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General: what forum we need, too?
Posted: 27 June 2012 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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head wax - 26 June 2012 08:25 PM

A proper critique starts off on a positive note and ends on a positive note.

And that’s fine if those are your rules. Mine are, in fact, even stricter, and I don’t limit my rules
to only those who are providing critiques, I expect and require it of everyone in every interaction
I have with people, both in person and online.


I not only want them to start out by saying how wonderful I am, how handsome I am, and what an honor it
is for them to have the opportunity to interact with me. At the end I also expect them to thank me, to
tell me how wonderful it was to interact with me, and to re-affirm what a wonderful person I am. And since
I have feelings too, I won’t accept anything remotely negative. Everything has to be worded as a positive.
If my image sucks, they have to say “that’s the nicest image I’ve ever seen”, stuff like that.


If they don’t do this, and also intersperse our discussions with proclamations of how wonderful I am,
I refuse to accept whatever they’re saying. 


But for some strange reason, I can’t get anyone to abide by my rules. Heck, even the people here who preach
being nice are incredibly rude. 


Bottom line, you can require whatever you want from people. But if you won’t accept what people tell you
unless they do it by your rules, the only person who will suffer is you.


IMO, A very useful skill to learn is how to focus on what is helpful, and pass on that which isn’t, no matter how it’s delivered.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 04:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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And BTW, with all due respect to the nice lady who teaches the night school art class, there is no universally accepted rule that says you need to sandwich any “difficult” critique between two niceties. In fact, a lot of people would be more offended at being treated like a child with such prepackaged and insincere manipulations than by receiving the straight story. Sure, there are those out there who teach, and seem to think, that the whole world needs such ego stroking, but that doesn’t make it true. 


Giving and receiving critique is difficult, and requires a lot of skill and knowledge on both ends to make it useful. Real, useful critique has a purpose and clear goals, and takes a lot of work. But if people are more concerned about being offended than learning, there’s no amount of niceties that will make any difference. And in my experience, that’s usually the real reason why people don’t take criticism well.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 04:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Although I should mention that what some refer to as the “happy sandwich” certainly does provide some benefits for those who find it a bit patronizing….


While having beer after work, some find that developing variations on the “happy sandwich” makes for a lot of laughs. And usually they are along the lines of:


“Wow, I love what you’ve done with your hair. Oh, and by the way, your demo reel is dog turd. Did you lose weight?”

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Posted: 27 June 2012 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Okay, I’ve really gone the extra mile for you guys this time…


For the longest time I’ve wondered where the heck our new employees and interns, right out of school, were getting this “happy sandwich” technique training. Many of us old timers noticed it’s a fairly recent thing (relatively), but it seemed to be affecting a lot of students.


So I just did some research to find out where it all came from. I assumed that if it was being taught in the schools it must have been from peer-reviewed scientific studies by behavioral analysts, lots of scientific thought and testing put into it, and so on.


Well, it seems like this “sandwich your criticism between two slices of praise” technique came from….(you ain’t gonna believe this…) the lady who ran Mary Kay cosmetics. Yes, that’s right. A lady who runs a cosmetics firm.


Now, in no way would I belittle her accomplishments, but seriously, if a technique seems to work in her particular company with a sales staff of, presumably, mostly women, are we to believe that it’s a technique that should be applied across all creative industries and people?


Now, I might be wrong on this, but it sure seems like everyone references her management book when they discuss this technique.


Anyway, just some food for thought….....

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Posted: 27 June 2012 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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If you can’t cook or run a restaurant, you critique.


A sentence often repeated by restaurant owners and Chefs who are under the teeth of a journalist food critic.


Culinary art has even become an accepted way to describe the process for the creation of food.


All those cliches that describe what we like.  “A thing of beauty”;  “It captures form and function”; “The genre - blah blah”


Something that is “artful” takes many forms and can be many things.  One hundred lines of elegant programming flawlessly displayed and executed is a “thing of beauty.”


A sleek performance car that makes one’s senses become heightened to the point of fantasy when one hears the powerful engine.

or

Three pointed, spikey things jutting from the ground as metal sculpture appear gaudy to some, but a symbol of permanence to others.


I notice that some people who critique desperately want to become a teacher of sorts.  There is a need for them to fill their ‘inner ego’ with some sort of uninvited ‘mentor status.’  Nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that their status is artificial and sometimes the reality of interactive discussion may become the “fly in their soup.”


Most critiques on Daz forums fall under the category of technical assistance and not art.  Like, should I use ‘booleans’ to make this or what kind of lighting should I use.


Before I become too verbose and stray too far, I shall repeat one of my favorite jokes that keeps me humble because it expresses the common sense that on occasion brings us back to reality.


A food critic was wandering around a fresh vegetable and fruit market.  He came across some beautiful strawberries and wondered how the farmer behind the stand of beautifully displayed strawberries how he grew said strawberries.

The food critic asks,  “Do you use manure on your strawberries?”

The farmer with a puzzled look replied matter-of-factly, “No sir, I like to use cream on mine.”

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Posted: 27 June 2012 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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FRANK I have never refereed to anyones work as CRAP! Even though it clearly is! I was a newbie at one time and that would of hurt my feelings. I do add my critical advice though. but always give my support!

Also yes like another added join an CG community site and trust me they have no issue with calling you or anyone else CRAP! But keep in mond MANY of these folks work in MAYA, MAX, LW and others and will tease you for your using these primitive toy tolls like carrara! LOL!

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Posted: 27 June 2012 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Wow, lots of comments ...

RichardChaos - 27 June 2012 07:37 AM

FRANK I have never refereed to anyones work as CRAP! Even though it clearly is! I was a newbie at one time and that would of hurt my feelings.

I don’t suggest harsh critics on someones first post like “Hi there, this is my first picture I did. What do you think?”. But the regular forum visitors mostly know who’s longer around and can stand a bit more than throwing fluffy balls on him.


The “crap”-word isn’t mean’t literal, but as a metaphor for a negative critic when there’s nothing positive. And I’m with Joe’s argument, that there hasn’t to be always some sandwich tactics. That’s important for children to not discourage them, but someone posting as an grown-up out of his own will in a public forum shouldn’t expect to get praise if there isn’t something to praise. On the other side he shouldn’t expect rude or unfair personal attacks, too.

RichardChaos - 27 June 2012 07:37 AM

Also yes like another added join an CG community site and trust me they have no issue with calling you or anyone else CRAP! But keep in mond MANY of these folks work in MAYA, MAX, LW and others and will tease you for your using these primitive toy tolls like carrara! LOL!

Design Acrobat - 26 June 2012 06:26 PM

You can always join CG Society if you want to get critiqued on your work by professionals.

I wrote in the starting post, that I would like to see “some more professionalism” and explicitely excluded CG-Society, because the sometimes elitist attitude there wouldn’t help the most hobbyist here. What reasonable critic one could expect of someone seeing Carrara as a toy or having the strong belief that there isn’t anything valuable if it wasn’t modelled, textured, rigged from ground up.


I’m looking for something in-between like the aforementioned “I made this image for professional use”-thread. This kind of thread should happen more often.

holly wetcircuit - 27 June 2012 12:34 AM

Call it the BRUTALLY HONEST RIP ME TO SHREDS AND MAKE ME CRY thread

Maybe this idea isn’t bad at all, only a bit exaggerated. Why not find some marker or some declaration that indicates that criticism is wanted without all the leading and closing praise/compliments.

holly wetcircuit - 27 June 2012 12:34 AM

How about we have an informal rule that you have to try several of the suggestions and repost the results, or just do a better job and repost the results. Can be a Before/After and we see if there is any merit to this brutal honesty business…, or is it just egofapping?

Sounds like a good idea, too.

JoeMamma2000 - 26 June 2012 05:42 PM

While I agree with you, this is NOT the place to do it.

Where could be the place? (See my badly formulated thread-title.) Maybe we need another (sub-)forum? Carrara-Cafe maybe?

JoeMamma2000 - 26 June 2012 05:42 PM

And to give you an idea of how difficult your suggestion will be, just watch….I’m pretty sure that even the fairly objective analysis I just wrote will initiate some scathing personal attacks instead of, like you suggest, some objective rebuttals and discussion.

At the moment you’re proven wrong ...

 


I hope it stays so.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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A critique thread is a good idea. If we’re going to do it, we should seriously discuss and agree on some rules of conduct for the whole thing. When I was active in writer’s critique groups, that’s one of the first things you got to read, the rules of the game, so to speak. If you didn’t play by the rules, you didn’t get to play any more.
 
If were going to do this, we need to start a thread for discussion of rules and expectations, etc. Then we need to start the thing, making sure that our rules and expectations are posted clearly in the first post.
 
We also need to get the thread stickied or it will disappear into the depths of the Carrara forum never to be found again. That would hardly be useful.
 
So, who’s going to be in charge and when do we start?
 

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Posted: 27 June 2012 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Design Acrobat - 27 June 2012 07:06 AM


If you can’t cook or run a restaurant, you critique.....

 

I notice that some people who critique desperately want to become a teacher of sorts.  There is a need for them to fill their ‘inner ego’ with some sort of uninvited ‘mentor status.’  Nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that their status is artificial and sometimes the reality of interactive discussion may become the “fly in their soup.”

 

A food critic was wandering around a fresh vegetable and fruit market.  He came across some beautiful strawberries and wondered how the farmer behind the stand of beautifully displayed strawberries how he grew said strawberries.

The food critic asks,  “Do you use manure on your strawberries?”

The farmer with a puzzled look replied matter-of-factly, “No sir, I like to use cream on mine.”


And, as expected, every discussion here where someone doesn’t like what others are saying turns into a discussion and attack on personalities, instead a discussion of the issues.


You can criticize the criticizers if you want. You can look down your nose at those who judge others’ work, and question their motives and giggle about their “ego”.


But the fact remains. IF people are truly interested in learning a craft, whether it be cooking or 3D art or whatever, they don’t care where they get new information that helps improve their skills. They take whatever they can get, from wherever they can get it. And they don’t spend their time mocking others just because, in truth, it’s their way of getting back at anyone who dares to criticize.


We can argue all day long about every issue associated with critique, and how you should do it, and how moronic the critiquers really are, and any other side issue you want to focus on. But at the end of the day, if you truly want to learn and improve your craft, all that incidental stuff goes out the door, and people leave their egos and biases aside, and roll up their sleeves and spend their time learning, not making excuses for why they don’t.


But unfortunately, in this forum we always get bogged down in the ridiculous incidentals, because in truth most people just want to play, not learn.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Now, back to the main issue…


If there are some people here who are genuinely interested in starting a real critique thread, I can provide a compilation of rules used by some large studios.


However, keep in mind that this is serious business for most serious commercial enterprises, and the quality of their output is directly connected to their ability to have honest and effective critique. So the rules are comprehensive and require a lot on both sides. You may want to (actually, you WILL want to…. ) streamline them quite a bit for your purposes.


For example, questions like “here’s my image, what do you think?” are not allowed. The asker has to provide purpose and goals, such as “I’m trying to impart a feeling of mystery and intrigue with this image, do you think I accomplished it?”. The people on both ends have to do a lot of work to even start the process. Otherwise it becomes inefficient and useless. And the critiquer needs to cite facts and detailed rationale, rather than “I think you need more blue, cuz I like blue”.


Again, it’s a lot of work, there’s no room for egos or biases, and there’s no room whatsoever for discussing personalities. That might be real tough in this forum, so make sure you’re up for the challenge. 

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Posted: 27 June 2012 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 27 June 2012 03:43 PM
Design Acrobat - 27 June 2012 07:06 AM


If you can’t cook or run a restaurant, you critique.....

 

I notice that some people who critique desperately want to become a teacher of sorts.  There is a need for them to fill their ‘inner ego’ with some sort of uninvited ‘mentor status.’  Nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that their status is artificial and sometimes the reality of interactive discussion may become the “fly in their soup.”

 

A food critic was wandering around a fresh vegetable and fruit market.  He came across some beautiful strawberries and wondered how the farmer behind the stand of beautifully displayed strawberries how he grew said strawberries.

The food critic asks,  “Do you use manure on your strawberries?”

The farmer with a puzzled look replied matter-of-factly, “No sir, I like to use cream on mine.”


And, as expected, every discussion here where someone doesn’t like what others are saying turns into a discussion and attack on personalities, instead a discussion of the issues.


You can criticize the criticizers if you want. You can look down your nose at those who judge others’ work, and question their motives and giggle about their “ego”.


But the fact remains. IF people are truly interested in learning a craft, whether it be cooking or 3D art or whatever, they don’t care where they get new information that helps improve their skills. They take whatever they can get, from wherever they can get it. And they don’t spend their time mocking others just because, in truth, it’s their way of getting back at anyone who dares to criticize.


We can argue all day long about every issue associated with critique, and how you should do it, and how moronic the critiquers really are, and any other side issue you want to focus on. But at the end of the day, if you truly want to learn and improve your craft, all that incidental stuff goes out the door, and people leave their egos and biases aside, and roll up their sleeves and spend their time learning, not making excuses for why they don’t.


But unfortunately, in this forum we always get bogged down in the ridiculous incidentals, because in truth most people just want to play, not learn.

I was giving observations and examples not “attacking anyone.”

Perhaps you need to carefully examine the person standing in your shoes before you “pigeon-hole” someone.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 27 June 2012 04:01 PM

Now, back to the main issue…


If there are some people here who are genuinely interested in starting a real critique thread, I can provide a compilation of rules used by some large studios.


However, keep in mind that this is serious business for most serious commercial enterprises, and the quality of their output is directly connected to their ability to have honest and effective critique. So the rules are comprehensive and require a lot on both sides. You may want to (actually, you WILL want to…. ) streamline them quite a bit for your purposes.


For example, questions like “here’s my image, what do you think?” are not allowed. The asker has to provide purpose and goals, such as “I’m trying to impart a feeling of mystery and intrigue with this image, do you think I accomplished it?”. The people on both ends have to do a lot of work to even start the process. Otherwise it becomes inefficient and useless. And the critiquer needs to cite facts and detailed rationale, rather than “I think you need more blue, cuz I like blue”.


Again, it’s a lot of work, there’s no room for egos or biases, and there’s no room whatsoever for discussing personalities. That might be real tough in this forum, so make sure you’re up for the challenge.

One of the first questions we will have to ask is, do we really want ‘professional’ level critique? Are the folks wanting to become ‘professional’ or do they just want tips and suggestions/critique on how to make their own personal artwork better. Not everybody here is on the professional career track. I’m guessing most just want to be better at using and understanding Carrara’s capabilities and improving their art for their own sake.
 

If we pursue this, we will need to get a consensus on what sort of critique we as a group are wanting. I think once we have that consensus, then we can proceed to the next step which would be deciding rules of conduct and expectations from both parties. If we got the ‘professional’ route, then I think JoeMamma’s information would be invaluable.

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Posted: 27 June 2012 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I’m not talking about a “professional level” critique. I’m talking about the basic basics, which, of course, professionals must consider in their critiques.


For example, IF you are evaluating images that are intended to be shown to others, and impart a feeling, emotion, or story to the viewer, you cannot evaluate them without addressing certain basic basics that deal with how people perceive images. That’s where learning and the craft come into play. The craft is being able to generate images that affect viewers in a certain way.


However, if the purpose and goal for the images is “I was just playing around and made this image, what do you think?” then there is no evaluation or craft. It becomes solely “I like it” or “I don’t like it”, and nothing gets learned.


So I agree, if people only want a “what do you think” from others, which is basically what happens now in the render threads, then just make a “what do you think” thread.

 

 

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Posted: 27 June 2012 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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      I have to think that the level of folks in these forums run the gambit from professional or near professional all the way down to someone who has troubles with opening the program. That’s a pretty varied bunch to deal with .

      To have a critique thread to make everyone happy would be impossible—-so I would not be concerned with how it plays with everyone.  To those who want to participate..who want to get better ....who can act like an adult——-It could be very beneficial.

        And remember everyone benefits as there will be hints and suggestions that everyone might be able to use.

      I think the idea of some rules or parameters makes sense but we do not want to get to bogged down with too many legalities. It should be about the art and making it better.

Rich

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Favorite items   Cararra   - Modo -    Animation Master-    Houdini

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Posted: 27 June 2012 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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3dView - 27 June 2012 05:58 PM

      I have to think that the level of folks in these forums run the gambit from professional or near professional all the way down to someone who has troubles with opening the program. That’s a pretty varied bunch to deal with .

      To have a critique thread to make everyone happy would be impossible—-so I would not be concerned with how it plays with everyone.  To those who want to participate..who want to get better ....who can act like an adult——-It could be very beneficial.

        And remember everyone benefits as there will be hints and suggestions that everyone might be able to use.

      I think the idea of some rules or parameters makes sense but we do not want to get to bogged down with too many legalities. It should be about the art and making it better.

Rich

You’re probably right. I do tend to over think things.

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