First time using bryce....

jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Bryce Discussion

I'm trying to make a map based on a fictional region. I remembered I owned bryce, and figured using it to make the landscape then taking an overhead render would be the easiest way to do so.

So, my question is, is it possible to use an existing map as a base to detail in with bryce?

Comments

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    I'm trying to make a map based on a fictional region. I remembered I owned bryce, and figured using it to make the landscape then taking an overhead render would be the easiest way to do so.

    So, my question is, is it possible to use an existing map as a base to detail in with bryce?

    The short answer is yes. But it will probably be slightly more involved than you might think. You can import images into the terrain editor in which case they will converted to greyscale height maps, light areas being high points in the terrain and dark areas being low points. The same image can also be mapped onto the terrain to match the geometry if you so desire.

    If landscaping is what you are interested in, and you are happy to watch video's I have a series of tutorials on this topic.

    This series of tutorials is intended for the novice to intermediate skill level. Although due to the nature of Bryce it might be that even advanced users might find something in these tutorials they have not encountered before.

    The first four tutorials deal with lighting topics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT2iLM1Zalk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMccdw62HG0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acb_wwKrSiM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go8vjGW-9sM

    This tutorial revolves mostly around using the terrain lab. (might be most useful to you in this case)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzOoYDC8glY

    This lesion is followed by how to synthesise materials suitable for terrains.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KUWIFAhroU

    This series finishing off with a video about how to make the most of different content by saving it and components from it in appropriate libraries for that content.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy8toAkc4eg

  • reserv888reserv888 Posts: 687
    edited December 1969

    Maybe you wan't the Bryce look, but if you just want to create a good looking map, there is a great program called Campaign Cartographer 3 from Pro Fantasy.
    http://www.profantasy.com/

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 2,370
    edited December 1969

    You might be able to get something like this, but it would be a challenge to duplicate an existing map, though as David mention starting with a greyscale or black and white image of the coastal outline could get you started. But if your finished image is going to look like a map, then reserv's Cartographer option looks like a smart choice.

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  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well, the resulting render doesn't need to look like a map.

    The whole reason I want to use Bryce for this is that I am horrible at drawing things, I can only edit images, so I would basically just be overlaying the render on the existing map at like 50% opacity and removing some stuff so I just get the illusion of depth on the map.

  • HoroHoro Posts: 4,270
    edited December 1969

    @jabberwockxeno - If your map has isohypses, i.e. lines that show equal heights, you can draw the lines over the existing image, then delete the image and fill the parts between the lines with a grey shade - dark for low and bright for high. You'll have to blur it afterwards with a Gauss filter and preferably export at 16 bit greyscale. This can then be imported into the terrain editor.

    I once wrote a program for doing this. It is mostly obsolete now since it is restricted to 256x256 terrains (for Bryce and Terragen) and creates only 8-bit grey (24 bit colour). Nevertheless, the principle is valid and you can get a description (and the program) for free on my website (see sig). Go to Raytracing > Tools > Iso2Grey. Perhaps this helps.

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited August 2013

    Horo said:
    @jabberwockxeno - If your map has isohypses, i.e. lines that show equal heights, you can draw the lines over the existing image, then delete the image and fill the parts between the lines with a grey shade - dark for low and bright for high. You'll have to blur it afterwards with a Gauss filter and preferably export at 16 bit greyscale. This can then be imported into the terrain editor.

    I once wrote a program for doing this. It is mostly obsolete now since it is restricted to 256x256 terrains (for Bryce and Terragen) and creates only 8-bit grey (24 bit colour). Nevertheless, the principle is valid and you can get a description (and the program) for free on my website (see sig). Go to Raytracing > Tools > Iso2Grey. Perhaps this helps.

    I actually started to do that a while ago, albeit it wasn't for that intention.

    The issue is that the map in question is based around a game me and my friends are making in RPG maker, which is a 2d program. There's not really any true elevation in any of the areas in the game, it's all more or less optical illusions, so it's incredibly difficult to make even estimated elevation values for any exact point/

    I can say everything side X shape is about _m above sea level, but when you add in more and more layers of topographical contour lines, it get's harder and harder to accurately represent what is going on in the in game areas via the countour lines/on the map.

    Even though I'm not trying to make an exact, 1:1 replica of the game areas in bryce, it''s still hard to reconcile the completed game areas with the countour lines.

    Here's (the attachment) one of the parts of the map where I am having the most problems.

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    Post edited by jabberwockxeno on
  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    Horo said:
    @jabberwockxeno - If your map has isohypses, i.e. lines that show equal heights, you can draw the lines over the existing image, then delete the image and fill the parts between the lines with a grey shade - dark for low and bright for high. You'll have to blur it afterwards with a Gauss filter and preferably export at 16 bit greyscale. This can then be imported into the terrain editor.

    I once wrote a program for doing this. It is mostly obsolete now since it is restricted to 256x256 terrains (for Bryce and Terragen) and creates only 8-bit grey (24 bit colour). Nevertheless, the principle is valid and you can get a description (and the program) for free on my website (see sig). Go to Raytracing > Tools > Iso2Grey. Perhaps this helps.

    I actually started to do that a while ago, albeit it wasn't for that intention.

    The issue is that the map in question is based around a game me and my friends are making in RPG maker, which is a 2d program. There's not really any true elevation in any of the areas in the game, it's all more or less optical illusions, so it's incredibly difficult to make even estimated elevation values for any exact point/

    I can say everything side X shape is about _m above sea level, but when you add in more and more layers of topographical contour lines, it get's harder and harder to accurately represent what is going on in the in game areas via the countour lines/on the map.

    Even though I'm not trying to make an exact, 1:1 replica of the game areas in bryce, it''s still hard to reconcile the completed game areas with the countour lines.

    Here's (the attachment) one of the parts of the map where I am having the most problems.

    Hmn. This all sounds very involved. Maybe if you gave us an example of how you wanted your finished map to look (since there are so many way in which this kind of information could be conveyed) we might be in a better position to suggest how you might go about creating the effect you are looking for. For example, I like this style of map, but it would be hard to achieve this effect using Bryce alone.

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  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Horo said:
    @jabberwockxeno - If your map has isohypses, i.e. lines that show equal heights, you can draw the lines over the existing image, then delete the image and fill the parts between the lines with a grey shade - dark for low and bright for high. You'll have to blur it afterwards with a Gauss filter and preferably export at 16 bit greyscale. This can then be imported into the terrain editor.

    I once wrote a program for doing this. It is mostly obsolete now since it is restricted to 256x256 terrains (for Bryce and Terragen) and creates only 8-bit grey (24 bit colour). Nevertheless, the principle is valid and you can get a description (and the program) for free on my website (see sig). Go to Raytracing > Tools > Iso2Grey. Perhaps this helps.

    I actually started to do that a while ago, albeit it wasn't for that intention.

    The issue is that the map in question is based around a game me and my friends are making in RPG maker, which is a 2d program. There's not really any true elevation in any of the areas in the game, it's all more or less optical illusions, so it's incredibly difficult to make even estimated elevation values for any exact point/

    I can say everything side X shape is about _m above sea level, but when you add in more and more layers of topographical contour lines, it get's harder and harder to accurately represent what is going on in the in game areas via the countour lines/on the map.

    Even though I'm not trying to make an exact, 1:1 replica of the game areas in bryce, it''s still hard to reconcile the completed game areas with the countour lines.

    Here's (the attachment) one of the parts of the map where I am having the most problems.

    Hmn. This all sounds very involved. Maybe if you gave us an example of how you wanted your finished map to look (since there are so many way in which this kind of information could be conveyed) we might be in a better position to suggest how you might go about creating the effect you are looking for. For example, I like this style of map, but it would be hard to achieve this effect using Bryce alone.

    Well, to start with, general new user tips and tutorials would be nice. Brcye's UI is very different from what I'm used to, so I'm not picking it up even close to as quick as I expected.

    In regards to the style of the map, it really doesn't matter so long as it looks nice, but ideally I'd like something like the pokemon region map artwork: It's not super stylized, but it's not photorealstic either.

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

    If you google image search pokemon region map, you'll see what I mean.

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

    If you google image search pokemon region map, you'll see what I mean.

    Ah, I see, well... Probably then Bryce isn't the best tool for that task. It's a lot of work to create a hand drawn look using a renderer.

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited August 2013

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

    If you google image search pokemon region map, you'll see what I mean.

    Ah, I see, well... Probably then Bryce isn't the best tool for that task. It's a lot of work to create a hand drawn look using a renderer.

    As I said before, that'd just be my "ideal" look. I'm perfectly happy with the style that bryce put's out. The reason I'm asking here is because I figured it'd be easier to just get the terrain modeled and make a render, so I don't have to hand draw detail and lighting into the existing map, since I suck at that, and have some 3d experience.

    Post edited by jabberwockxeno on
  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

    If you google image search pokemon region map, you'll see what I mean.

    Ah, I see, well... Probably then Bryce isn't the best tool for that task. It's a lot of work to create a hand drawn look using a renderer.

    As I said before, that'd just be my "ideal" look. I'm perfectly happy with the style that bryce put's out. The reason I'm asking here is because I figured it'd be easier to just get the terrain modeled and make a render, so I don't have to hand draw detail and lighting into the existing map, since I suck at that, and have some 3d experience.

    Right, well, your difficultly is that while Bryce can handle the lighting for you, "just getting the terrain model" is not as easy as you might initially think. Unless you are going to use Bryce to create your terrain, and then model your game on the created terrain - which would be the easy way of going about solving this - then you are going to have to convert your game map into a height map. Which is, I reckon, quite a challenge. If you watched the geocrafting video I linked to you, you will have seen how this could be done in the terrain lab, but... it sort of requires you to painstakingly draw a heightmap. Which is fiddly. But I'm not really the best person to advise you on this, unless you want to procedurally generate your map, I do very little getting my hands dirty drawing things and usually try to exploit what is already there.

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited August 2013

    For a comprehensive range of tutorials, written and video, many suitable for beginners, http://www.bryce-tutorials.info/bryce-tutorials.html Since I don't know what a pokeman map is, I will leave that question for others to ponder.

    If you google image search pokemon region map, you'll see what I mean.

    Ah, I see, well... Probably then Bryce isn't the best tool for that task. It's a lot of work to create a hand drawn look using a renderer.

    As I said before, that'd just be my "ideal" look. I'm perfectly happy with the style that bryce put's out. The reason I'm asking here is because I figured it'd be easier to just get the terrain modeled and make a render, so I don't have to hand draw detail and lighting into the existing map, since I suck at that, and have some 3d experience.

    Right, well, your difficultly is that while Bryce can handle the lighting for you, "just getting the terrain model" is not as easy as you might initially think. Unless you are going to use Bryce to create your terrain, and then model your game on the created terrain - which would be the easy way of going about solving this - then you are going to have to convert your game map into a height map. Which is, I reckon, quite a challenge. If you watched the geocrafting video I linked to you, you will have seen how this could be done in the terrain lab, but... it sort of requires you to painstakingly draw a heightmap. Which is fiddly. But I'm not really the best person to advise you on this, unless you want to procedurally generate your map, I do very little getting my hands dirty drawing things and usually try to exploit what is already there.

    Well, my hope was that I could paint a basic heightmap based on the contour lines I drew, then use bryce to generate the fine detail. If I have to go and paint all that in myself, then i'm going to need somebody to give me heightmap painting tips.

    Regardless, I have a question: Is it possible to have varying materials on the X and Y axes? Like, have one area be a desert, one grassy, another section snowy? Everything seems to be height based for material varience. Is there a sort of material paint mode?

    Post edited by jabberwockxeno on
  • cris333cris333 Posts: 107
    edited August 2013

    Painting grayscale heightmaps can be a pain since you need lots of tests .You will have to see ,test, save your work often even for every tiny line added .Also a height map tiff image carries additional information , only in tiff you must work, never convert into jpg or bmp.
    Have you considered to use world machine 2 ? There is a free version (basic) fully-featured but with maximum terrain resolution up to 512x512 and non commercial.I'm not sure if the offer is still available, check their website http://www.world-machine.com/ on http://www.world-machine.com/download.php . Can run on 32bit XP too. If you decide to buy it , the standard edition (100 usd) is enough for an amateur/hobbist artist.

    world machine and terragen are both node-based applications but the WM is way more simple and easy to use and very fast worlds builder compared with the terragen rendering time (terragen can use terrain shaders or even create ambients).When you'll get experience in WM you can achieve great results very close to terragen terrains.Unfortunately there are NOT many tutorials for WM, you'll have to dig WM forums for hints/tips and to play a lot with this app.And it is also stable, the only rare crashes i know are from low RAM on the computer (2-3 gb ram) when working/building with a very high resolution, 2048 or higher.

    Another method to create terrains would be with vector displacement maps + a modelling/sculpting program and using stamps on a plane to be imprinted and save as height maps 16bit .tiff and then import height map into world machine (or directly into bryce) to make erosions if needed but it takes time and lots of tests in bryce . http://www.sharecg.com/v/67171/view/5/3D-Model/Klendathu-for-Bryce have mountain created with vector displacement maps (stamps).

    If you decide to use world machine post a reply here and i can send you this project in 512 with mountain layers to play with it.Don't worry the yellow fine erosion channels at the base of the mountains wont appear in Bryce.

    Also see the http://www.sharecg.com/v/70849/view/5/3D-Model/Craters-Construction-Kit a height maps pack mostly with craters but you'll find base terrains with low mountains.Already downloaded by someone to be used in Sim3 mods.

    Another method is, as Jamahoney suggested me, is to use DEM files but i'm not familiar with (i don't know) this kind of workflow type.

    Don't take my post as an advertisement , i'm not payed for this ,it's up to you what you decide to use.

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    Post edited by cris333 on
  • dwseldwsel Posts: 0
    edited August 2013

    I see that you have some lines - you can use them this way: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/16841/#248104
    As for materials - maybe this technique would be nice: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/16841/#249495

    For adding details on your map: http://www.shadedrelief.com/birds_eye/birdseye.pdf
    Map making resources: http://www.shadedrelief.com/
    (Yeah! author of that website uses Bryce in his work - there are also Bryce tutorials there)

    More map making resources: http://www.reliefshading.com/

    Post edited by dwsel on
  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited August 2013

    dwsel_ said:
    I see that you have some lines - you can use them this way: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/16841/#248104
    As for materials - maybe this technique would be nice: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/16841/#249495

    For adding details on your map: http://www.shadedrelief.com/birds_eye/birdseye.pdf
    Map making resources: http://www.shadedrelief.com/
    (Yeah! author of that website uses Bryce in his work - there are also Bryce tutorials there)

    More map making resources: http://www.reliefshading.com/

    So in order to have variances on the X and Y axes, I have to use masks?

    Also Is there a way for the resolution of the terrian/heightmap to equal the resolution of the input heightmap, instead of 512/1024 and so on?

    Lastly, is there a smudge or blend tool when painting the heightmap?

    EDIT:
    Actually...

    I notice bryce tends to crash when trying to export a mesh with over 100 thousand triangles. Is this from my computer, or the program? IE: if somebody with a better computer tried to export it for me, would they have less of a chance of crashing?

    If so, I may upload my bryce file somewhere so somebody could try exporting it at say, 500 thousand to 1 million triangles? Alternatively, is there a way for bryce to selectively lower the triangle count in areas that require less detail?

    Post edited by jabberwockxeno on
  • HoroHoro Posts: 4,270
    edited December 1969

    Also Is there a way for the resolution of the terrian/heightmap to equal the resolution of the input heightmap, instead of 512/1024 and so on?

    Lastly, is there a smudge or blend tool when painting the heightmap?


    Yes, there is that grid thingy, click on it. You can go as high as 4096 x 4096. Though you cannot set the resolution other than what's offered in the drop-down.

    The terrain editor has a great many of options, which you should experiment with. You can select parts of the terrain and change the selected part without changing the other parts. You have sharpening and smoothing filters.

    Though the preview is square, the terrain needn't be square. You can load a height map in any aspect ratio - though it will be displayed square - and set your terrain to the same aspect ratio and you're set.

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Horo said:
    and set your terrain to the same aspect ratio and you're set.

    And how do I do that?

    Also, i updated my post with some questions relating to exporting a mesh.

  • HoroHoro Posts: 4,270
    edited August 2013

    Create a terrain and click on the [A]. The terrain comes in with 81.92 x 20.48 x 81.92 BU (Bryce Units). Just alter the numbers as required.

    Exporting a mesh - with the terrain selected, go into the Terrain Editor by clicking on [E].. On top right of the terrain canvas is a down arrow. Click on it, then click on Export.

    I suggest you get the documentation (which unfortunately doesn't come with Bryce): Both are PDFs.

    This is the Bryce 7.1 Doc, still a WIP (also unfortunately), but what you look for is covered in it.

    I also recommend to get the Bryce 6.1 Doc, which is complete and nothing has been changed in the TE between the versions.

    Post edited by Horo on
  • HoroHoro Posts: 4,270
    edited August 2013

    There are video tutorials to watch. A List of Tutorials is available right at the top of the Bryce Forum. Have a look at it, it may prove helpful.
    .

    Post edited by Horo on
  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    Horo said:
    and set your terrain to the same aspect ratio and you're set.

    And how do I do that?

    Also, i updated my post with some questions relating to exporting a mesh.

    If you want to export terrains as mesh objects this is something I've documented for the purpose of getting things into Octane.

    The first set are rather long winded.

    Bryce to Octane - Island scene conversion - part 1 - by David Brinnen
    Bryce to Octane - Island scene conversion - part 2 - by David Brinnen
    Bryce to Octane - Island scene conversion - part 3 - by David Brinnen
    Bryce to Octane - Island scene conversion - part 4 - by David Brinnen
    Bryce to Octane - Island scene conversion - part 5 - by David Brinnen

    This last one cuts to the chase - dealing with the mesh export starts at 2.00

    Bryce to Octane - Another Islands (two) scene conversion - by David Brinnen

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for all the help.

    I think I'm set, for now.

    I'll mess around and see what I can get, and post back here with the results. ;-)

  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hmm...

    Seems I need a higher resolution mesh than bryce on my computer can handle.

    Can somebody try exporting this as an OBJ at around 10 million polys, that would be great http://www.mediafire.com/download/qkvfxvyqy2cjaq7/terrian_6.br7

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited August 2013

    Hmm...

    Seems I need a higher resolution mesh than bryce on my computer can handle.

    Can somebody try exporting this as an OBJ at around 10 million polys, that would be great http://www.mediafire.com/download/qkvfxvyqy2cjaq7/terrian_6.br7

    OK I know it is a bit tedious going through all the tutorials, so I'll just cut to the chase here.

    1 - to export at that level of polys drop the resolution to Massive - that will free off a bit of headroom for the conversion.

    2 - use the export option from the dropdown.

    3 - do remember to turn off all the Image Maps - don't export the images directly - that's a really bad idea. Instead follow the process outlined in the tutorials. Yes it is more long winded, but the results will be better. Maximum resolution looks to be about 2 million polys. That creates an output object of 215 MB! So 10 million... well that would be a pretty big object. And probably include a lot of redundant information.

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    Post edited by David Brinnen on
  • jabberwockxenojabberwockxeno Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hmm...

    Seems I need a higher resolution mesh than bryce on my computer can handle.

    Can somebody try exporting this as an OBJ at around 10 million polys, that would be great http://www.mediafire.com/download/qkvfxvyqy2cjaq7/terrian_6.br7

    OK I know it is a bit tedious going through all the tutorials, so I'll just cut to the chase here.

    1 - to export at that level of polys drop the resolution to Massive - that will free off a bit of headroom for the conversion.

    2 - use the export option from the dropdown.

    3 - do remember to turn off all the Image Maps - don't export the images directly - that's a really bad idea. Instead follow the process outlined in the tutorials. Yes it is more long winded, but the results will be better. Maximum resolution looks to be about 2 million polys. That creates an output object of 215 MB! So 10 million... well that would be a pretty big object. And probably include a lot of redundant information.

    That's odd, I was able to get it to 6 million without a crash, but it's still not enough detail for what I need. I'm sculpting it in mudbox after the export, and for the level of detail I want, I need more than 6 million

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 2,834
    edited December 1969

    Hmm...

    Seems I need a higher resolution mesh than bryce on my computer can handle.

    Can somebody try exporting this as an OBJ at around 10 million polys, that would be great http://www.mediafire.com/download/qkvfxvyqy2cjaq7/terrian_6.br7

    OK I know it is a bit tedious going through all the tutorials, so I'll just cut to the chase here.

    1 - to export at that level of polys drop the resolution to Massive - that will free off a bit of headroom for the conversion.

    2 - use the export option from the dropdown.

    3 - do remember to turn off all the Image Maps - don't export the images directly - that's a really bad idea. Instead follow the process outlined in the tutorials. Yes it is more long winded, but the results will be better. Maximum resolution looks to be about 2 million polys. That creates an output object of 215 MB! So 10 million... well that would be a pretty big object. And probably include a lot of redundant information.

    That's odd, I was able to get it to 6 million without a crash, but it's still not enough detail for what I need. I'm sculpting it in mudbox after the export, and for the level of detail I want, I need more than 6 million

    That is a lot of detail. What resolution will the final map be? Pixel x pixel resolution - for display purposes.

  • dwseldwsel Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I agree with David Brinnen - that's a huge amount of detail - I'm not sure if your heightmap does contain that much of them. There are rather delicate details. You're not sharing the purpose of the model but for fantasy cartography maybe it would be easier to render the map directly in Bryce? and postprocess it? For pure fun I've played with your map a little bit (two renders straight out of Bryce and postprocessed version)

    Also I've found nice site about this topic: http://www.cartographersguild.com/forum.php

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