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I want V4 Products not V5 or V6. Planned Obsolescence Has To Stop.
Posted: 15 July 2013 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 226 ]
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Paradigm67 - 15 July 2013 02:08 PM

Not once have I had an issue with Genesis being male and female.

I know, right? It’s the 21st century, LGBT is acceptable already!

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Posted: 16 July 2013 01:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 227 ]
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Greetings,

Paradigm67 - 15 July 2013 02:08 PM

My issue with it isn’t with planned obsolescence, but that, with G2, they are taking 2 steps that I disagree with:

1. I don’t agree with changing the base mesh so much that it disabled genesis morphs and clothing for working without taking extra steps. The changes that they advertise are minimal and I honestly believe could have been fixed while retaining backwards compatibility with Genesis 1.

2. (Much worse). This isn’t Genesis 2. This is Genesis 2 [STRONG]Female.[/STRONG] DAZ has decided to make unique figures for male and female (and children, I believe?). They do this, they say, for the sake of being able to be have more gender specific options for figures, but I think this is a phantom problem. Not once have I had an issue with Genesis being male and female.

3. G2:F is just plain hideous.

While I think 1 and 2 are technical issues that they felt strongly about, and chose to fix with a new base figure.  Reading between the lines, I think it may even have been at the encouragement of PA’s who DID have a problem (technical, not moral) building content for a non-gender-specific base and relying on morphs to convert to the female mode.

<armchair quarterbacking>
Let me give you an example from today’s DAZ Original, extrapolating hugely from what I’ve understood about how content is produced.  Look at the breasts on the Avalon Adventure Outfit, more specifically the area between them.  It shrink-wraps in.  That’s because the clothing is modeled to Base Genesis (the best practice for clothing modeling is to do that, apparently) and then conforms as the Base Female is dialed in.  You have to go out of your way to add morphs that recognize the breasts appearing and add a gape to the space between the breasts.  SRMS apparently helps with this, but nobody else seems to use it for their clothes, unfortunately.

If you instead model it to a female, presumably, you start with the appropriate cloth behavior and changes to the breasts should be reflected in the better breast bridging.  Now, notably, I feel like you can tell G2F clothing that was Base Genesis modeled first, because it still has that cling-wrap effect, and it’s not obvious if PA’s are using the female-specific nature yet.  The hope/expectation is that when they do, clothing will get better.  But we’re in the early days yet…  And I could be completely wrong, since…well, I’m not a modeler, I just try to understand how it works.
</armchair quarterbacking>

But on the 3rd point…  I STRONGLY disagree..  It’s one of my favorite base characters; I can render G2F straight up, with some hair and a simple outfit, and I feel like I’ve got a person there, unlike GBF, I don’t even need to morph it.  I can, and I do sometimes, but the base character resonates with me exceptionally well.  Significantly better than GBF did.

This is a matter of taste, IMO, and I understand that at the core you disagree with the (previous 2) technical choices they’ve made, but I wanted to make it clear that on the 3rd, less relevant, point there is definite disagreement.  For the technical choices, IMO, my opinion is still out.  I’m happy to buy it, and I think it’s good, and I think it’ll drive better content in the future, but I simply don’t pretend to have the expertise or actual data to determine whether they were the right choices.

— Morgan

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Posted: 16 July 2013 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 228 ]
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I remember seeing a couple of promo’s in the store, don’t know if it was G2F or V6 where she did look hideous. Most of the promos they’ve looked perfectly fine so these two stuck out.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 02:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 229 ]
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Greetings,

anikad - 16 July 2013 01:23 AM

I remember seeing a couple of promo’s in the store, don’t know if it was G2F or V6 where she did look hideous. Most of the promos they’ve looked perfectly fine so these two stuck out.

Ah; there are a few characters with what seem (to my untrained eye) to be uncomfortably long necks.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say ‘hideous’, but they weren’t my cuppa, and I didn’t pick them up.  Similarly I wasn’t a fan of Candace, because she looks _angry_ in all the promos (probably a combination of the slight fold above her eye, and her mouth set back slightly which seems to create a perpetual sneer), which is a shallow and absurd reason, but…well, I rarely claim to be a very good person.

So I’m all fine with saying that some of the characters are definitely not what I would use, or buy, but the base G2F is very nice IMNSHO. ;)

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Posted: 16 July 2013 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 230 ]
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Paradigm67 - 15 July 2013 02:08 PM

My issue with it isn’t with planned obsolescence, but that, with G2, they are taking 2 steps that I disagree with:

1. I don’t agree with changing the base mesh so much that it disabled genesis morphs and clothing for working without taking extra steps. The changes that they advertise are minimal and I honestly believe could have been fixed while retaining backwards compatibility with Genesis 1.

2. (Much worse). This isn’t Genesis 2. This is Genesis 2 [STRONG]Female.[/STRONG] DAZ has decided to make unique figures for male and female (and children, I believe?). They do this, they say, for the sake of being able to be have more gender specific options for figures, but I think this is a phantom problem. Not once have I had an issue with Genesis being male and female.

3. G2:F is just plain hideous.

Firstly, whenever a new mesh is introduced it’s invariably incompatible with previous versions. This was the same for Genesis with regards to Gen4 morphs (now somewhat remedied with the incredible GenX, but I digress) and Gen4 with Gen3 morphs. The reason is really quite simple to understand. The vertex counts are now different, the topology now works differently, and everything has to be designed with the new mesh in mind rather than the old. I assure you that if you were to simply apply one of the old Genesis morphs to a Genesis 2 figure the results would be ugly at best, and downright distorted at worst.

If rumours are to be believed, there is a GenX coming out which will allow you to convert Genesis morphs for Genesis 2 Female. Something to look forward to I think.

Secondly, while I echo your feelings about there being a gender split I am starting to realise exactly why this split was implemented, and what benefits it can actually offer. After my initial ranting and raving I took a closer look at the figure and started pulling it apart (almost literally) to see what reason there could have been for the split. It’s not hard to see why the mesh is geared more towards females than men, and it’s largely due to the topology. Where vertices meet you get your creases and small details in the mesh, and if those creases are in the wrong places, it can give unusual results when performing certain types of morphs. There is a lot more detail in the breasts and hips on Genesis 2, and much of their design suggests that creating men, while entirely possible, probably wouldn’t look as accurate as females would.

Finally, just no. Even when I was fuming about the gender split and raging about concerns over future availability for classic Genesis, never have I thought that Gen2 Female was ‘ugly’. I still consider Gen2 Female and ‘Victoria 6’ to be virtually synonymous, but that’s certainly not a bad thing if you want a female adult in your render. Aside from coming out of the box with a wonderful texture set, she’s almost picture perfect in terms of proportions and design. Now that there’s morphs which will enhance her appearance, I’m struggling to find an excuse not to replace my existing females with the new girl. She’s more expressive, she’s more accurate and damn if those Victoria 6 textures aren’t to die for.

Of course, this is all just the opinion of humble old me. I will say that if you consider she won me over when I was also very skeptical about the figure that’s got to say at least something about the quality. I’m actually eagerly looking forward to the next figure and I would be absolutely bowled over if they have plans for a Kids 5 figure using the same system.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 231 ]
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It’s not hard to see why the mesh is geared more towards females than men, and it’s largely due to the topology.

Interesting argument because I believe I saw the creator of G2F and G2M (MallenLane) saying that the mesh for G2F and G2M would be the same, vertex-wise. If true It would be fun to check your post when G2M would be released.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 232 ]
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Kattey - 16 July 2013 06:44 AM

It’s not hard to see why the mesh is geared more towards females than men, and it’s largely due to the topology.

Interesting argument because I believe I saw the creator of G2F and G2M (MallenLane) saying that the mesh for G2F and G2M would be the same, vertex-wise. If true It would be fun to check your post when G2M would be released.

The number of vertices can be the same while changing the mesh flow. These are two separate things.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 233 ]
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Male-M3dia - 16 July 2013 06:59 AM
Kattey - 16 July 2013 06:44 AM

It’s not hard to see why the mesh is geared more towards females than men, and it’s largely due to the topology.

Interesting argument because I believe I saw the creator of G2F and G2M (MallenLane) saying that the mesh for G2F and G2M would be the same, vertex-wise. If true It would be fun to check your post when G2M would be released.

The number of vertices can be the same while changing the mesh flow. These are two separate things.

Do you mean the position of those vertices will be changed somewhat, without adding new vertices, or changing their order like it is in any morph ever? I can, of course, be mistaken but the impression I got is that it would be the same female mesh, only modified to appear manly or even that initially it could have been a unisex mesh, rigged separately for G2F and G2M. While everything is possible and I can again, be mistaken, from past experiences I highly doubt it would be a different mesh - since Generation 2 through Generations 3 and 4 DAZ3D likes to reuse the same mesh not only because it creates a better user experience but because it lessens the development time; the whole unimesh idea is based upon both of this aspects. And while it is possible to add new or remove old edges without breaking of the mesh, vertex number, vertex order or UVs (even Hexagon can do it, if awkwardly), the G2F mostly have a new mesh density in same places that are important for both male and female figures (face, knees, etc) and human anatomy and muscles aren’t that different between genders (attachable toasts aside) to validate a significant amount of completely new edge loops.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 234 ]
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Kattey - 16 July 2013 07:26 AM

Do you mean the position of those vertices will be changed somewhat, without adding new vertices, or changing their order like it is in any morph ever?

Morphs don’t change the vertex order. In fact, they rely on it to assign the correct translations to each corresponding vertex. That’s why it’s crucial to not disturb the vertex order when exporting Genesis for morph purposes, and why even deleting a single vertex to move it can break the resulting morph.

Genesis 2 Female is the name of the figure, not merely Genesis 2 which implies they’ll be using a unique mesh. If they were using the exact same mesh, then there would be no need for the gender distinction and most people here wouldn’t have many complaints. They can both retain the exact number of polygons and vertices and still have a different layout, depending on which vertices are connected. They might even retain a similar vertex order so that morphs can be interchanged between Genesis 2 figures, but that’s pure speculation.

Curiously, the Gen4 characters all had identical meshes, which is why morphs for one figure often worked on another and is also why both M4 and K4 worryingly have so many extra polygons in the groin intended to accommodate vaginal morphs. However, clothes were specifically designed with one morph of that mesh in mind, so presumably were easier to develop for.

It is certainly evidence that they could have easily gone a unisex route if they had chosen to do so, and time will indeed tell whether or not Genesis 2 Male proves to be a different mesh or just a remastered one, as right now all we have is speculation. If ultimately it turns out to be the same mesh, then it’s evidence the split was either manufactured to gather extra sales from the divide or an attempt to please PA’s by giving them fewer compatibilities to worry about. I guess we’ll find out sooner or later.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 235 ]
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HeraldOfFire - 16 July 2013 08:31 AM

I guess we’ll find out sooner or later.

Yeah, at this point it is all more speculations than anything else. I’m just saying that I personally will be highly surprised if it would be a new mesh (like actual new mesh, not just G2F with a couple of changed edge loops) because with all past generations DAZ3D demonstrated that they can create a very believable and realistic female and male figures from the same mesh.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 236 ]
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Kattey - 16 July 2013 08:52 AM

I’m just saying that I personally will be highly surprised if it would be a new mesh (like actual new mesh, not just G2F with a couple of changed edge loops)

If they change the edge loops they’d drastically change how the figure behaves when morphing and the fit of clothing. I feel it would be drastic enough to justify the gender swap. V4 and M4 have identical edge loops and identical poly/vertex counts since they truly are identical meshes. Ironically there are some I’ve seen who worship V4 for being a ‘unique’ mesh yet dislike G2F for the same reasons, possibly unaware that there was no real mesh differences in the 4th gen figures.

Of course, back then we didn’t have weight mapping, so it made more sense to have separate figures. If they feel they needed to split the genders once more, it’s probably a safe bet that there will be some significant differences between the two.

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Posted: 16 July 2013 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 237 ]
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HeraldOfFire - 16 July 2013 10:04 AM

Of course, back then we didn’t have weight mapping, so it made more sense to have separate figures. If they feel they needed to split the genders once more, it’s probably a safe bet that there will be some significant differences between the two.

This is why it would be fun to go back and check these expectations when G2M would be released wink

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Posted: 16 July 2013 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 238 ]
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Cypherfox - 16 July 2013 01:17 AM

<armchair quarterbacking>
Let me give you an example from today’s DAZ Original, extrapolating hugely from what I’ve understood about how content is produced.  Look at the breasts on the Avalon Adventure Outfit, more specifically the area between them.  It shrink-wraps in.  That’s because the clothing is modeled to Base Genesis (the best practice for clothing modeling is to do that, apparently) and then conforms as the Base Female is dialed in.  You have to go out of your way to add morphs that recognize the breasts appearing and add a gape to the space between the breasts.  SRMS apparently helps with this, but nobody else seems to use it for their clothes, unfortunately.

If you instead model it to a female, presumably, you start with the appropriate cloth behavior and changes to the breasts should be reflected in the better breast bridging.  Now, notably, I feel like you can tell G2F clothing that was Base Genesis modeled first, because it still has that cling-wrap effect, and it’s not obvious if PA’s are using the female-specific nature yet.  The hope/expectation is that when they do, clothing will get better.  But we’re in the early days yet…  And I could be completely wrong, since…well, I’m not a modeler, I just try to understand how it works.
</armchair quarterbacking>

Yes, I think this is the main reason for the split. DAZ made a decision with the original Genesis line to release a Basic Female shape, but not to make other female characters a morph off of that shape. As a result, if you model content on Basic Female, but the customer dials Basic Female to 0 and V5 to 100%, the clothing has to auto-adjust twice, once to get rid of BF, once to add morphs for V5. So creators have been advised to model on the unmorphed Genesis base so the system will only have to morph the clothing once, which many creators felt made it hard to model convincing female clothing, and then each female shape has to be supported manually to avoid the “cling wrap” effect. (And the same for the guys, of course, though the effect is less obvious in the chest area.)

With G2F, the “base” shape to model for is the female, and all other morphs will be built from that, so the generally female shape is automatically supported. Of course, the farther you get from that basic female shape, the more the system has to try to adjust to fit, and the more likely you are to get artifacts like the cling-wrap effect, but since most female figures will be at least somewhat similar to G2F, the effect isn’t that pronounced.

I don’t have any “insider” information on how G2M will be made, other than the public statements that the vertices will be the same. But at a guess, based on the way Genesis worked and the way G2F works, G2M will be the same mesh with slightly different rigging and probably a new UV map. But G2F and G2M could each be considered morphs from an underlying androgynous figure, Genesis 2, which is never released and isn’t used directly to build character morphs from. (Except that you can get there with the G2F Body Morphs, which includes the androgynous morph.)

The outcome is that clothes modeled for G2F will fit G2M less well than clothes modeled for the androgynous base would have (and vice versa), but clothes modeled for G2F will fit other female figures better than clothes modeled for the androgynous base, and same for male clothes on male figures.

I’m still not enthusiastic about the tradeoff. The capabilities of Genesis, especially with SRMS, met my needs well enough, and I really liked not having to worry about which gender content was made for when trying to fit it to my characters, plus the content generally worked better for child characters than any content built for adult gendered figures. And since I do a lot with non-human figures, I really liked being able to make a range of morphed figures with or without gender features based on my needs. But for people who want to render photorealistic humans, I can see that this system is likely to give better results.

As far as the OP goes… I think others have tried to explain that supporting 4th gen takes a lot of effort beyond supporting the latest generation figure, and that sales are less and less likely to compensate the creator for the extra effort, unless the outfit is highly unusual, yet still popular with a wide variety of customers. Folks who are trying to make a living at this need to do what will pay the bills. To a certain extent, we have to assume that if the content we want (e.g. for a particular figure, a certain style or genre, etc.) is rare, there may not be enough of us who want it to make it commercially viable. :(

If you really think there’s enough of a market for a V4 conversion of some newer item, see if the vendor in question is willing to commit to a conversion if you can raise the funds through Kickstarter or similar to compensate them for their work. (But don’t be too surprised if you have a hard time gathering enough supporters to cover the costs of the project—the vendor probably has a pretty good idea of whether there are enough potential customers out there or not.)

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Posted: 16 July 2013 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 239 ]
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I think this whole issue comes down to how small the 3D community is, even if it is growing. This wouldn’t be an issue if you could rebuild your library for $50 instead of $500, but artists need to/ want to make money from their products, so you get $20 characters being sold to 50 people instead of $2 characters being sold to 500.

Because of this, the release of a new generation (and the promise of much less support for the previous generation) causes a lot of unrest for those who have large libraries. Myself, I subsist mostly on freebies, but my library for genesis is quickly approaching multiple the couple $100 mark. I can’t imagine how much re-equipping a large library will cost O_O

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Posted: 16 July 2013 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 240 ]
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RCDeschene - 12 July 2013 01:26 AM

But just exactly how much of male content out there can we really call “man-slutware”.

Wayyyy too much. It bothers me more than the female stuff, because from what I’ve generally seen:

RCDeschene - 12 July 2013 01:26 AM

It’s nowhere near as ego stroking for guys or hormone enticing for women and homosexual men as much as all the female stuff here does for female idealism and hetero male lust.

...this is the case, but for the “slutwear.” So much of it looks like just female stuff converted to a male figure because I guess it’s edgy or something? It doesn’t accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form. So many sexy female suits out there, so much attention to detail, about nothing like that for the males, when the suit is the quintessential “sexy male” outfit.

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