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Posted: 20 July 2013 10:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Steve K - 20 July 2013 09:15 PM
head wax - 20 July 2013 08:36 PM

As far as insulting DazSpooky…. well he comes and gives us hints on what’s going on.
Insulting Daz spooky (antagonising or whatever) is like being in a dark room and throwing away your flashlight cause you don’t like what it’s showing you.

Historically DazSpooky has been a good “bloke”.


I did not insult Spooky.  I objected to his obnoxious comments to me.  I don’t know who he is, or about his history, and only heard from him in his recent nonsense comments to my posts.  He offered nothing to me regarding the future of Carrara’s manual (now three years past the promised version to paying customers), and displayed ignorance about its history.  And displayed a complete disdain for long term Carrara users.  IMHO.

Hi Steve, yes I can see your point.
Reading between the lines I would say that dazspooky said “yes, there will be no updated manual” He just didn’t say it in words that’s all wink
From his responses I would say that he is under stress.

Yes, Daz has a moral and consumer obligation to give carrara users an up to date manual.
That said, I am sure they would recognise your right to a full refund on Carrara if you feel that the product does not function to your requirements without a manual.

Not that that would help anyone.

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 20 July 2013 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Steve K - 20 July 2013 09:15 PM
head wax - 20 July 2013 08:36 PM

As far as insulting DazSpooky…. well he comes and gives us hints on what’s going on.
Insulting Daz spooky (antagonising or whatever) is like being in a dark room and throwing away your flashlight cause you don’t like what it’s showing you.

Historically DazSpooky has been a good “bloke”.


I did not insult Spooky.  I objected to his obnoxious comments to me.  I don’t know who he is, or about his history, and only heard from him in his recent nonsense comments to my posts.  He offered nothing to me regarding the future of Carrara’s manual (now three years past the promised version to paying customers), and displayed ignorance about its history.  And displayed a complete disdain for long term Carrara users.  IMHO.

Humble opinion or not, DAZ isn’t responsible for not having a new manual since version 2, as DAZ did not own Carrara in Version 2. They bought it around version 5 or 6. That was Spooky’s point. Find the guys that ran Eovia and start bitching at them too, because I can tell you, aside from screen shots, some of the text in the version 7 manual is the same as in the Raydream Studio 5 manual, which was circa ‘97 or so, which is even earlier than when Eovia had Carrara.


The version 7 manual is not a complete re-write of the manual it is an updated version of previous manuals. The vast majority of the features and locations of the tools covered in the C7 manual are still relevant for the C8 production build. DAZ intended to update the manual, but the person or firm they hired to do it didn’t deliver. This was covered in threads in the old forum.


Then there was the economic disaster and DAZ, just like everybody else, circled the proverbial wagons. The result everywhere was slower development and focusing on core business models. Unneeded, marginally profitable and unprofitable projects would have been delayed or killed outright. I lost my nicely paying job when the economy tanked, as did millions of other people. Suddenly buying power is considerably reduced. Essentials take priority over luxury or hobby purchases. Now ask yourself, does DAZ make products that are really needed, or are they more of an optional purchase?


I really don’t get why people have a hard time figuring this out.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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cool hmm

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Posted: 21 July 2013 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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head wax - 20 July 2013 10:50 PM

Yes, Daz has a moral and consumer obligation to give carrara users an up to date manual.
That said, I am sure they would recognise your right to a full refund on Carrara if you feel that the product does not function to your requirements without a manual.

 

Yes, that is the bottom line.  Taking a customer’s money and then not providing the promised product is irresponsible on the part of any company.  As it stands, Carrara 8 Pro is still for sale on the website with a list price of $550, currently on sale for $285 (non-PC price).  The Documentation page still says the manual is “To be provided shortly!”, the same as it has for several years. 

It does seem apparent that no manual is forthcoming.  The lack of comprehensive documentation for a program as complex as Carrara is a real problem (and to clarify, I don’t mean a printed manual, an electronic version is fine).  I think a responsible company would contact each purchaser and acknowledge the situation, pointing to any available substitutes and offering various options as restitution.  I do like the program and do not want to give it up, but there are other things DAZ could do.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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ManStan - 21 July 2013 06:19 AM

Oh my got. Steve K you have been pushing your freaking agenda in MY thread for too Fn long. You have went way out of your way to push this thread off topic ...

I consider DAZ’ misrepresentation of the Carrara product as relevant to the topic.  If customers realize that the documentation (still being promised today) does not exist, it will not help sales.  Further, it speaks badly for DAZ’ commitment to the product, and even their corporate behavior.

The insults, intimidation and lies directed at me are unacceptable.  Other than a few people like Headwax, no one seems willing to accept the obvious truth, that DAZ is not delivering what was paid for, and apparently intends to keep operating in this mode.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Steve K - 21 July 2013 10:43 AM
ManStan - 21 July 2013 06:19 AM

Oh my got. Steve K you have been pushing your freaking agenda in MY thread for too Fn long. You have went way out of your way to push this thread off topic ...

I consider DAZ’ misrepresentation of the Carrara product as relevant to the topic.  If customers realize that the documentation (still being promised today) does not exist, it will not help sales.  Further, it speaks badly for DAZ’ commitment to the product, and even their corporate behavior.

The insults, intimidation and lies directed at me are unacceptable.  Other than a few people like Headwax, no one seems willing to accept the obvious truth, that DAZ is not delivering what was paid for, and apparently intends to keep operating in this mode.

Perhaps I’m missing something here. No… I know I’m missing a few things here.

Firstly, I agree (only slightly) that bringing up the fact of a missing, shiny new manual is indeed a possible cause for a possible lack or loss of sales - but then it’s done. Beyond that, I totally agree with ManStan to just get your own “Lack of Manual” complaint thread going and run your complaints there. Now, please… do not take that as insulting, or the like… please!
I agree that Carrara needs to have a working manual in place. I have gone to the executive level of the company to complain about it - in case you’re wondering whether my comment is serious enough. Me. The DAZ 3D cheerleader… lol

Here are a couple of facts, however.
Wendy gave a link which led to the Beta beginnings of the new Carrara 8 Manual link. A manual who’s material has not be publicly updated since 17 June, 2010. In other words, a long time ago. Nonetheless… it’s a new manual in the works.

The thirty day money back guarantee is one that, if used for such reasons - so be it. It is what it is. Part of what makes Carrara cost a tenth or even less than its competition is that it doesn’t have a full time, year round staff working on nothing bu it and its improvements. These things are worth the extra cash to many people - and so they’ll opt for Maya, or 3DS, Lightwave. These may have some very thick manuals - but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear folks complain that there isn’t enough “helpful” knowledge to be gleaned from those, expensive manuals either! That’s why people can make a wholesome living doing nothing more than showing people how it works. And this is software costing ten times and more than Carrara’s list price - which is more than reasonable even if it only came with version 5’s manual! Wait… I didn’t really say that last - scratch that.
Trust me. I want a more complete manual, too. Is it a system crasher having only the Carrara 6 Pro manual that it’s shipped with? Possibly for some - certainly not for me.

Agreed about its lack of a current manual makes it look less than professional.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Okay.  I have clearly generated a lot of anger here, and that was never my intent.  I really do believe that the lack of a manual is on topic for the “Not Selling” issue, but I am clearly in the minority.  I also probably overreacted to comments that I perceived as personally insulting, even if they were not intended that way.  Internet discussions, without body language, can result in misunderstandings.

In any case, I think my concern about Daz’ handling of the Carrara product is clear.  I’d like to think they’ll make some changes, but I guess we’ll see.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Steve K - 21 July 2013 12:39 PM

Okay.  I have clearly generated a lot of anger here, and that was never my intent.  I really do believe that the lack of a manual is on topic for the “Not Selling” issue, but I am clearly in the minority.  I also probably overreacted to comments that I perceived as personally insulting, even if they were not intended that way.  Internet discussions, without body language, can result in misunderstandings.

In any case, I think my concern about Daz’ handling of the Carrara product is clear.  I’d like to think they’ll make some changes, but I guess we’ll see.

No!!!
It’s my way of talking that I think you might be taking wrongly!
Sorry ‘bout that, Steve!
No…
I’m trying to say my take of the situation while kind of agreeing, yet also seeing the other side, that the issue fit just fine! lol
I really want a dog gone manual!
I bet that you’re not going to be the only person wanting to see a new manual before investing in further ‘version’ updates that cost more money! We paid for a promised manual, didn’t we?

I just think that, once that point has been made, and an argument ensues over the issue, but the OP decides that such an argument is killing his OP, well then it’s likely better to simply start a new thread, like this one.

Sorry Steve. I talk funny.

(just posting a pic to add some color)

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Posted: 21 July 2013 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Okay, totally off topic, and I’ll edit this back on topic if you insist I do:
But click the above pic and look at her smile. My Rose has given me that smile as long as I’ve known her and it was incredibly easy to make after injecting every darned expression I could buy into my V4 version of her as my hero. It is this fact that gives me pause when there are discussions heating up about Genesis 1 vs Genesis 2, when neither have stolen me away from Generation 4 yet! lol

Steve K,
Truly - I admire your stamina on this topic and I know that you likely have a huge, silent following right now. I am within that following, but I’m far from silent. Just overworked and overheated right now - though today is cool bliss along this Lake I live by - I live a block away from the local lighthouse along northern Lake Michigan. Anyways…

Ever since you’ve posted a link to one of your videos in 2010, I’ve been a Steve K fan - even if it might have been a different name at the time. I don’t remember names very well, and perhaps it might have been a team member who posted it. But I don’t forget videos after I see them again and again - and many of yours, I’ve seen again and again and again - because I really like them. So if I were ever to confront you on an issue - which… I am a rather honest, if not opinionated, fellow - I will do so without insult. If insult is taken, then I have been taken incorrectly.
Sorry if I made you feel otherwise.

ManStan, EP, HeadWax, All you guys… and Wendy, too… smile
You know I respect you folks too. I’m not trying to start a fight. But I will defend the idea that undocumented applications are fine for beta and free offerings. A promise is fine… so long as it doesn’t become a lie.
There are many things that I would be doing differently, and I think, more efficiently, if I knew a better way to do it in Carrara - and I’m fairly certain that such information exists. Well, I would really love to have that information!
I’m not in a huge hurry though.
I love the time that I spend in Carrara - and DAZ knows that I’ll just pay. And I’m fine with that for a time. Even if the solution for them would be to have Infinite Skills get Phil Wilkes and whomever Phil might get to co-anchor, to perform the task and I would have to pay for the info. I (but I know that the masses might kill me for this) would be happy to pay for it! Well I truly would. They’ve been more than fair about all of the pricing that they’ve ever given me for everything I’ve bought - and then they turn around and give back nearly as much - possibly even more, if I tally it all up. Perhaps it’s being a Platinum Club Member? Perhaps. I wouldn’t know - I’ve been one since 2010 - and I think I’ll be one for the rest of my life. Just sayin’

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Posted: 21 July 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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In general, I’ve given up expecting software manuals. They seem to have become extinct. I’m not giving any weight to the merit of the extinction, but I think it’s happened. Another area of service monetization, perhaps: if people really want to know how to use software, they can pay more money to an expert to teach them or to buy an expert’s book. I see it everywhere, not just Carrara. I haven’t gotten a real manual in, like a decade. Little pamphlets, “user guides” and the like, but not real manuals.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Dartanbeck - 21 July 2013 02:20 PM

I just think that, once that point has been made, and an argument ensues over the issue, but the OP decides that such an argument is killing his OP, well then it’s likely better to simply start a new thread, like this one.

 

Yes, and normally I would agree and just do that.  What happened here was that, due to a long running sore point with me involving DAZ moderators stifling any discussion of the manual issue, I got irritated with Moderator Spooky’s initial response to my first post on the manual issue.  I saw it as yet more DAZ stonewalling, and still don’t understand the relevance of the V.2 manual (others say they see the point, so I must be missing something).  So then I got a lot of grief for “attacking” Spooky (the “good bloke” I had never talked to before), who was probably a little surprised by my irritation, not being aware of my sore point.  I was mad at DAZ, but I mistakenly used Spooky as my target.  Things got heated from there, and I got angry.  The manual was no longer the issue for me, it was the tone of the responses.  I certainly bear a good part of the blame for the trouble, and this is not intended as pointing a finger at anybody else.

I do believe that DAZ should resolve the manual issue one way or another.  If they are not going to update the manual, they should tell people that upfront (not in the fine print), and let them decide what to do.  The “To be provided shortly!” status on the documentation page is pretty shaky.  The story about the contractor not delivering is not convincing.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Ahhh….
I thought you were referring to my recent comment. My mistake.
Carlton, I totally see your point. I’ve spent some decent coin on software lately and some of it has no more than a “Thank you for purchasing…” document with a small blurb about “Getting Started” and then the web address - the same one we already knew, because we just bought the software. So I guess I am grateful to get the killer manual that we already DID get.
So… good point, sir.

There… Done looking in this thread now - finally.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 06:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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CarltonMartin - 21 July 2013 04:47 PM

In general, I’ve given up expecting software manuals. They seem to have become extinct. I’m not giving any weight to the merit of the extinction, but I think it’s happened. Another area of service monetization, perhaps: if people really want to know how to use software, they can pay more money to an expert to teach them or to buy an expert’s book. I see it everywhere, not just Carrara. I haven’t gotten a real manual in, like a decade. Little pamphlets, “user guides” and the like, but not real manuals.

Just to clarify, are you referring specifically to printed manuals?  I think electronic/PDF manuals are acceptable, Online manuals are not quite as good (unless they are downloadable for offline reference), but better than nothing since most of us now have high speed Internet.  To me, a program as complex as Carrara needs a comprehensive manual to let the user understand the details of the features, or even to know what features are available.  Other high end programs I use include Adobe Photoshop CS and Ableton Live (a music composition program), and they both provided detailed printed manuals. “Particle Illusion” (a video effects program) provides a detailed electronic reference.  Certainly some simple apps can be understood with just the “Help” screens/popups, but I do reference the manuals I’ve mentioned fairly often.

And of course, DAZ promised the manual at purchase time, and still does.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Dartanbeck - 21 July 2013 02:48 PM

Okay, totally off topic, and I’ll edit this back on topic if you insist I do:
But click the above pic and look at her smile. My Rose has given me that smile as long as I’ve known her and it was incredibly easy to make after injecting every darned expression I could buy into my V4 version of her as my hero. It is this fact that gives me pause when there are discussions heating up about Genesis 1 vs Genesis 2, when neither have stolen me away from Generation 4 yet! lol

Yes, very nice and a true testament to Gen4 possibilities.  I am also a dedicated Gen4 addict, and might be willing to bet a beer on which of us has the most purchased expressions.  In my case, its probably more important since manual posing time does not fit well into the 48 Hour type contests.  My PC membership expires in a few days and I am wrestling with whether to renew.  I already own essentially all the current DAZ content usable in Carrara for my projects, and the new releases for Gen4, or even Poser importable to Carrara 8.1, seem to be dwindling dramatically.  I have not used Poser fo a long time, and really doubt that DS is what I want, judging by comments from animators like Ivy.

Dartanbeck - 21 July 2013 02:48 PM

Steve K,
Truly - I admire your stamina on this topic and I know that you likely have a huge, silent following right now. I am within that following, but I’m far from silent. Just overworked and overheated right now - though today is cool bliss along this Lake I live by - I live a block away from the local lighthouse along northern Lake Michigan. Anyways…

 

Ever since you’ve posted a link to one of your videos in 2010, I’ve been a Steve K fan - even if it might have been a different name at the time. I don’t remember names very well, and perhaps it might have been a team member who posted it. But I don’t forget videos after I see them again and again - and many of yours, I’ve seen again and again and again - because I really like them. So if I were ever to confront you on an issue - which… I am a rather honest, if not opinionated, fellow - I will do so without insult. If insult is taken, then I have been taken incorrectly.
Sorry if I made you feel otherwise.

 

I’d be surprised at having that following, folks seem to be happy with the status quo.  My stamina has fallen off in recent years, and the stress of the irritation/arguments/etc. did get me pretty exhausted at times.  I don’t recommend it to anyone else, especially since I convinced virtually nobody.

I’m flattered by your comments on my short animations.  As I’ve mentioned, the one good thing about the 48 Hour contest (beside just the challenge and being at a full theater watching your video) is being able to say “Great!  Glad you liked it!”  or, “Okay sorry it didn’t work for you, but we only had two days ...”  (My first name is Gary which shows up at, e.g., YouTube.  I usually go by my middle name)

After these recent discussions, I think we’ll have no problem in the future.  I am wondering if more use of private messages is preferable, to avoid misunderstandings with strangers.

Dartanbeck - 21 July 2013 02:48 PM

ManStan, EP, HeadWax, All you guys… and Wendy, too… smile
You know I respect you folks too. I’m not trying to start a fight. But I will defend the idea that undocumented applications are fine for beta and free offerings. A promise is fine… so long as it doesn’t become a lie.
There are many things that I would be doing differently, and I think, more efficiently, if I knew a better way to do it in Carrara - and I’m fairly certain that such information exists. Well, I would really love to have that information!
I’m not in a huge hurry though.
I love the time that I spend in Carrara - and DAZ knows that I’ll just pay. And I’m fine with that for a time. Even if the solution for them would be to have Infinite Skills get Phil Wilkes and whomever Phil might get to co-anchor, to perform the task and I would have to pay for the info. I (but I know that the masses might kill me for this) would be happy to pay for it! Well I truly would. They’ve been more than fair about all of the pricing that they’ve ever given me for everything I’ve bought - and then they turn around and give back nearly as much - possibly even more, if I tally it all up. Perhaps it’s being a Platinum Club Member? Perhaps. I wouldn’t know - I’ve been one since 2010 - and I think I’ll be one for the rest of my life. Just sayin’

I agree that DAZ provides very good value for their content, as my 700 item collection and years long PC membership might indicate.  Their direction in recent years for applications, on the other hand ...

I probably missed responding to something, lemme know.

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Posted: 21 July 2013 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Hi Steve K,

If it makes you feel any better, we’ve been hammering at daz’s door for a longtime for a manual. There would pretty vocal posters too, but they no longer post here. I think they realised it was a waste of time trying to get daz to honour daz’s consumer obligations.

Me, I’m just happy to have Carrara and when I can’t figure something out I ask here, and usually someone with good brains will help me, thank fully.

Actually I have two hard copies of the c7 manual, I printed it out last year, but accidentally printed 2, I was scractching my head wondering why it was taking so long, lucky I have a good laser printer…. so one of them I turned into 876 paper planes wink

You probably know that Daz as well as Dart and Dimension theory have sponsored the last two challenges very generously so they are in that way showing good support for Carrara users.

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