    you could have a 'greenback' moving along suddenly strike a hidden cylinder half it's height ?

    I was experimenting with anythinggoos the other day for feathering the lip and it h as potential but I spent hours doing it and the results weren't wonderful

    it's probably just better to alpha texture it with painting in Carrara or other

    Post edited by head wax on
  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited July 2012

    maybe in about 2020 when the computers are up to it

    Not now in Carrara, but maybe now in Blender......have been messing around
    with fluid sims, and don't see why it couldn't be done. ;-)

    Don't want to be heretical, but Blender does incredible fluid sims now.....hope
    Carrara will some day soon.

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited December 1969

    ps- this is a good modeling excercise for me, especially to learn to do some modeling in Carrara.
    Don't know why I've resisted it so long.....may even get to like it.

    Forget B_____r........must have been having a boy look. :lol:

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Hah that's funny! Blender looks great actually.


    If only it didn't have any interface at all it would be easier to use.


    I've had three starts on it. Threeis enough because life is too short to learn blender.


    As a good exercise the wave is good. Have you done the Joan of Arc tutorial? It's really good for learning a modelling program.
    http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

    I did the joan of arc tutorial and the first thing I modelled with what I learnt was a kneeboard :)



    Carrara modelling for me just lacks a knife tool, where you can cut a mesh and where the cut goes through a poly you get and edge joining the edges you cut. It makes box modelling super easy. You just start off with a box and make the cuts where you need more polys and edges.
    It means you don;'t have to plane your work so well in advance.

  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited July 2012

    I’ve had three starts on it. Threeis enough because life is too short to learn blender.

    Exactly what I said! And swore I'd never try it again as I'd banged my head on it several times
    in the last few years.

    But started with it again last October, and am getting along with it as they gave it a facelift, and am
    limiting my focus to lighting, rendering, animation (fluids). http://www.youtube.com/user/ccmcgaugh
    And a site I set up to help others with it http://blenderportal.com/

    Using your screenshot I've started modeling the wave in Carrara......hope to have something to show
    by next week.

    Thanks for the link to the Joan of Arc tutorial......will check it out! :)

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited July 2012

    Gah sorry Cal I didn't see this reply :( Daz has decided to unsubscribe me from the thread ?
    Hmm,.


    Great you are modelling the wave! Yahhooo :) Heh :)
    I had a play the other day and painted the mesh with blacksmith 3d paint rather than use procedurals.

    To model the mesh try this. In vertex room drop in a cylinder hit the plus key till it has enough verticie to look round.
    Delete the ends.
    Turn the mesh so it is horizontal.
    Look at it left and right and cut of the verticies at the bottom so you leave the bottom apex but still have enough for the lip etc,
    Look at it from the front . Select the middle polys all the way round and use soft select and the scale toool to squah it in the middle.
    Go to bottom biew and select the very bottom line of edge using the between selection thingy.
    Then extrude these edges a few times to make the ocean.
    Shape the lip by moving the verticies around.
    Then add thickness.
    Sorry that sounds all garbled without images!!


    If you have a go at painting a texture map it this is what I found.
    You need a reflection map because thw white water should have no reflection where as the green stuff will want a lot.
    Also a transmap is handy to feather the lip but you don't want the white water to be transparent but you want the green wall etc to be transparent.
    Also a bump map cause the bump in the what water is different to the green stuff.
    I ran into trouble because I couldn't get transparency and alpha to work together because as soon as I turn on transparancy my alpha map in the alpha channel shows black splotches - weird.
    There might be a small argument for a slight glow on the white water - to get that luminance.

    All in all painting the green water (wall etc) gave really good results but I havn't been able to get good white water yet.

    I'll post in a few days. I had good news the other day and may have an agent so I am getting other stuff ready.
    Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.!!

    Post edited by head wax on
  • MisticwolfMisticwolf Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:
    I'm impressed with it as it is. But if anything, I think maybe the nose could use a small bit of work if you trying for a perfect likeness.

    Shawn.

    God bless.

    thanks Shawn :)
    You know, I am so impresssed byhow observant you are. When I was pulling the mesh around I forgot all about the nose! Thanks for pointing that out!




    No problem. Just trying to help.

  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited July 2012

    Hey Andrew,

    thanks for the mini-tut on modeling a wave! I'll try it out asap. =)

    I've been working on animating it, or at least the incoming swell.

    Saw a great animation demo of Dynamic Cloth by PhilW.....

    It reminded me of how the water surface looks when a wave comes in,
    i.e. the surface rises up, but things on it, e.g. me, basically stay in place
    (unless we pick it up).


    I also have Phil's excellent tutorial set, Learning Carrara 8, and found
    at least 2 tuts that helped me get started.


    First, I created a plain, copy pasted to duplicate it, raised the 2nd up a bit (it will be the water surface/cloth),
    added a cylinder in between......placed so the soft body would drape over it.....at the same time the cylinder
    is moving between the plains.....the "cloth" seems to flow over it, though it's just moving up as the cylinder
    moves under it......just like a wave. =)


    Then selected the top plain >Modifiers>Physics>Soft Body
    .This is the latest try......everything set to 100% except Pressure = 0.


    This may have been done before, but didn't see one.....hope others will try to improve on it.
    It's not very smooth yet, but will keep trying. =)

    I think I can get it to break by changing the shape of the cylinder towards the end.

    For Shannon! =)


    (edited to code links properly)

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited July 2012

    I think I can get it to break by changing the shape of the cylinder towards the end.

    Or ....have an invisible cylinder for it to break against. =)

    ps- started a new thread just for Soft Body Waves

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 1,883
    edited December 1969

    An interesting video about the waves made for "Surf's Up" and Siggraph.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Wx8b5NLNE


    Kendall

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