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Carrara Manual
Posted: 21 July 2013 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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head wax - 21 July 2013 10:15 PM

Hi Steve K,

If it makes you feel any better, we’ve been hammering at daz’s door for a longtime for a manual. There would pretty vocal posters too, but they no longer post here. I think they realised it was a waste of time trying to get daz to honour daz’s consumer obligations.

That’s good to know, thanks.  As I mentioned, its been a sore point with me for a long time, made worse by my perception that the mods here in the forums seem to stifle any attempt at discussion.  That’s what I thought Spooky was doing, and then it all flamed up.  The manual became secondary to all the crap I got, something I’ve never taken quietly.

head wax - 21 July 2013 10:15 PM

Me, I’m just happy to have Carrara and when I can’t figure something out I ask here, and usually someone with good brains will help me, thank fully.

Actually I have two hard copies of the c7 manual, I printed it out last year, but accidentally printed 2, I was scractching my head wondering why it was taking so long, lucky I have a good laser printer…. so one of them I turned into 876 paper planes wink

 

B-}  I only have an inkjet printer, mostly for an occasional photo.  The ink costs a fortune, so I don’t print manuals.  The C8 Pro PDF version, which can be called up in the program, works fine for me.  Except its for an older version - did I mention that?  B-}

I’m also happy to have discovered Carrara, having used Bryce, Poser and even Lightwave.  My epiphany occurred when I learned that Carrara can load Poser content directly from its browser, with all the dials, no “import’ required.  That was a brilliant move on somebody’s part, DAZ or Eovia or whoever.  Carrara is vastly superior to Poser for large scenes and animations, IMHO, but Poser style content (e.g. Gen4 characters) is much more prevalent, and is affordable.  So the combination is as good as I can imagine (I am not a modeler).

head wax - 21 July 2013 10:15 PM

You probably know that Daz as well as Dart and Dimension theory have sponsored the last two challenges very generously so they are in that way showing good support for Carrara users.

No, I haven’t kept up with the challenges.  Is there an animation component?  That is my real interest, still renders being mostly test shots preparing for an animation.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 11:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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I stated recently that I would recommend Carrara for anyone intrested in its features and content handling. However, this is up to a point, as I also stated in an older topic that Carrara 8.5’s final release will make or break my decision to continue to upgrade. The manual was one of the main things on my mind at the time(along with Bullet being finalised etc.).

Without a solid promise of a manual, or at least an update soon after C8.5, then I can’t in good conscience recommend it any longer. Its been to much time now. Im sure DAZ is fully aware that not having the manual this far into Carrara could turn away many hobbiest(the users I beleive DAZ is focused on).

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Posted: 21 July 2013 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Steve K wrote

No, I haven’t kept up with the challenges.  Is there an animation component?  That is my real interest, still renders being mostly test shots preparing for an animation.

Hi, the winner gets to pick the next topic. So maybe next time. I have in mind something to do with blowing things up, lots of them, lots of bangs, smile  Dartanbeck and Wendy are in the same ilk as far as animation. I just do renders cause life is short and I I’m trying to do it for a living - whereas I would never be able to do animation for a living - just needs too many people to do it commercially smile

tbwoq

last year I had a chap come into our studio on open day, he saw some of my r enders lieing around the painting studio and just spent ages looking at them. I put him onto carrara. I saw him the other day and asked him how he was going. “Not good” he said, he couldn’t come to terms with all the soft porn (his words) on the Daz site so he bought something called cheetah….

each to their own I guess - I happen to like girls in ‘bikini’s”

 

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Posted: 22 July 2013 12:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Hi head wax.

No doubt, DAZ is a great site for fantasy type renders of all kinds. Rendering people appears to be the best selling, at which Studio is probably king atm. The manual subject may be a sore point for many, but it seems that the sites skimpy outfit content subject comes up far more often. Anyway, the community is what has kept me here for so long.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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tbwoq - 21 July 2013 11:32 PM

I stated recently that I would recommend Carrara for anyone intrested in its features and content handling. However, this is up to a point, as I also stated in an older topic that Carrara 8.5’s final release will make or break my decision to continue to upgrade. The manual was one of the main things on my mind at the time(along with Bullet being finalised etc.).

Without a solid promise of a manual, or at least an update soon after C8.5, then I can’t in good conscience recommend it any longer. Its been to much time now. Im sure DAZ is fully aware that not having the manual this far into Carrara could turn away many hobbiest(the users I beleive DAZ is focused on).

Yes, I feel the same way.  When people ask about my videos and what software I use, I’ve always given Carrara high marks.  While I still enjoy working in it and probably always will, I cannot in good conscience recommend it to people anymore.  The lack of support from DAZ borders on the unethical, given their continued marketing technique.  And it results in users not recommending Carrara to others.  So I still think the lack of the promised manual is on topic for the “Why Isn’t Carrara Selling” thread, but as you may have noticed, that is not the general consensus.  Actually, the point may be that I should have been talking not about just the manual, but the overall lack of support.  Terrapin posted a comment like that yesterday in the “Why Isn’t Carrara Selling” topic, reading in part:

“The perception is that Daz is halfheartedly and disgustedly pushing the unappetizing, greasy, cold remains of Carrara around the plate, making it look more and more inedible with each passing nudge”

We’ll see if that is deemed “on topic” over there.

It does make me realize that this topic is misnamed (not chosen by me, but by the mod who frog marched me out of the “Not Selling” topic).  We are not really talking about the Carrara manual (content, format, etc.), but its non-existence.  So I thought a better name would be “Why Isn’t Carrara Selling?  Its The Manual, Stupid!”  But that is too specific, and my wife said it sounds spiteful, and that has no place here in the Forums, right?.  So maybe “The Lack Of A Manual” here in the Carrara forum.  Or “The Lack Of DAZ Support For Carrara”.  Something like that. 

Can I change the title of this topic?

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Posted: 22 July 2013 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Head Wax can change it if he wishes by editing the first post.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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fixmypcmike - 22 July 2013 11:06 AM

Head Wax can change it if he wishes by editing the first post.

Thanks for the prompt response.  I am a little confused, the first post is by Evil Producer, and I now see he is shown as the “author” of this topic in the list of Carrara Discussion Threads.  I think that was simply due to being the “cut point” where the messages got transferred from the “Why Is Carrara Not Selling” thread.  I doubt that Evil Producer is interested in being involved with this thread.

If I’m missing the point, I’ll talk to Head Wax.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Steve K - 21 July 2013 06:39 PM
CarltonMartin - 21 July 2013 04:47 PM

In general, I’ve given up expecting software manuals. They seem to have become extinct. I’m not giving any weight to the merit of the extinction, but I think it’s happened. Another area of service monetization, perhaps: if people really want to know how to use software, they can pay more money to an expert to teach them or to buy an expert’s book. I see it everywhere, not just Carrara. I haven’t gotten a real manual in, like a decade. Little pamphlets, “user guides” and the like, but not real manuals.

Just to clarify, are you referring specifically to printed manuals?  I think electronic/PDF manuals are acceptable, Online manuals are not quite as good (unless they are downloadable for offline reference), but better than nothing since most of us now have high speed Internet.  To me, a program as complex as Carrara needs a comprehensive manual to let the user understand the details of the features, or even to know what features are available.  Other high end programs I use include Adobe Photoshop CS and Ableton Live (a music composition program), and they both provided detailed printed manuals. “Particle Illusion” (a video effects program) provides a detailed electronic reference.  Certainly some simple apps can be understood with just the “Help” screens/popups, but I do reference the manuals I’ve mentioned fairly often.

And of course, DAZ promised the manual at purchase time, and still does.

ANY manual, even PDF. My CS5 has access to a full range of online help, but a sit down and read manual? Not really. I can get help with any tool, and there are tons of sample files, but not one of the programs came with anything resembling a manual. I literally can’t think of anything for years that’s come with anything more than a, “This is how you set up the program” booklet. I’m sitting here in front a bookcase full of old manuals that I haven’t touched in years, or added to in years. It rather astonished me to realize it; I’m a heavily visual person, and I’m hardly young at age 57, but I am firmly electronic now, and I’m much more likely to just get in there and do things and look up tools than read a manual. It’s a completely different approach than I started with, but even with Finale and Logic I’m just gonna do things. I’m a believer in happy accidents, to begin with, but it’s just too easy to look things up these days if I’ve truly got a question.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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CarltonMartin - 22 July 2013 12:20 PM

... I am firmly electronic now, and I’m much more likely to just get in there and do things and look up tools than read a manual. It’s a completely different approach than I started with, but even with Finale and Logic I’m just gonna do things. I’m a believer in happy accidents, to begin with, but it’s just too easy to look things up these days if I’ve truly got a question.

I also have Photoshop CS5, but its not on the machine I’m using now.  I am not the best test of the documentation, since I’ve used PS since V.3 (1994 - still have the 3.5” floppies!).  So its pretty close to second nature.  I don’t recall even using the CS5 Help, so I checked the reviews at Amazon (overall 4 stars out of five).  I did not see much discussion of the Help, but I did find this:

“Finally, it must be pointed out the the Help function is entirely on line. This can lead to slow responses to inquiries at best and I have had several occasions when the Adobe servers just did not respond and I got a dead window in my browser. So forget Help if you are off-line. On the other hand, the Help is very good if you can access it.”

So its a mixed verdict.  But at least its there, i.e. Adobe is not promising it “real soon now!”

The “online only” is not my first choice, but as you point out, we are all becoming “firmly electronic”.  I recently bought my first tablet, a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, very nice and with WiFi that lets me use the Chrome browser I like (syncs with all my four computers for one thing).  I’m pretty sure I could sit at the Community Pool (Wifi enabled) and browse the Adobe Help system, although I haven’t yet tried it.

My conclusion is still that complex software must be documented, or if not, the price reduced by the amount needed to buy “The Missing Manual”.  B-}  I have these for all the versions of Windows I am running - 2000Pro, XP, Vista, and W7.  This will not work for Carrara, since it has dwindled so far that a book cannot be justified.  PhilW’s C8 Video Tutorials are the best thing available (I have a couple), but not really a manual.

Thanks for the response, and BTW the “happy accident” is what we all hope for in the 48 Hour Video contest, live action or animation.  E.g. I recall a moderately good video in which a bit player gave a brilliant delivery of his one line, causing a lot of us (mostly film makers, casts and crews) to roll out of our seats laughing.  The video is now in their “Greatest Hits” compilation.  I recall Hollywood directors talking about hoping for things like that, since they can’t plan them.  An example is Indiana Jones when Harrison Ford had diarrhea, so the director had to shorten his time on camera. Instead of getting into the planned whip fight with the native expert, Jones (Ford) just pulled out a pistol and shot him.  Cut and print, and its Miller time.

 

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Posted: 22 July 2013 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Sorry, my mistake, evilproducer can change it, or we can try to get a consensus

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Posted: 22 July 2013 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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fixmypcmike. I would rearrange this topic again at the second(#2) post by Steve K. as author, and maybe an extended title. The first to mention the manual being outdated in the other topic was Ooseven(afaik, can’t detect edits on the new forum setup), but Steve K. brought it up again in discussion with DAZ_Spooky.

——

The manual is an important topic for those interested in learning Carrara and needs continued discussion. The, “Why isn’t Carrara selling?” topic, I believe the concern there was, promotion of Carrara is clearly limited when it should NOT be. But if new visitors knew how outdated the manual is, I can almost guarantee most would think twice before buying it. 

In my opinion, there are no excuses for not having an up to date manual by now. The older manual(s) do cover alot, but there are basic errors and direct misinformation that has stopped my workflow on many occasions. I suggested before, why not just add to or update the existing C6 manual. That way the format and images(etc.) doesn’t have to be totally redone.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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It’s not like it needs a complete rewrite. Just an update. And I have read more then one post by some one saying they weren’t buying/updating carrara because of the lacking of an up to date manual.

I’m not worried about it. The belief that programs need an manual is rather out dated.Most have an online resource, a wiki of sorts. There is also the wealth of info online that wasn’t available when programs needed and why they needed a manual.

I printed out the C6 manual, yes a hard copy. i read it cover to cover a few times, thing is a lot of it I didn’t understand. 3DAGE has explained carrara to me in ways I understand. So in essence I have learned far more about carrara from my fellow carraraests on this forum, then I ever did reading the manual.

I figured out a lot of C5 without reading the manual, any questions I had were answered on the old Carrara forum; pre DAZ. So forums have proven far more helpful to me then any manual could ever have been.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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ManStan - 22 July 2013 02:46 PM

It’s not like it needs a complete rewrite. Just an update. And I have read more then one post by some one saying they weren’t buying/updating carrara because of the lacking of an up to date manual.

I’m not worried about it. The belief that programs need an manual is rather out dated.Most have an online resource, a wiki of sorts. There is also the wealth of info online that wasn’t available when programs needed and why they needed a manual.

I printed out the C6 manual, yes a hard copy. i read it cover to cover a few times, thing is a lot of it I didn’t understand. 3DAGE has explained carrara to me in ways I understand. So in essence I have learned far more about carrara from my fellow carraraests on this forum, then I ever did reading the manual.

I figured out a lot of C5 without reading the manual, any questions I had were answered on the old Carrara forum; pre DAZ. So forums have proven far more helpful to me then any manual could ever have been.

Stan something has gone very wrong here,  You have just made a post that I agree with.  I have several real Bryce manuals, you know the big thick paper ones with cardboard covers, and I don’t think they have been opened. I learned to use Bryce 2 from magazine articles (prior to getting the internet) and everything else I have learned has been from the forums I frequent, not from manuals.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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fixmypcmike - 22 July 2013 01:18 PM

Sorry, my mistake, evilproducer can change it, or we can try to get a consensus

As I mentioned, I don’t think Evil Producer is interested in this thread, he is shown as author only due to the “cut point” of the transferred messages.  I agree with tbwoq’s suggestion, and propose the title “Lack Of An Up To Date Carrara Manual”.  If you think its necessary, we can let this ride for a while to see if there are any objections.  Thanks again.

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Posted: 22 July 2013 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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chohole - 22 July 2013 03:22 PM
ManStan - 22 July 2013 02:46 PM

It’s not like it needs a complete rewrite. Just an update. And I have read more then one post by some one saying they weren’t buying/updating carrara because of the lacking of an up to date manual.

I’m not worried about it. The belief that programs need an manual is rather out dated.Most have an online resource, a wiki of sorts. There is also the wealth of info online that wasn’t available when programs needed and why they needed a manual.

I printed out the C6 manual, yes a hard copy. i read it cover to cover a few times, thing is a lot of it I didn’t understand. 3DAGE has explained carrara to me in ways I understand. So in essence I have learned far more about carrara from my fellow carraraests on this forum, then I ever did reading the manual.

I figured out a lot of C5 without reading the manual, any questions I had were answered on the old Carrara forum; pre DAZ. So forums have proven far more helpful to me then any manual could ever have been.

Stan something has gone very wrong here,  You have just made a post that I agree with.  I have several real Bryce manuals, you know the big thick paper ones with cardboard covers, and I don’t think they have been opened. I learned to use Bryce 2 from magazine articles (prior to getting the internet) and everything else I have learned has been from the forums I frequent, not from manuals.

You agreed with Stan?  You really need to sit down and have a drink.  The end of the world is nigh!

What’s really weird is that I agree with you both.  Armageddon!  I can hear the bowels of Hell opening beneath me right now.

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