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DAZ3d’s new Genesis 2 female realism
Posted: 20 August 2013 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 20 August 2013 09:47 PM
snowpheonix - 20 August 2013 08:46 PM

The idea behind capitalism is that you pay other people to do work you don’t want to do yourself.  I want things simplified. I don’t want to waste time ‘tweaking’.

...or are unable to due to the lack of tools required to properly handle the task.

To fix the eyebrow situation I mentioned about would require a software tool that is much more precise than GIMP or PSP (without having to do it pixel by pixel).  It would require the ability to select just that part of the map, lift it into a separate layer so as to allow one to make the necessary colour change then merge the layer back on the original map.  Unfortunately to be that exacting would probably require a programme that would be prohibitively expensive for most of us here.

I found from my own personal experience that layering on top of the character skins like the product Hawaiian Tatua does

http://www.daz3d.com/hawaiian-tatau

causes errors in DAZ3d like the map disappears and the base underneath is all that remains…  While it does make for a pretty interesting effect once in a while, the more layers you tack into an image, the more likely you are to complicate the working of a simple program.  I actually think that is the problem with Poser and why I don’t use that program…

Here is an example of what I’m talking about…

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Posted: 20 August 2013 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Scott-Livingston - 20 August 2013 10:36 AM

snowphoenix: I like your blue-skinned character…very cool! smile

Thanks but I can’t take credit for it… I was demonstrating how I collect many different skins..  That one in particular was created by an artist known as reciecup. 

Reciecup is one of the best makers of African / black skinned characters I’ve seen.  Usually the artist includes extra alien skins in the packages.  All the skins are geared for V4, you’ll have to manually install them and convert them but they do work brilliantly in DAZ3d.

Thanks for noticing and hope you find one you like as they make several like it.. Mine was based on “Queen”.

You’ll find them if you google the name. I don’t post links outside DAZ out of respect for them.

Happy rendering… If you pick it up yourself.. shoot me a response some time… I’d love to see what you do with it!

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Posted: 20 August 2013 11:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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linvanchene - 20 August 2013 06:50 AM

I’ve been told in rumors that Daz3d decided not sell skins that are essentially pictures of real people stretch over skin…

omg !`**ç&/%/&)

I always wondered why there are not realistic skin textures in the DAZ store. I always thought it is because the PA are just not capable or willing to work with realistic skin merchant sources.

 

So this lack of realism was actually enforced by DAZ?

 

Really? You seriously believe that? Wow. Those have to be the most utterly ridiculous statements I’ve read on the forums in ages. Especially since there are no less than 9 (and most likely more) photo based textures for the Genesis 2 Female that have come out in the last two months. Not to mention the photo based textures that have come out for Genesis and Victoria 4 recently.

 

Xdye - 20 August 2013 05:34 PM

Said this if something we can rant is that still I don’t understand why daz don’t realease a good setup lights bundle,

From what I’ve seen, there are a lot of great light sets in the DAZ store.

Xdye - 20 August 2013 05:34 PM

cos most that are sold are crap,

So you’ve bought most of them and tried them out?

Xdye - 20 August 2013 05:34 PM

well is more than most has to be tweaked.

Of course they have to be tweaked. One skin shader may look great under one light set, another skin shader may look terrible under the same light set, so you’ll have to tweak the lights, or the skin shader, or both.

snowpheonix - 20 August 2013 08:46 PM

I want things simplified. I don’t want to waste time ‘tweaking’.  I want instant results

If you two are looking for a one click make-art button, you might want to try a different medium.

Coldrake

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Posted: 21 August 2013 01:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Coldrake - 20 August 2013 11:59 PM
linvanchene - 20 August 2013 06:50 AM

I’ve been told in rumors that Daz3d decided not sell skins that are essentially pictures of real people stretch over skin…

omg !`**ç&/%/&)

I always wondered why there are not realistic skin textures in the DAZ store. I always thought it is because the PA are just not capable or willing to work with realistic skin merchant sources.

 

So this lack of realism was actually enforced by DAZ?

 

Really? You seriously believe that? Wow. Those have to be the most utterly ridiculous statements I’ve read on the forums in ages. Especially since there are no less than 9 (and most likely more) photo based textures for the Genesis 2 Female that have come out in the last two months. Not to mention the photo based textures that have come out for Genesis and Victoria 4 recently.


If you two are looking for a one click make-art button, you might want to try a different medium.

Coldrake

Maybe you missed where the administrator posted:

Richard Haseltine - 20 August 2013 12:37 PM

It may depend on the meaning - I’m sure DAZ would refuse a texture set that simply painted photos onto a model, with no attempt to remove the highlights and shadows from the photographs or to clean up other artifacts or to create things like bump maps/subsurface/specular maps.. But as you say, textures that are derived from photos are very common.

Now why would I need to try a different medium when I already have a few products that meet my high standards? 

Just because you don’t share my standards is no reason to be rude.  Why the hostile reply?  If you don’t like my dreaming out loud, maybe you should just ignore me in the future.  We don’t have to agree either.

I love buying characters that I want and I’m happy with what I do but what I don’t need to do is waste a lot of time ‘tweaking’ pictures that should already look real once I hit render.  I really like a lot of the products DAZ3d is putting out right now and I’m looking forward to seeing some great looking characters in the future.

I’m simply looking to EXPAND my library of high quality textures..  Lead, follow or get out the way smile  I’ll tell you a little secret…

Reasonable people adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable people.

 

 

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Posted: 21 August 2013 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Your last statement, “Reasonable people adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable people.”, is kind of ironic.  The methods using the LIE or similar layering in a paint program would provide the greatest versatility if you would adapt and learn.  These are artist resources and as such require skill to get the best results from them.  It does appear you (and many of DAZ’s newest customer base) are seaking the mystic Make Art button.

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Posted: 21 August 2013 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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jestmart - 21 August 2013 07:46 AM

It does appear you (and many of DAZ’s newest customer base) are seaking the mystic Make Art button.

We all have one just in case you didn’t know… It’s labeled, “Render”.

These are the type of personal attacks the admin should be deleting. People who think that just because they’ve been in this ‘click’ for a long time now, think they can abuse people new to the forums.  It’s getting pretty old now.

 

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Posted: 21 August 2013 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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An idea: a while back a user started a petition for DAZ to produce a new David character for Genesis (though David 3 had its share of fans, no David 4 was ever made and most people probably weren’t expecting a David 5 either). The petition was put up at change.org and got a decent amount of attention from forum regulars at least, and helped to revive interest in the David line. I have no idea whether it was a factor in DAZ’s decision to make David 5 (he was released several months later), but I think it’s possible that it did have an impact.

Since your threads—and I’m not trying to assign blame here, just stating my impression—however legitimately grounded, have a tendency to devolve into arguments and attacks, you might consider making a petition instead. If you’re right that a lot of customers would like to see more photorealistic textures for Genesis 2, then the petition could attract a lot of support—and that is something I think the company would be very interested to see.

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Posted: 21 August 2013 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Scott-Livingston - 21 August 2013 09:00 AM

Since your threads—and I’m not trying to assign blame here, just stating my impression—however legitimately grounded, have a tendency to devolve into arguments and attacks, you might consider making a petition instead. If you’re right that a lot of customers would like to see more photorealistic textures for Genesis 2, then the petition could attract a lot of support—and that is something I think the company would be very interested to see.

An excellent suggestion but to be honest, its nothing I’m interested in pursuing myself.  I’m not very concerned with the attacks because people are always going to be resistant to change Scott… thats how the world works.  People get comfortable and cozy in a certain place and they don’t like it when people come along and stir things up and so the agents of change always meet with opposition.

Orville Wright once said,  “If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance.”

While I’m certain these people in some way, shape or form mean well, the fact is that looking around and talking to the people within this community makes the issues confronting 3D artist at DAZ3d very apparent and I’ll explain it to you…

The conflict view asserts that only one strain of ideas can assume the commanding heights, and so all the progress of groups lower or less experience depends on unseating others from power. Secular groups can hold this view, believing that religion must be vanquished from the earth, and so too with religious groups that believe secularism must be destroyed.  This same idea can extend into every area of our lives.

Some people believe that only one idea can prevail because they are raised with a conflict view of the world and they resist understanding that ideas don’t conflict, egos do.

The reality is that it is in the benefit of DAZ3d to make all ideas a reality because there are no such things as limits to growth, because there are no limits to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination and wonder.  It benefits them to capitalize on the V6 line and produce products for everybody over the course of time when you consider that V4 was the most successful product line in the history of DAZ3d and now I believe V6 is going to make them a fortune and I want to see them wildly successful.

Thanks for the polite suggestion.  Don’t get me wrong… I’m grateful for the olive branch but I really don’t need it.  Take care and happy rendering smile

 

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Posted: 21 August 2013 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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...I gave up on photorealism a while ago when I realised, one, I didn’t have the hardware and proper software to achieve it, and two I didn’t have the resources to afford the hardware and software needed to achieve it.

While I was able to design and build a more powerful system than I originally had, I am still working with “hobbyist” software as I cannot afford 3,000 - 4,000$ professional grade software and/or 1,000+ professional rendering engines.

Daz Studio, as good as it has become still is no where near what 3DS, Maya, or Cinema4D are capable of.  Yes the 3Delight render engine has seen marked improvement in performance and speed, however in the framework of the Studio Application it can only get “so close”. Granted, there is the option of using a third party unbiased engine such as LuxRender (through wither Luxus or Reality) or Octane which pretty much give pro grade quality renders. The catch with these however is, they require a great deal of setup and “tweaking” not of only materials but lighting as well to get the desired results.

As well as a lot of time “cooking”.

Basically to get the most out of high quality photoreal skin textures you need an application or render engine capable of such results.  You won’t find that inside Daz Studio, PoserPro, or even the Studio version of Vue.  Even then, you still need to work with shader settings (such as SSS) and light settings to get it just right. Simply loading a character, applying a skin map, and clicking render will not give one the desired results no matter how “realistic” the skin map is.

Personally, I’m not into waiting a day and a half for a render to complete. I am into illustration work, and character development and thus need a render process to complete in what I feel is a reasonable amount of time.  This is whey I stick with the built in 3Delight.  If I want photorealism, I’ll take out my old Ricoh SLR, load it with high speed transparency film, grab the tripod, and go out to do a photo shoot (yeah, still old school here).  I actually prefer doing more “non photo real” work with my 2D/3D tools as I used to paint and draw (which I no longer am able to do because of severe arthritis).  I like to blend different effects together to get a more “painterly” or “storybook” colour plate feel.  Oh, I agree, good shaders and textures are very improtant, but they don’t necessarily have to be “ultra photoreal” to do the job as that is not my goal. I’m also not against using postwork or tools like the LIE to achieve the results I want.

Take a look at Kurt Lundquist’s work sometime.  He starts with a basic rendered scene then paints the majority of the details in with a 2D app. His images are captivating and extremely well detailed. They are not “photoreal”, but his characters and scenes seem to be more “real” and believable than what I see from those using more photographic quality 3D CG tools.

...and he does it for fun.

Realism here isn’t just about the shaders either, it’s also how the figure morphs and poses. I find that G2F does morph and pose much better than any of it’s predecessors without the need of extra enhancements.  The Morph Bundle expansion includes a number of controls not offered with previous models that expands the character design palette beyond what even the original Base Genesis offered.  With only he Base figure, Morph Bundle, Zev0’s Growing Up morphs, Handspun Studio’s Head Morph Resource Kit and Mallen Lane’s V4 clone, I discovered I can create many different characters, from children and teens to young adults and mature (female) characters without a hefty investment in other character morphs and plugins.One of the improvements I really like is that she finally has more natural looking facial expressions (in the past, I often had to tone down facial expressions and use them very sparingly as often they would begin to look almost hideous if dialed in beyond a certain point).

That is also “realism” and the kind of realism I do want.

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Posted: 22 August 2013 12:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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snowpheonix - 21 August 2013 01:50 AM

Maybe you missed where the administrator posted:

No, I read it. Leaving highlights, shadows and artifacts from the photographs is poor workmanship and certainly not realistic. Without bump maps, shaders, etc it’s not going to look realistic either.

I have maps with blemishes, scars, tan lines etc and I love them. It has nothing to do with “high standards”, it has to do with what you need for a particular image. There are texture maps without blemishes, scars, and tan lines that are just as high quality as those with.

I wasn’t being hostile or rude, I was being realistic.

You can have the most realistic texture maps in the world, but if you’re not going to bother setting up your lights and shaders properly to work with those high quality texture maps, (and the rest of your scene) they aren’t going to look realistic, so what’s the point of using them?  If you really want the people in your renders to look realistic, you have to put in some effort.


Coldrake

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Posted: 22 August 2013 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Coldrake - 22 August 2013 12:18 AM

Really? You seriously believe that? Wow. Those have to be the most utterly ridiculous statements I’ve read on the forums in ages. Especially since there are no less than 9 (and most likely more) photo based textures for the Genesis 2 Female that have come out in the last two months. Not to mention the photo based textures that have come out for Genesis and Victoria 4 recently.


If you two are looking for a one click make-art button, you might want to try a different medium.

snowpheonix - 21 August 2013 01:50 AM

Maybe you missed where the administrator posted:

I have maps with blemishes, scars, tan lines etc and I love them. It has nothing to do with “high standards”, it has to do with what you need for a particular image. There are texture maps without blemishes, scars, and tan lines that are just as high quality as those with.

I wasn’t being hostile or rude, I was being realistic.

Oh the irony.  In art and writing, everything is subject to interpretation.  I’ve posted pictures that I’ve made all along and you telling a professional artist to “try a different medium” is rude.

Coldrake - 22 August 2013 12:18 AM

You can have the most realistic texture maps in the world, but if you’re not going to bother setting up your lights and shaders properly to work with those high quality texture maps, (and the rest of your scene) they aren’t going to look realistic, so what’s the point of using them?  If you really want the people in your renders to look realistic, you have to put in some effort.

Coldrake

So what makes you think that by asking for realistic skins that I don’t believe in setting up lights and shaders when I’ve already posted several pictures that clearly demonstrate I do set up the environment and that I can already make great realistic pictures in my opinion?

There is nothing wrong with me asking artist to work on the Victoria 6 product line to make sure there are a lot more variations of high quality skins.

I would ask that in the future, you keep your rude comments to yourself.

I stand by my original statements about the executive decisions made at DAZ3d because I have them from a very reliable source that I won’t mention out of respect. 

I don’t want skins ‘based’ on real model scans… I want to see DAZ3d digitally impress a scanned model in her entirety from head to toe so that things like the skin difference in coloration between the top of the arm and the bottom of the arm are applied, so they aren’t the same color.  Every person you meet has differences in skin colors in various parts of the body because everybody goes outdoors.. limbs and eyes are some of the biggest give away that somebody took a sample and tiled them that make the characters look fake and only a few people can make characters really amazing such as Danae.

Skin tells a story and I’m looking to add more high quality skins to my growing collection.

The problem really is that many of the people making skins for DAZ3d are not very good at it and that is why so many of you are getting your backs against the wall.

So far, I’ve heard a number of excuses from deadlines to cost prohibitive but this is the market… its why they talk about ‘starving artist’...  If the skin is good enough and real enough and beautiful enough, I wouldn’t have an issue paying a lot more money for the best work.

I know in time that some really brilliant skins are going to be coming out… Some of the artist here are brilliant and those are the people I hope get inspired.  At the very least, I bet that DAZ does a new elite set just to shut me up!  LOL

Take care and happy rendering.

 

 

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Posted: 22 August 2013 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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snowpheonix - 22 August 2013 01:06 AM

So what makes you think that by asking for realistic skins that I don’t believe in setting up lights and shaders when I’ve already posted several pictures that clearly demonstrate I do set up the environment and that I can already make great realistic pictures in my opinion?

Sorry, but if the artworks you’ve been posting are intended to show realism then you still need to work more towards your goal. Once again I point to the fact that you don’t really know what you’re after, and you’re certainly not willing to put in the extra effort to actually make them realistic.

This is a tired old argument, and I’ve already mentioned it in your previous threads on this EXACT same topic. No effort, no realism. Though, personally I find that both the Victoria 6 Bella skin and FW’s Sister’s skins are amazingly realistic with good lighting. They’re beautifully detailed, and if you can’t see it then there’s really no point in carrying on this conversation. You’re clearly not interested in anyone else’s view but your own.

PS: Baked highlights on a pure photo texture with no effort put in? Ewwww. You clearly have no idea what texture makers have to go through to get those ‘real’ images you seek.

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Posted: 22 August 2013 03:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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HeraldOfFire - 22 August 2013 01:26 AM
snowpheonix - 22 August 2013 01:06 AM

So what makes you think that by asking for realistic skins that I don’t believe in setting up lights and shaders when I’ve already posted several pictures that clearly demonstrate I do set up the environment and that I can already make great realistic pictures in my opinion?

Sorry, but if the artworks you’ve been posting are intended to show realism then you still need to work more towards your goal. Once again I point to the fact that you don’t really know what you’re after, and you’re certainly not willing to put in the extra effort to actually make them realistic.

This is a tired old argument…

PS: Baked highlights on a pure photo texture with no effort put in? Ewwww. You clearly have no idea what texture makers have to go through to get those ‘real’ images you seek.

Let’s see… insulting my art work and repeating your “tired old argument”.

I realize it all to well and that’s why I’m not even bothering to try and make my own.  As I stated, only a few people can do character skins that meet my high standards and I’m willing to pay extra for it.  Who ever said we have to agree?  I know what I want and I’ve clearly stated it.

If you don’t have something positive to contribute to the discussion… its better not said because clearly you aren’t one of the people that can make great skins or you would be doing it instead of insulting my pictures.

Stop looking for an argument and do something productive.  We don’t have to agree.

I will give you that I don’t post my best and most realistic pictures on these threads, why would I?... for the most part I’m just trying to be amusing and have a little fun but it seems too many of you are just flat out rude.

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Posted: 22 August 2013 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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This thread is degenerating and most posts are offending against the DAZ 3D forum TOS, specifically bullet point #2 in the General Code of Conduct

2.) Criticism should be directed towards the subject or topic at hand, rather than an individual.  Posts which make blanket, unreasoned criticisms - of other members, of DAZ 3D, of products or applications, or of merchants and their products - may be removed in a general effort to control forum negativity.

Unless it returns to topic we will have no option but to lock the thread.

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Posted: 22 August 2013 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 21 August 2013 01:21 PM

Basically to get the most out of high quality photoreal skin textures you need an application or render engine capable of such results.  You won’t find that inside Daz Studio, PoserPro, or even the Studio version of Vue.  Even then, you still need to work with shader settings (such as SSS) and light settings to get it just right. Simply loading a character, applying a skin map, and clicking render will not give one the desired results no matter how “realistic” the skin map is.

Personally, I’m not into waiting a day and a half for a render to complete. I am into illustration work, and character development and thus need a render process to complete in what I feel is a reasonable amount of time.  This is whey I stick with the built in 3Delight.  If I want photorealism, I’ll take out my old Ricoh SLR, load it with high speed transparency film, grab the tripod, and go out to do a photo shoot (yeah, still old school here).  I actually prefer doing more “non photo real” work with my 2D/3D tools as I used to paint and draw (which I no longer am able to do because of severe arthritis).  I like to blend different effects together to get a more “painterly” or “storybook” colour plate feel.  Oh, I agree, good shaders and textures are very improtant, but they don’t necessarily have to be “ultra photoreal” to do the job as that is not my goal. I’m also not against using postwork or tools like the LIE to achieve the results I want.

Take a look at Kurt Lundquist’s work sometime.  He starts with a basic rendered scene then paints the majority of the details in with a 2D app. His images are captivating and extremely well detailed. They are not “photoreal”, but his characters and scenes seem to be more “real” and believable than what I see from those using more photographic quality 3D CG tools.

...and he does it for fun.

Realism here isn’t just about the shaders either, it’s also how the figure morphs and poses. I find that G2F does morph and pose much better than any of it’s predecessors without the need of extra enhancements.  The Morph Bundle expansion includes a number of controls not offered with previous models that expands the character design palette beyond what even the original Base Genesis offered.  With only he Base figure, Morph Bundle, Zev0’s Growing Up morphs, Handspun Studio’s Head Morph Resource Kit and Mallen Lane’s V4 clone, I discovered I can create many different characters, from children and teens to young adults and mature (female) characters without a hefty investment in other character morphs and plugins.One of the improvements I really like is that she finally has more natural looking facial expressions (in the past, I often had to tone down facial expressions and use them very sparingly as often they would begin to look almost hideous if dialed in beyond a certain point).

That is also “realism” and the kind of realism I do want.

OK..  In this instance… with respect, I think the other guys are right because you can combine real time elements within the browser of DAZ3d with 3delight and make photo realistic.  It is a combination of all the elements being real in the first place…  You’ll notice that with StoneMason and a lot of other venders, they have perfected the art of using MATERIALS that are real.  Pull out there “Back Alley?” or Asian Streets (I think) and they are realistic.

The rule of thumb applies… Garbage in, Garbage out.

If one element of your picture doesn’t look right, change it till you find one that does.  smile

I still believe that having great skins makes all the difference.  Keep reaching and happy rendering.

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Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
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