Fixing Poke Through (Genesis)

thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
edited September 2013 in Carrara Discussion

I tried a scene with genesis and was reminded of why I dislike working with genesis: poke through.

With gen4 characters it is pretty simple to create a morph in the clothing to pull it out past the figure's mesh, but with genesis this does not seem possible. I really hope that I'm missing something.

First, trying to edit the conforming clothing in the assembly room gives a warning that it is "protected topology" and instructs you to go to the view (!) menu to unprotect it. Its a good thing it says where to find it because I wouldn't expect such an option under view. But in any case it isn't there. So, take a trip to the modeling room and uncheck View/Protect Topology.

Second, morph creation is still not possible. Nor is morph editing. Click the edit button and nothing happens (that is, you cannot select any mesh to alter it). Being forced to work in the modeling room is suboptimal anyway as you can't see the figure it is fit to which makes editing trickier, but I would use it if it worked.

Third, editing of the model (as opposed to creating/editing a morph) also does not work. I've gotten mesh selected and the only tools not ghosted are translation (scale and rotate are not available), but dragging for translation does nothing. Its possible that I didn't hold long enough as paint selection of faces only sampled once every few seconds, but I was certainly trying to account for that possibility.

Any pointers on how to fix poke through of genesis on genesis clothing? I would even consider post work, except that the poke through is so severe it isn't just a few pixels here and there, but large sections. I've attached an example to illustrate and, yes, that is a good section of the thigh poking through the pants.

Ah, I should point out that the distinct line is caused by setting the genesis leg texture alpha to zero, but as most of the problem is actually from the torso domain (I forgot that with genesis the torso is half the thigh) most of the issue remained. But this method only works if the skin is supposed to be hidden by the clothing. Consider a cloth that is supposed to be partially transparent or with holes. Partially transparent renders the workaround completely useless and holes make it unworkable if the poke through occurs at such.

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Comments

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    I really hope some one clear guide each step.

    because your quesiton is what I have tried, and I can not find way at all,so that just leave it off.
    then go buck blender to keep tweaking imported rigged figure from daz studio.

    I hope when make morph of clothings, (simply adjust shape by pulling vertices manually ,
    or another way which Carrara offer (ratice,, smooth manipulate?)

    with template genesis shape, at current shape, current poze.

    so that how can show genesis and clothing with current pozing
    in modeling room?

    about ds 4.6 as for me,, it is already easy work but just annoying, by export and import obj, then tweak them in modelor
    and fit to current shape etc,,,. .

    but I belive Carrara need not export and re-import etc to modify simple poke through.
    And Carrara seems not apply smooth modifier? I hope to learn about these new applied improvements for daz triax figures,
    and how it work,, not only auto-fit )

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    I don't use Genesis in Carrara, so I may be off base, but I've dealt with pokethrough and other such issues in 8.1 for the Gen4 and other characters.

    Have you tried magnets? You can attach a magnet to the clothing at the site of the pokethrough and pull the clothing out with good results. Although it is a pain, you can have multiple magnets attached to a figure if needed.

    I know this isn't a modeling solution, but it has worked for me.

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    I don't use Genesis in Carrara, so I may be off base, but I've dealt with pokethrough and other such issues in 8.1 for the Gen4 and other characters.

    Have you tried magnets? You can attach a magnet to the clothing at the site of the pokethrough and pull the clothing out with good results. Although it is a pain, you can have multiple magnets attached to a figure if needed.

    I know this isn't a modeling solution, but it has worked for me.

    Thanks for the suggestion of magnets. I will try that, but apparently you have much greater success with them than I. I haven't used them for fixing poke through before, but rather for simulating softbody (e.g., cushion that depresses when sat on) and have had mixed results with this (more than one magnet has resulted in crashes for me).

    One thing I'd like to correct is my misstatement above about shading domains. I haven't used genesis in a while and forgot that the thigh is not only not part of the leg domain (which makes no sense to me), but is not part of the torso, either. Instead it is in a different domain (hips, IIRC).

    I'll give the magnets a shot and report back. It is, IMO, not as good as being able to directly tweak the mesh but it has its points.

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    thoromyr said:
    I'll give the magnets a shot and report back. It is, IMO, not as good as being able to directly tweak the mesh but it has its points.

    Well, it'll take a few hours for the render to complete and with C8.5 and genesis you really don't know until rendered what it'll look like (apparent poke through in assembly room often disappears in render), but the magnet was an easy fix (albeit less precise than I'd like).

    Thanks for the reminder about magnets!

  • JonstarkJonstark Posts: 1,473
    edited December 1969

    A magnet in the right place looks like it would solve that pretty easily, IMO. Then again, I do use magnets to fix poke through quite often, because I never learned how to tweak the mesh directly to create new morphs in clothing. I really should learn how to do that, and I'm sure there must be some video tutorials somewhere that can show me.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 857
    edited December 1969

    One more vote for the smoothing/collision modifier to be added to Carrara 9!

    :)

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    Thanks to teach me Magnets tool, I must try it . I might have seen the way somewhere before ^^;
    but I have not used carrara,, just tried some start tutorialls which come with carrara 8 before,,,

    I think if Cararra can improt deformed obj as morph,,
    it can be one alternative to do more detail work,,
    even though I can not directly tweaking mesh with pozing genesis in Cararra,,,

    About DS, there is hexagon bridge,, or (z brush) to export Clothing with Current pozing actor as obj.
    and it can make morph from defromed obj . so that it is easy work once udnerstand the
    basic way of each modelor.

    (but I still belive there should be way ,,, because,, Carrara is modeling tool,,
    I remember,,, used Latice tool,, when I made bottle with tutorial ^^;
    I hope I can apply ratice to mesh keep skining bone,,, anyway study more,, turorialls,,)

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,943
    edited September 2013

    Jonstark said:
    A magnet in the right place looks like it would solve that pretty easily, IMO. Then again, I do use magnets to fix poke through quite often, because I never learned how to tweak the mesh directly to create new morphs in clothing. I really should learn how to do that, and I'm sure there must be some video tutorials somewhere that can show me.

    One day I really have to try magnets. I keep forgetting to try them.

    I may not have a video (yet) for this, but here's what I do:

    Clothing is made for the character ( Genesis clothing on Genesis figure):
    While the clothing is applied (fit to), select "Actor"
    Now click the wrench in the upper left corner to allow modeling in the assembly room.
    Select a polygon nearest the area that needs to be tweaked
    Turn on Soft Selection in the tools controls on the right panel
    It looks like 1.00 is the highest soft select - it's not. Turn it dow a little then back up, if you need soft select to select more polys.
    With a nice broad soft selection, ease the polygons in the appropriate direction

    NOTE: Selection manipulator can be set to adjust in varying directions in the 'selections' area toward the top of the tools panel on the right
    (I better make a video, huh)

    The thing about modeling new morphs is that they're best done on default shapes and a zero pose. This doesn't mean that you cannot do it otherwise, but when in edit mode, the object being edited will revert to default, and zero pose. So if your adjustments are minor details - it doesn't matter as long as you know where to select polygons, how soft to select, and how much you need to tweak. It the underlying figure blocks your view - and you otherwise know what you want to do, do it in the Model room instead - so all you see is the conformed figure - you'll sill have the preview window that you can adjust the view of.

    Pre-Genesis Clothing used on Genesis:
    If you've auto-fit some clothing to Genesis and you need to make adjustments, you can now do so as explained above. However, you can add all sorts of morphs easily before the auto-fit as well! I have found that it is much more difficult (possibly due to lack of practice so far) to add morphs to Genesis clothing that to Generation 4 clothing. So I add morphs before auto-fitting it. This is especially useful for motion style morphs. Again... I really have to try these magnets! Never have!

    EDIT:
    Any questions? I know I can talk funny sometimes. Don't be afraid to ask about specifics.

    Post edited by Dartanbeck on
  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 205
    edited December 1969

    No smoothing in Carrara 8.5?? What about the "Push" Modifier?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,943
    edited December 1969

    There is smoothing in Carrara. If there is a Push modifier, I've never used it.
    But thanks for reminding me.
    Some poke-through has been said to resolve itself during renders - due to smoothing.
    I'm wondering if lowering smoothing fixes it. Adversely, does making the model-level smoothing help?

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    Thanks to teach me Magnets tool, I must try it . I might have seen the way somewhere before

    Well, its not really a tutorial but here is what I do:

    1. From menu Animation > Create Deformer > Magnet

    This inserts a magnet into the scene. It is comprised of: Zone, Base, and Magnet with Magnet being a child of Base.

    2. Drag Zone onto Base, making it a child along with Magnet

    Puts it all together.

    3. Resize, rotate and translate

    With Base selected I move and scale it into position. In the case of the image I showed above I reduced size considerably, aligned it with the thigh and rotated so that Z pointed in the same direction as the surface normal for the poke through area. This is to ease the magnet adjustment.

    4. Tweak size, rotation, translation of Zone and Magnet

    I don't work with magnets often enough so I don't recall if there's any effect from changing the size of the Magnet, but the Zone is important. Basically the strength falls off to the edge of the zone. If the zone is too large you affect more than you want. For a poke through situation you probably want it slightly larger than the area to be manipulated and carefully adjust the Z size so that it has enough room to pull the mesh without affecting mesh that you don't want touched.

    5. Save your scene

    Maybe you'll have better luck with magnets than I do, but I find this to be an excellent point to save the scene.

    6. Select magnet and mesh

    Select the Zone and Magnet (but not Base, IIRC it will fail if you have Base selected), then select the object you want to manipulate. For content items this will often be a child of the root (e.g., the rigged clothing has a top level of say "Pants" with a subtree for the skeleton and a child that is the mesh).

    7. Attach magnet

    From the menu Animation > Attach Deformer

    8. Move magnet

    If you are going to do an animation go to the appropriate spot on the timeline and move the Magnet. You can translate and rotate to distort the mesh. For poke through just pull it up slightly. If you are doing an animation simulating soft body (e.g., character sitting down in an easy chair) then attach the magnet to the chair's mesh and animate it pushing down in sync with the character. Instant "soft body" deformation. This last is probably my most frequent use of magnets (in stills, but the idea is the same).

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    There is smoothing in Carrara. If there is a Push modifier, I've never used it.
    But thanks for reminding me.
    Some poke-through has been said to resolve itself during renders - due to smoothing.
    I'm wondering if lowering smoothing fixes it. Adversely, does making the model-level smoothing help?

    To my knowledge the poke through I've seen go away with rendering has nothing to do with subdivision smoothing (or did you mean something else).

    What I have seen looks like the modeling room display is just an approximation of the mesh. Yeah, that's the case with subdivision smoothing, but that just "rounds out" corners via interpolation. I don't have a screen cap to post of an example, but it would not be significantly affected by subdivision smoothing as I've seen Carrara apply it.

    As to "push" -- there are a lot of modifiers, but either I have no idea what I'm doing or they are not useful with poke through. A modifier applies to the whole object. You can use "punch" to distort the mesh in a way kinda like poke through fixing, but there isn't fine enough control.

    The attached image shows three identical spheres. The nearest has been subjected to "Punch" in the Z axis, the middle was pushed down by a magnet and the back sphere is unmodified.

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  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,943
    edited December 1969

    Thanks thoromyr,
    Can't wait to try this!

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    Jonstark said:
    A magnet in the right place looks like it would solve that pretty easily, IMO. Then again, I do use magnets to fix poke through quite often, because I never learned how to tweak the mesh directly to create new morphs in clothing. I really should learn how to do that, and I'm sure there must be some video tutorials somewhere that can show me.

    You are right that using magnets here is an easy fix. I'm just used to the precision I get with morphs. Instead of being limited to a smooth bulge effect I can do so much more. And a smooth bulge effect is pretty easy to do with morphs -- just use the soft selection and adjust appropriately. I do end up making heavy use of undo with that because pulling up and back down when editing with soft select does not get you back where you started...

    But you can trivially deal with issues that aren't restricted to oval shapes and by definition have fine control of the mesh. Just because it is a good skill to have, I highly recommend creating morphs for fun and... well, just for fun is enough :) My first attempts were pathetic, but I learned.

    OTOH, in addition to being quicker to setup, another advantage of using magnets is you don't have to concern yourself with morph areas -- those can be a pain.

    Magnets are *very* handy. And I don't recall who I learned it from in the old forums, but I owe the guy who demonstrated the fake soft body with magnets. Obvious in retrospect, easy to implement, and really enhances some scenes. Magnets are way cool, even if I don't use them that much :)

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    Thanks thoromyr,
    Can't wait to try this!

    :) I'm sure you'll find cool ways to use magnets. BTW, thank you for the environ kits. As it so happens the scene the clip came from is using the woodland set. Saved me the hassle of setting all that up and way easier on resources than one of Howie's and still looks good. (Not a knock against Howie, his stuff is amazing, but you really learn how slow your computer is when you save or render one of his scenes.)

  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 205
    edited December 1969

    If the character was dressed and posed in DS with smoothing, will there be any poke-through in Carrara 8.5?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,943
    edited December 1969

    If the character was dressed and posed in DS with smoothing, will there be any poke-through in Carrara 8.5?
    I would answer, but I don't know. Never brought anything into Carrara 8.5 from DS yet. According to the promos, it should work - just fine - no poke through.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    thoromyr said:
    thoromyr said:
    I'll give the magnets a shot and report back. It is, IMO, not as good as being able to directly tweak the mesh but it has its points.

    Well, it'll take a few hours for the render to complete and with C8.5 and genesis you really don't know until rendered what it'll look like (apparent poke through in assembly room often disappears in render), but the magnet was an easy fix (albeit less precise than I'd like).

    Thanks for the reminder about magnets!

    You're very welcome. :)

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    thank you,, I think,, you guys really like Carrara ^^;
    I decide not to complain about Carrara 8.5 ,,,because of yours,,,
    (but never stop to complain about DAZ^^;)

    I like your attitude,,, really.( I secretly call Datanbank as missionary of Carrara,,, ^^)

    then,, nakamuramu002 I think, it willt happen.
    I asked the way to remove poke through,
    about the scene which I have saved in ds with smooth modifier(not sub D smoothing means).

    because some products for triax figure actually need smooth modifier (not sub D smoothing means) .
    then must need to use them when render in ds.

    so that if it can not work,, may need some tweaking in Carrara.
    then OK,, I must learn magnets way more.

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    With respect to genesis and apparent poke through that isn't there I wanted to provide an example for those that might not have seen it. I've attached a snap from the assembly room showing what looks fairly bad. However, when rendered it simply isn't an issue as shown by the second snap. No magnets or mesh editing used to correct the matter.

    For what its worth, I've attached the (I think) final image. Nothing in particular in mind for this image, just having fun with genesis. The one on the left is Sadie with a little troll and I think a few other things, textured for the troll and posed for gorilla. On the the right is M5 Heroic with a good bit of Mavka and a smidgen of rhino. Thanks to the woodland environ kit, this was quick to setup and quick to render.

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  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 205
    edited December 1969

    I'm getting unacceptable poke through in C8.5 using Dawn. I fit the clothes and posed Dawn using DS4.6, saved the scene as a .duf, then imported it into C8.5. These results are awful, when you consider that a DS4.6 scene can be exported to Blender using mcjTeleblender, without ANY poke through. I'm returning C8.5.

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  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    I'm getting unacceptable poke through in C8.5 using Dawn. I fit the clothes and posed Dawn using DS4.6, saved the scene as a .duf, then imported it into C8.5. These results are awful, when you consider that a DS4.6 scene can be exported to Blender using mcjTeleblender, without ANY poke through. I'm returning C8.5.

    Return or keep is up to you, but why go through ds when dawn works fine directly in c8.5? I haven't used dawn much, but didn't see any poke through in what I have done.

    Not to mention judging Carrara based on its handling of someone else's figure seems a bit odd... If you have problems with dawn in Carrara you might want to reach out to the folks who made the figure and/or clothing....

  • BrianP21361BrianP21361 Posts: 208
    edited December 1969

    Nakamuram,

    You could try refitting the clothing in Carrara. In the general tab (I think. I'm not in front of a computer.) you'll see a pull down menu that says fit to. It probably says "Dawn" right now. Select none. Go back and select Dawn again. It should refit the clothing. That usually helps. I agree with the previous poster. Just build your characters in Carrara. Why do it twice.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 857
    edited December 1969

    If you are using the collision modifier ("apply smoothing modifier") in DS, you are transferring that as an OBJ to Blender using mjcTeleblender...with the active collision modifier changes "baked" into the OBJ (by turning on "Interactive updates"). It is no longer rigged in Blender, it is just an OBJ, as are all of the clothes.

    When you open a DUF in Carrara, it is all still rigged, but Carrara does not have an active collision modifier. (my vote for #1 feature in C9 :) )

    To compare apples to apples, you would export the OBJ from DS, saving the collision modifier results and import into Carrara....but again, then you lose the rigging, and obility to pose, as you would in Blender.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,950
    edited September 2013

    DAZ Studio has a function called "Collision and Smoothing" and this is not the same as Smoothing. DAZ Studio also has a function called a push modifier. Neither of these exist, yet, in Carrara. Further neither works in the DSON importer for Poser.

    Collision and Smoothing was designed to allow clothing to work with more extreme shapes, but it grew beyond that and, unfortunately, in some cases, was used as a substitute for good weight-mapping practices. This makes some Genesis clothing work better than others in Carrara.

    Since the original vision for use of Collision and Smoothing was for minor things on extreme shapes, it was decided that Carrara had sufficient tools for fixing minor poke through. (Magnets being one, Modeling on posed figures being another, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZvs716Ov8.)
    Given the difference between the vision for Collision and Smoothing and actual use, that decision is being revisited for Carrara's future. :) Note, I can not guarantee on what the eventual decision will be, or if it is even possible to make it work in Carrara, but it is on the list for discussion.

    Post edited by DAZ_Spooky on
  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 857
    edited December 1969

    Woohoo! That is very good to hear! (imo) Thanks for the feedback

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,950
    edited December 1969

    3doutlaw said:
    Woohoo! That is very good to hear! (imo) Thanks for the feedback
    Not yet it isn't. :) The discussion hasn't gotten that far. LOL.

  • nakamuram002nakamuram002 Posts: 205
    edited September 2013

    Nakamuram,

    You could try refitting the clothing in Carrara. In the general tab (I think. I'm not in front of a computer.) you'll see a pull down menu that says fit to. It probably says "Dawn" right now. Select none. Go back and select Dawn again. It should refit the clothing. That usually helps. I agree with the previous poster. Just build your characters in Carrara. Why do it twice.

    I think it is much easier to pose human characters in DS, especially when dealing with the fingers. Also, I thought that dressing and posing in DS might be a solution for C8.5 poke through (see earlier posts in this thread).

    If I want to deal with poke through (which I don't), I'll use Poser. I am returning C8.5 and will wait for C9, which may be a while as things move slowly in the Carrara world.

    Post edited by nakamuram002 on
  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,950
    edited December 1969


    I think it is much easier to pose human characters in DS, especially when dealing with the fingers. Also, I thought that dressing and posing in DS might be a solution for C8.5 poke through (see earlier posts in this thread). If I want to deal with poke through (which I don't), I'll use Poser. I am returning C8.5 and will wait for C9.
    I will point out that the people over at that other store did state that figure does not work in Carrara 8.5 correctly and they will be producing an update.

  • thoromyrthoromyr Posts: 391
    edited December 1969

    Nakamuram,

    You could try refitting the clothing in Carrara. In the general tab (I think. I'm not in front of a computer.) you'll see a pull down menu that says fit to. It probably says "Dawn" right now. Select none. Go back and select Dawn again. It should refit the clothing. That usually helps. I agree with the previous poster. Just build your characters in Carrara. Why do it twice.

    I think it is much easier to pose human characters in DS, especially when dealing with the fingers. Also, I thought that dressing and posing in DS might be a solution for C8.5 poke through (see earlier posts in this thread).

    If I want to deal with poke through (which I don't), I'll use Poser. I am returning C8.5 and will wait for C9, which may be a while as things move slowly in the Carrara world.

    Hey, totally your call! But I started this thread about *fixing* poke through. Because it has always been a problem, but my normal methods (editing the mesh/creating morphs) don't work with genesis content.

    I don't use DS, nor do I use Poser. But given some of the products for them it appears they *also* suffer from poke through. It depends on the figure, the clothing and the pose. AFAICT the only way to 100% avoid poke through with clothing is to paint it onto the mesh. I would think that surface normals could be used to programmatically ensure that the clothing is always outside of the figure, but that would not appear to be an actual solution in use.

    So, for the foreseeable future, poke through is reasonably expected to be a problem in some situations.

    It is also interesting that apparently my suggestion of approaching the third party vendor was spot-on and that they have identified an issue and are working to update their products.

    But I am in no way trying to assert that you should be using Carrara. I detest both Poser and DS interfaces -- and there are users who prefer either of those to Carrara. Whether its the interface, the company behind the software, or something else, people have their own reasons for their own preferences. Stick with what you like.

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