I made this image for professional use.

MisticwolfMisticwolf Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Opinions?

Dangerous_Temptation_Cover.jpg
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Comments

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited June 2012

    It's kinda difficult for anyone to give a meaningful response if you don't tell us the two most important aspects of any image: Purpose and Goals. What are you trying to convey to the viewer, what are you trying to make the viewer feel? Without that you'll get comments such as "I like it" or "it's awesome" or "I wish there was more blue in the picture cause I like blue".


    That being said, if you look at it solely as an image, I have the following general comments:


    Bring the image into Photoshop and look at the Levels. What you'll see is that the image has a lot of midrange brightness, and little or no lows and little or no highs. That is called a "low dynamic range" image. Generally people like to avoid low dynamic range images because they tend to convey little interest. It ends up being something of a bright, washed out image that has few shadows and comes across as rather flat and uninteresting.


    Second, based on the title, I'm assuming you want some sort of drama or tension in the image. Again, the low dynamic range is the opposite of drama and tension, it's bright and flat. So give some thought to how you'd modify the lighting to increase the drama you're looking for.


    Third, everything is well lit and in focus. Images like that are confusing for viewers, because our eyes tend to go to the bright spots of the image to find the points of interest. When everything is bright, our eyes wander all over and any impact is lost.


    Fourth, I'd suggest you re-think the fonts you're using. Fonts actually have styles that come and go in popularity, and some fonts look old and silly (like bell bottoms and platform shoes), and others look new and relevant. Fonts are a study in themselves. I'd suggest you look around for font styles that are in common use now and see if you can choose something a bit more relevant.


    Fifth, the lighting clearly shows signs of scene lights that either don't have 100% shadow casting, or Scene Ambient set above 0. As a result, the lighting looks very wrong. Take a look at the even, bright light near her crotch, and clearly that gives telltale signs that the image is very fake looking.


    Sixth, the background has no depth. It is equally lit, equally in focus, and with a constant haze that doesn't make sense. If there really was haze like that (which there probably wouldn't be on a bright sunny day), it would have depth, and areas that are further from the viewer would be more hidden by the haze than closer areas.


    Hope that helps. I'm sure it won't, but at least I tried.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • RichardChaosRichardChaos Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I see the typical Carrara Plastic look. No offense. Its not you so mcuh has the render engine of carrara in my opinion.

    What I have noticed is People like to make stuff that looks factory fresh and or perfect.

    I clicked on the image and cant see it bigger, but I would add SEAMS, and cloth wrinkles to the clothing VIA a Bump and do some destressing on the fabic.

    Also if you know how to UV map one cool thing you can do is and a real person face, with all the imperfection that are most Humans

    This of course would not pertain to myself of my photo as I am way too perfect, symmetrical and perfect.

    Did I mention I as modest as well!

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited June 2012

    Hya Misticwolf,

    Well I think the image has a lot going for it but at the moment I'm finding that all the elements are disparate.
    ie the woman the forest the writing and the lion face aren't related.

    I'd start by enlarging the lions head so it filled the horizontal space, then zoom in on the woman and place her on top of the lion (her head where the lion;s nose is. That will associate the woman with the lion in the viwer's mind - insinuating she is th edangerous temptation.

    I'd also flip the background left to right and that will make the river a lead in at the bottom left of the screen.

    The camera and the knife are relevant? Emotively the knife has more meaning so I would have a horizontal bare knife at the bottom of the image for the whole width of the book and overlay the authors name over it perhaps?

    For the title I'd lose the italics look and maybe go all capitals with the first letters D and T larger. And have a look at the font. The T is not really fitting in stylistically.

    Lastly I'd look at the colours. Your main colour is green of the forest, so I'd think about making the woman's top an dark greyed down red, then use a variation of that for the font. Theory being warm will come forward and that the complementaries (red and green will work with each other if you grey one down, and the larger the area of colour the less pure the saturation)

    Vignetting is always handy so you could drop a black layer on top of the image and erase the middle of the black to bring focus where you want. I'd start by ereasing the black over the woman's eyes and seeing what happens.


    Lastly as Joe mamama says maybe a little tonal 'pop'.

    For the woman;s pose her right shouder on our left looks a bit high - which is what I get if I pose from the coller and not the shoulder.
    If you zoom in on the woman you will find her round bits head shoulders breasts etc will fit in bettwr with the round bits of the lions head -ears eyes and general shape of the head.

    I'd make the author's name bigger than the "a caspian novel'

    Finally I'd think about focal point. It could be the woman's eyes. at the moment the woman and the lion are competing with each other followed by the knife and the camera and the then the text.

    hope this helps too


    just my opinions. each artist is the God of their own work and it's our job as God-artists to filter reactions and decide which is relevant and which is not - and whether to incoorporate them inthe work or leave them out.


    :)

    it's a good start and I think it has lots of potential.

    Post edited by head wax on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited June 2012

    head wax said:
    I'd start by enlarging the lions head so it filled the horizontal space, then zoom in on the woman and place her on top of the lion (her head where the lion;s nose is. I'd also flip the background left to right and that will make the river a lead in at the bottom left of the screen.

    For the title I'd lose the italics look and maybe go all capitals with the first letters D and T larger. And have a look at the font. The T is not really fitting in stylistically.

    Lastly I'd look at the colours. Your main colour is green of the forest, so I'd think about making the woman's top an dark greyed down red, then use a variation of that for the font. Theory being warm will come forward and that the complementaries (red and green will work with each other if you grey one down, and the larger the area of colour the less pure the saturation)

    Vignetting is always handy so you could drop a black layer on top of the image and erase the middle of the black.
    Lastly as Joe mamama says maybe a little tonal 'pop'.

    For the woman;s pose her right shouder on our left looks a bit high - which is what I get if I pose from the coller and not the shoulder.
    If you zoom in on the woman you will find her round bits head shoulders breasts etc will fit in bettwr with the round bits of the lions head -ears eyes and general shape of the head.

    I'd make the author's name bigger than the "a caspian novel'

    Finally I'd think about focal point. It could be the woman's eyes. at the moment the woman and the lion are competing with each other followed by the knife and the camera and the then the text.

    With all due respect, why?


    Seems like you're suggesting a lot of personal preference, but like I suggested, the goal of the image is, presumably, very clear: to sell books. So EVERYTHING associated with the image has a single goal. Vignetting and shoulder poses and the size of the tiger's head, without a clear reason toward that goal, are nothing more than preference. Without understanding the content of the book, and the market for the book (who are they trying to sell it to, who reads that kind of book, etc.), any suggestions could be just the opposite of what's really needed.

    I'm not trying to bug anyone, just trying to get people to understand about purpose and goals, and how vitally important it is for commercial work to really understand the market for your product, their likes and dislikes, their interests, etc. This stuff isn't just a matter of "I think it should move to the left a little", it all has a distinct purpose.

    Keep in mind that there are different aspects to an image. There are basic image qualities which I was addressing, and apply pretty much independent of purpose and goals. Then there are properties such as Composition and Content, which directly address purpose and goals. Without knowing Purpose and Goals, you really can't address Composition, Content, Style, etc.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited June 2012

    Hi Joe,


    aesthetics are/is personal taste,
    if you can't see the value in my c and c well that can't be helped.


    you might have noticed that I didn't do a c and c on your original comment
    because I understand it for what it is - one viewpoint

    personally I think they are both relevant

    it's nice to see you back on the forum

    (apologies: edited to remove unnecessary comments')

    Post edited by head wax on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited June 2012

    I am NOT saying you're comments aren't valid. They could be perfect comments, very applicable, and help to sell thousands of books. But unless you understand what they are trying to convey with the image, you don't know whether they are beneficial AT THIS POINT.


    For all we know it could be a romance novel about a girl and her pet, a baby Siberian Tiger named Fluffy, who go on a journey, and she's tempted by various lovers along the way. And maybe it's not about getting eaten by a tiger, in which case the tiger is actually a good guy. Would you still suggest the composition have a huge tiger face? Probably not, especially if it might scare away female readers. Get my point?


    And the stuff I posted about image qualities is not my personal opinion. If you study how people react to images, how people in the image business evaluate images (film, photography, commercial, etc.), those are standard parameters applied by professionals when evaluating images. And it's beneficial for anyone working with images to study how people perceive those images (as well as very interesting, at least IMO).

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Would you still suggest the composition have a huge tiger face?

    Yes, I'm afraid so.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:
    Would you still suggest the composition have a huge tiger face?

    Yes, I'm afraid so.

    And that's fine if that's what you decide.

    However, if it's, for example, a romance novel, and the women who might read it are looking for an image of a woman enslaved by passion at the feet of a muscular hunk with a torn shirt, and instead they see a big tiger and a tourist with a camera, you'll have to answer to the author when nobody buys the book.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Heh that's funny Joe how we are at this point - when the OP asked for 'opinions' - and that is all.

    I guess in reality I would be answering to, not the author, but the publisher via my agent as neither of them would want to be associated with myself anymore.
    Mind you, having made the decision to go with my 'idea', maybe they wouldn't want to be associated with themselves anymore.

    Anyway, I must bow out to your superior knowledge on this Joe.
    Thanks for the banter.
    I'm afraid I must do my tax.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:
    Would you still suggest the composition have a huge tiger face?

    Yes, I'm afraid so.

    And that's fine if that's what you decide.

    However...


    Joe, your first post was perfect. Honest, neutral, practical. In the spirit that you gave that first advice, Please Walk Away, you are undoing the good you have done.... The artist-to-be will take in all the information at the level they are ready to process. There is no *winning* here.

  • cal_7ed8fd714dcal_7ed8fd714d Posts: 147
    edited June 2012

    Hi Misticwolf,

    my 2 cents.....

    get rid of the girl and the trees, etc.......just show the tiger's face against
    an all black background......more mysterious, and would draw my
    attention vs trying to put it all out there on the cover.

    Also agree with Richard that it looks "plastic", i.e. the tiger needs work.....more color?
    Better hair?

    As is, I wouldn't be tempted to check it out at all (no offense).

    Keep at it. ;-)

    Post edited by cal_7ed8fd714d on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,585
    edited December 1969

    I see the typical Carrara Plastic look. No offense. Its not you so mcuh has the render engine of carrara in my opinion.

    What I have noticed is People like to make stuff that looks factory fresh and or perfect.

    I clicked on the image and cant see it bigger, but I would add SEAMS, and cloth wrinkles to the clothing VIA a Bump and do some destressing on the fabic.

    Also if you know how to UV map one cool thing you can do is and a real person face, with all the imperfection that are most Humans

    This of course would not pertain to myself of my photo as I am way too perfect, symmetrical and perfect.

    Did I mention I as modest as well!

    Hey Richard, strangely enough I agree with most of Joemama's first post in this thread, ;-) and I disagree with you regarding the "Carrara Plastic look," being the fault of the render engine. I have seen some very good looking renders with Carrara that don't look plastic. It looks to me as if the OP is still learning the lighting and shading system in Carrara, and a little more practice in those areas will lead to a much more dynamic look to the OPs images.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Opinions?


    My suggestions are going to be Carrara-oriented because this is a Carrara forum:
    #1 Put some hair on that kitty! He needs to look magical, so play with the direction and color of the lights in his scene (I assume you rendered him separately). In post (photoshop) try giving him a zoom blur that focuses on the eyes. I think that's the effect you wanted here.
    http://www.3d.wetcircuit.com/wp-content/plugins/page-flip-image-gallery/popup.php?book_id=1
    _
    #2 The forest needs to be re-rendered without ambient lighting. Everything is de-saturated ( is that fog to make it seem distant?) but it should be MORE saturated and darker. Your figures will be more important (brighter) on a dark background. Allow the bark of the trees to become black. We know what a fantasy forest "looks" like in our heads better than we can physically make one, so like any good monster movie keep most of it in the dark. Also try using a 4D cloud or Primivol fog to create better fog depth. Assume this is meant to be a wild forest, not a city park, so more chaos and more density of trees. Render some foreground trees too so your kitty and hero can be *in* the forest, not floating on top.
    _
    #3 That river needs work. It has a uniform color from side to side as if it's unrolled silk lying on the grass. It also seems to emit green light. If this is a commercial project you might just plunk down the money and get the Howie Farkes scene here in the store with the creek in it.... If this is a personal project I suggest maybe investing in a plugin or two like SHADEROPS so you can get fake fresnel, or maybe buy Holy Forests' water shader pack also here in the store. For water to show refractive caustics and absorption it needs to be a volume, like a cube that lies just below your terrain (a thin sheet of glass doesn't make convincing water). There may be online tutorials about making realistic river scenes, but this could be a big project unto itself just tweaking a water shader so consider spending a little money to save frustration.
    _
    #4 The girl's lighting does not match the rest of the scene and she is probably standing in the river -- I would move the river.... The jpg is too small for me to see her skin or hair texture, but the shirt and leather knife(?) leg-thing are too saturated and look 3D-fake. She is pretty but I am not really getting any sense of who she might be that would interest me or make her seem journey-worthy. Her hair and face seem Asian, the outfit is 1989 mall rat, and the knife(?) thing is vaguely Southwest American Indian.... The camera is 1960s being that large and that shape. From the story descriptions given by the boys above, she is going to have a lot of sex in this novel. Obviously she's a slut because she's showing her bellybutton (and Temptation is in the title which must mean sex...). I *personally* thought she might experience some sort of spirit-tiger emotional inner struggle mumbo jumbo and would be "tempted" possibly with a magic/supernatural metaphore and she's forced to grow and become more confidant in herself and her abilities, but instead now I realize she will be have lots of sex.

  • MisticwolfMisticwolf Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Yes, I need more practice with the lighting.

    And no worries, I am absorbing all advice given here.

    Unfortunately it went live as soon as the text formatting was complete. But the is the free preview. So I can update as needed for the cover of the final full book release.

    The target audience is Young Adult, and it is a paranormal adventure romance.

    Seventeen year-old Kaitlin Sinclair's world is turned upside down when she moves to Indonesia, and discovers the secrets that threaten the existence of the enchanting Cadmon and his people. She dives into a foreign culture, full of mystique and dangers everywhere she turns, where keeping her heart safe might prove as impossible as staying alive!

    Cadmon is a shape shifter, hence the tiger.

    Shawn.

    God bless.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Sex sex sex. You guys were right afterall. :coolgrin:

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,585
    edited December 1969

    Sex sex sex. You guys were right afterall. :coolgrin:

    Holly, why is it always sex with you? Yeesh! You're worse than a guy! :gulp:

  • MisticwolfMisticwolf Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    It is not full of sex, lol.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,585
    edited December 1969

    It is not full of sex, lol.

    That's a pity, certain nameless forum members would seem to enjoy a good bodice ripper! ;-)


    P.S. I hate the new emoticons! >:(

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    It is not full of sex, lol.

    That's a pity, certain nameless forum members would seem to enjoy a good bodice ripper! ;-)


    P.S. I hate the new emoticons! >:(

    Oh I think the new emoticons have a lot going for them. Perhaps they should use a little purple in them to bring out the yellow, and there's a strong argument for flipping the wink one so the line of the mouth provides a lead in for the viewer, I do like however how they are modelled on the letter 'o' which gives them a well balanced compositional skeleton... All in all I think that, if Daz does a little more work, they could be onto not a bad icon. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

    ;)

  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,394
    edited December 1969

    . . . . uhm shapeshifter sex!! :ahhh:

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    :shut: :-/ :gulp: >:( fleas... and muddy pawprints in the bed...

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited June 2012

    Please Walk Away, you are undoing the good you have done.... The artist-to-be will take in all the information at the level they are ready to process. There is no *winning* here.


    I dunno, maybe I have more faith in people than your post suggests. In my world, people really love this craft, and many love it as much as I do. And most of those people have a real thirst for knowledge, and really enjoy discussing the issues and ways to improve. For them, shutting up and "walking away" isn't an option. Nor do people play petty games in an attempt to "win". So with all due respect, if someone here gets offended when challenged, that's not my problem. My only concern is learning, teaching, and advancing the craft.

    I continue to believe, or at least hope, there are people out there who, instead of being offended by challenges and criticisms, genuinely love this stuff and enjoy learning and discussing it. I just hope they aren't drowned out by the others.


    With me, it always has been, and always will be, about issues, not personalities. And if people really want to learn and discuss issues like I do, I'll try to participate when I can. And if anyone tells me I'm full of BS with any of my points, and can provide a rational argument, I'll gladly listen and learn whenever I can.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • MegagenioMegagenio Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    Hi

    I think that the 3d desing and composition work fine the way they are, perhaps i would make the tiger much bigger, covering all the trees behind the woman (MORE MENACE) , and perhaps a little bit more transparent so that is fusionated with the forest.

    The only real problem i see is like someone said, the plastic look of the render, this is normal in carrara but not its fault, if you change the materials that come with the figures and the render setings you can get very realistic renders, that would be one way to solve the problem, but i recomend you this one. MORE and STRONGER post edit, this will be necesary even if you correct the materials and render setings or not.

    I recomend you this wonderfull software POSTWORKSHOP 2 http://www.postworkshop.net/. yOU apply the filter then take that to photoshop or other and mix it at your pleasure by using layers, levels of opacity and the modes of combining layers etc

    or if you dont want to buy more software then read this tutorials or find more in google by writing : FANTASY TUTORIALS PHOTOSHOP

    http://speckyboy.com/2009/09/02/50-imaginative-fantasy-art-tutorials-for-photoshop/

    i AGREE with almost everything that joemamma 2000 said, but depending on the level of post edit, that may not be so relevant because those filters and tutorials will change the final look a lot, you decide where to put most of the load, lighting - render or post edit or 50-50
    Bye.

    Post edited by Megagenio on
  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    head wax said:
    It is not full of sex, lol.

    That's a pity, certain nameless forum members would seem to enjoy a good bodice ripper! ;-)


    P.S. I hate the new emoticons! >:(

    Oh I think the new emoticons have a lot going for them. Perhaps they should use a little purple in them to bring out the yellow, and there's a strong argument for flipping the wink one so the line of the mouth provides a lead in for the viewer, I do like however how they are modelled on the letter 'o' which gives them a well balanced compositional skeleton... All in all I think that, if Daz does a little more work, they could be onto not a bad icon. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

    ;)

    :lol:

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for being kind BooksbyDavid! I was beginning to think people here had no sense of humour ;)

    PS I have taken the liberty of designing my own book cover to show off my skills ........
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h92tVieSEHc/T-kClnjAPyI/AAAAAAAAGPk/EArC4N3VP2A/s1600/Doc7.jpg

  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,394
    edited December 1969

    I wanna ride the pink pony %-P

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Ugh, put pink FUR on that pony!!! :ahhh:

    All these nekkid animals wearing no fur at all on all these sex books! :red:

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,422
    edited December 1969

    Guys, seriously, I'm sure you know it takes a lot of guts to put your work out there and ask for comments. So maybe we should treat misticwolf's thread with a bit more respect and take it kinda seriously. I don't think we want to give anyone the impression we're making fun of him/her or his/her work. I'm sure that wasn't the intent, but geez, let's keep in mind that stuff like "ooo, look what I did..." can be taken the wrong way pretty easily.


    To that end, if he/she is still interested, I'd make a few other recommendations in light of the info you posted:


    Seems pretty clear that the target audience is teenage (or younger) girls who like to read. Maybe in the 12-14 year old range or something like that. Not sure there would be many boys interested in a romance like that. So that makes the target very specific, which is nice.


    Next step if you're a publisher or anyone in the commercial field is to do a little market research. I think it's safe to say that the only people competent to judge the content, composition, style, etc. that would attract girls that age are, well, girls that age. I sure as hell wouldn't work off my own knowledge, and I'm sure that's the case for most of us.


    But that doesn't have to mean spending a lot of money. Really, all you want to know is what type of book cover would attract a girl that age to buy it. My first step would be a little internet searching. I'm sure there is some market research out there that might help. Favorite colors, traits like short attention span, affected by peer pressure, stuff like that. It all helps in deciding what might catch their eye.


    And then I'd stop by a local book store and browse the shelves that had similar types of books. See what those publishers who really could afford expensive market research learned. What colors they use, what's the content of the cover, what styles are used, how are the elements composed, what fonts are in vogue, etc.


    And while you're there you might even ask the clerk which of those books are popular, and pay special attention to those covers. And maybe ask a young girl who might be browsing.


    Once you have that information, then you can start designing your cover. And the total cost of that research is not much more than a trip to the mall, which you probably had to do anyway.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,877
    edited December 1969

    Guys, seriously, I’m sure you know it takes a lot of guts to put your work out there and ask for comments. So maybe we should treat misticwolf’s thread with a bit more respect and take it kinda seriously. I don’t think we want to give anyone the impression we’re making fun of him/her or his/her work. I’m sure that wasn’t the intent, but geez, let’s keep in mind that stuff like “ooo, look what I did…” can be taken the wrong way pretty easily.

    I hate to admit it Joemama but you are right.
    Apologies Mysticwolfe. No one was taking the mickey out of you. I think it was an attempt to diffuse the situation that was or could have developed.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    Sorry, Mysticwolf. When you get certain Carrara artists in a room together without adult supervision, things can go south in a hurry.

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