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Carrara 8.5 Fast Mip Map DEGRADES all texture maps!
Posted: 04 September 2013 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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boojumbunn - 04 September 2013 03:32 PM

  Actually, the problem with the seams gets worse the farther away you get.  they actually get bigger! 

                                                                  boojum

It depends on object accuracy setting, the textures themselves, and where the changes to the different resolutions hit.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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  Cool Spooky, thanks.  I’ll have to play around with them.  What are the object accuracy settings to render the skin texture at full resolution at 15’ away?  If you can let me know that then I will work from there.  If object accuracy fixes the problem at 720p high def then that is the perfect solution so we don’t have to keep editting our textures.

                                                      Boojum the brown bunny

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Posted: 04 September 2013 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 04 September 2013 02:39 PM

.................. but I don’t think I’ve ever seen seems in 3Delight renders..

I have seen them in DS(3Delight).

At one time I use to use Carrara to create all my texture maps, and bake them out, for the models I give away, but found (sent images) that DS would render seams, but that depended on distance the object was from camera (they could appear/disappear with small movements of camera). I was not sure of the problem as the models/textures rendered correctly in carrara(7/8.1) and all other rendering applications I have. I did not want to install DS, so instead re-created the textures in another application which allowed me to place a margin (texture baked past UV map border). That resolved the issue. (Carrara, even with “Baker” plugin, does not give option for baking texture margins).

Personal opinion, I put it down to poor implementation.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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DAZ_Spooky - 04 September 2013 03:22 PM

I will point out that a long time complaint with the Texture Filter default, from a significant number of customers, is that Texture Filter blurs the texture and makes it not suitable for closeups. Fast Mip-Map was designed to give you the better resolution for closeups without sacrificing speed, and most of you also care about speed.

The problem with the seam lines showing up goes away, in most cases, by getting a little further and/or a little closer to the subject. (Usually only a nudge.) Carrara doesn’t have an equivalent to shading rate that you have in DS or Poser, and setting that at 1 in either DS or Poser gives you the same results you are seeing in Carrara with Poser/DS Content, and since the content with the issue was designed for those render engines….

DAZ_Spooky,

Thanks for commenting on this issue.

So far in my experience, and of course it is limited at this point,  particularly with the Genesis and Genesis 2 textures I have available, the seam lines do not go away easily and certainly not with just a nudge.  I have had far better results with many of the V4 textures (and I have no idea why – no surprise there) I have when applying them to a Genesis character.  Many of those textures do NOT have any seams at all regardless of the distance the model is from the camera.

As far as complaints from customers go those types of things are subsets, of subsets, etc.
I know that I never saw a poll on this subject and I know I was never asked.  In addition, IMHO, as more and more users become aware of this forced change, I believe more and more users will be upset over it.  There are already some members attesting to that in this thread.
I remember this type of “reasoning” was used when then launched New Coke – how did that work out?
For my part I was totally unaware of issues with the textures being blurred and not suitable for close-ups.  I have seen a great many close-up images posted on this forum (by PhilW and others) and did not see the blurring you speak of, nor did anyone complain of this issue along with the images they posted.

When these complaints were issued did the complainants say that they wanted a change to the default filtering method WITHOUT any way to choose another default method?

Did the complainants insist that they wanted Fast Mip Map without a way to easily pick and choose what object(s) it would be applied to?

Did the complainants want to have to spend hours and hours manually changing the Filtering on hundreds of shaders if they did NOT want Fast Mip Map?

I am not trying to argue for the sole use of one filtering method or another (or the merits and application thereof) but instead asking for an easy way for the end user to make the decision for themselves.  Ideally the filtering method could be picked on a scene by scene basis and there would be the ability to easily pick a filtering method for different objects in a scene, so that one might have Fast Mip Map for objects in the distance and a different filter for close-up objects or any combination the user might prefer.

For my part I think it is important for the user to be able to make the choice and not have one method or the other forced upon them and not be penalized by a huge time suck if they do not want to use one method or another.

It should be all about choice and flexibility.

 

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Posted: 04 September 2013 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I found the texture map details, and embarrassingly enough they are documented - once you know where to look.  Tweaking texture map settings will not be a problem at all.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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boojumbunn - 04 September 2013 03:45 PM

  Cool Spooky, thanks.  I’ll have to play around with them.  What are the object accuracy settings to render the skin texture at full resolution at 15’ away?  If you can let me know that then I will work from there.  If object accuracy fixes the problem at 720p high def then that is the perfect solution so we don’t have to keep editting our textures.

                                                      Boojum the brown bunny

The issue with the Object Accuracy setting, I have found that it has to be set to .5 pixels, is that it increases the render time dramatically.

If you look at the images in my first post here I mentioned that, in the case of the phone box, to get the same render results with Fast Mip Map that I get with Sampling (with the default Object Accuracy setting of 2 pixels) I have to set Object Accuracy to .5 pixels (for Fast Mip Map) and this more than tripled the render time.

I do not think I should have to experience increased render times to get the same result, with Fast Mip Map, that I can get by just using the Sampling filtering to begin with.

 

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Posted: 04 September 2013 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Fenric - 04 September 2013 03:59 PM

I found the texture map details, and embarrassingly enough they are documented - once you know where to look.  Tweaking texture map settings will not be a problem at all.

You are, once again, my hero Fenric.

I look forward to purchasing and using your solution.

You are the BEST!

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Posted: 04 September 2013 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Fenric - 04 September 2013 03:59 PM

I found the texture map details, and embarrassingly enough they are documented - once you know where to look.  Tweaking texture map settings will not be a problem at all.

Awesome!
Kakman and Brown Bunny,
I apologize. When I replied, I was completely skipping over the original complaint regarding the seems! Yikes!
In Spooky’s defense, the beta has had the Fast Mip Map as default for as long as I can remember beta testing. Just none of us caught the seems problem. Please try and be civil toward him.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Dartanbeck - 04 September 2013 04:43 PM
Fenric - 04 September 2013 03:59 PM

I found the texture map details, and embarrassingly enough they are documented - once you know where to look.  Tweaking texture map settings will not be a problem at all.

Awesome!
Kakman and Brown Bunny,
I apologize. When I replied, I was completely skipping over the original complaint regarding the seems! Yikes!
In Spooky’s defense, the beta has had the Fast Mip Map as default for as long as I can remember beta testing. Just none of us caught the seems problem. Please try and be civil toward him.

I thought I was being civil.

If my reply to DAZ_Spooky came across as other than that, it was not my intention.

I am just trying to plead my case here.

I do feel that the implementation of the Fast Mip Map Filtering default (with no choice) was not well thought out, logical or well-reasoned - so maybe I was being over zealous.

I know that DAZ_Spooky is one of the good guys here and I meant no offense nor was I trying to attack him.

So to you and DAZ_Spooky and anyone else that feels I was not civil in my response to DAZ_Spooky – I sincerely apologize.

 

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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I was asked earlier to weigh in on this, so here are my thoughts.  I think Fenric put it really well earlier that each of the filtering methods has its uses - for example, I just did a comparative test video with a detailed texture coming towards the camera. The Fast Mip Map version looked slightly blurrier at first, but showed much less flicker than the version with Sampled filtering, so I actually preferred the Fast Mip Map for animation.  For a still image, I would probably have chosen the Sampling method in this instance.  Closer to the camera, there is little or nothing to choose between the two.  So my feeling is that one is not “better” than the other, they each have their uses.

So what we really need is a simple method to block change the sampling method - which hopefully is what Fenric will be able to produce.  I would agree that I’m not 100% convinced that Fast Mip Map should be the default, but mainly because this is a major incompatibility with earlier versions of Carrara.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Okay, just doing a little more experimenting with the Fast Mip Map compared to Sampling.

As I understand it the “degradation” is supposed to “kick in” at a distance of some amount.

I made a quick scene just using the Old Beach Pavilion.  I placed the building just far enough away from the camera so that the entire building is visible.

The top image uses Sampling.  The bottom image uses Fast Mip Map.

I see much better detail in the top image, so I ask is this the way that Fast Mip Map is supposed to work?  If so it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Please click on the images to see them in full size.

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Test_OBP_Samp_OA_2.jpgTest_OBP_FMM_OA_2.jpg
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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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PhilW - 04 September 2013 05:28 PM

The Fast Mip Map version looked slightly blurrier at first, but showed much less flicker than the version with Sampled filtering, so I actually preferred the Fast Mip Map for animation.  For a still image, I would probably have chosen the Sampling method in this instance.  Closer to the camera, there is little or nothing to choose between the two.  So my feeling is that one is not “better” than the other, they each have their uses.

What about gaussian filtering?  After I read Fenric’s post I thought that maybe for those who want higher quality for closeup work and don’t mind a bit of a hit on render times maybe gaussian would be the best option?  I admit I also did a couple of closeup renders with very high render settings using Sampling, Mip Map, and Gaussian (and I turned off interpolation on each one too), but even flipping back and forth between each one I’m having trouble spotting any differences.  Still I would like to know which would be the best for fine detail, if anyone can confirm.  Oh and the render speeds weren’t much different for any of the choices, honestly.  Mip map was a little faster, but we’re only talking a few seconds really.

Also does anyone know if antialiasing in Carrara is done by oversampling?  I think that’s usually the default method, but I don’t want to assume.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Fenric - 04 September 2013 03:59 PM

I found the texture map details, and embarrassingly enough they are documented - once you know where to look.  Tweaking texture map settings will not be a problem at all.

I can’t wait and I’m first in line to purchase smile  Also eagerly awaiting to see your stuff come up in the PA sale.

And I’m dying to play with the new Skin Doctor, when it comes (hopefully very soon!).

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This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then… explode.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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kakman - 04 September 2013 04:10 PM

You are, once again, my hero Fenric.

I look forward to purchasing and using your solution.

You are the BEST!

I agree on all points!  smile

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This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then… explode.

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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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  Ok, I have done a bit more testing.  Here are two renders with a bunch of V5’s.  All are using the default load of the Gia Elite skin.  All are using default lighting for the scene.  The first has an object accuracy of 2.  The second picture has an object accuracy of .5.    Each V5 character is 10’ further from the camera than the one in front of it.  So the distances are 13’, 23’, 33’, 43’, and 53’.

    In the one with an object Accuracy of 2 the lines across the thighs are obvious for all characters.  In the picture with the object accuracy of .5 the V5 who is 13’ from the camera doesn’t have the line, but all the others do..  the line across the thigh becomes more evident the further back from the camera you get.

    The accuracy of 2 took 24 seconds to render.  The object accuracy of .5 took 44 seconds to render.

                                                            Boojum the brown bunny

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GenesisAcc2Sec24.pngGenesisAcc05Sec44.png
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