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Victoria 6 has been released.
Posted: 30 June 2013 10:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 511 ]
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I see very little difference here. Genesis = Harder work to achieve the same thing VS. BF2/V6 = Less work to achieve minimal improvements.

Yeah, it’s less work and you do bring valid points (all of you have). But if DAZ only worked on a Unisex mesh to improve it in a way that we can achieve the same exact thing with less work, it would be the far superior figure to any Gender specific figure. But DAZ didn’t want to do that so they split the gender to achieve “gender specific” things.

Before BF2/V6 we saw how powerful Genesis can be. Male, female, child, monster, alien, etc. All in one mesh and not separate. That’s not even taking into account money saved by having to buy multiple clothings sets that are the same but for different genders, morphs and the like.

If DAZ had spent time and effort to improving Genesis, we’d be seeing all this stuff your posting Wowie and on a Unisex Mesh. The mere fact that Genesis itself was possible says right there that even more is possible with each new Generation of “Genesis” that could have been made if Genesis had been improved upon instead of splitting the gender, which is not an improvement. It’s two steps backwards.

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Genesis is head & shoulders above “Genesis 2” (or better known as BF2/BM2) and is the FAR superior figure. Why? It doesn’t suffer from the UN-necessary gender split

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Posted: 30 June 2013 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 512 ]
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I prefer this myself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTBBnc2SJ90

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Posted: 30 June 2013 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 513 ]
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Hellboy - 30 June 2013 10:41 PM

I prefer this myself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTBBnc2SJ90

Amen to that. smile

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Genesis is head & shoulders above “Genesis 2” (or better known as BF2/BM2) and is the FAR superior figure. Why? It doesn’t suffer from the UN-necessary gender split

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The Supersuit product comes with a Basic Supersuit. DAZ has finally fixed it’s UV’s. Re-Download now to receive the update. Thanks DAZ! smile

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Posted: 30 June 2013 10:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 514 ]
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Knight22179 - 30 June 2013 10:30 AM

Yes, the post I replied to that has your quote. wink

No figure is going to have what you want. Every figure is going to have problems regardless if it’s well behaved in certain areas or not.

And I don’t think your making your point about a gender specific base being preferable. So far, I remain unconvinced. A Unisex mesh can accomplish the same thing, especially if enough research and time is put into it before releasing it to the public for use (which should have been Genesis 2). There is no doubt in my mind a Unisex mesh can perform just as well as single gender mesh which your advocating if DAZ bothered to research ways to accomplish everything you prefer. I see no evidence to the contrary.

It is your prerogative to remain unconvinced. If Genesis works better for you, then stick to it.

Looking back at my posts, I still believe I haven’t written anything about perfection, or perfect figures or whatever. I simply want a well behaved figure, along with well behaved shapes and morphs. Well behaved in the sense that they take into account the figure base shape both unposed and posed.

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Posted: 30 June 2013 11:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 515 ]
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wowie - 30 June 2013 10:53 PM

It is your prerogative to remain unconvinced. If Genesis works better for you, then stick to it.

Looking back at my posts, I still believe I haven’t written anything about perfection, or perfect figures or whatever. I simply want a well behaved figure, along with well behaved shapes and morphs. Well behaved in the sense that they take into account the figure base shape both unposed and posed.

I will be sticking with Genesis(the original) for the time being…I’m yet to be convinced that it wasn’t possible to keep it a unisex figure and keep improving it.

However…I’m not having a go at anyone else. Everyone has a right to their opinions and if Gen2F works for you that is great.

After glimpsing the possibilities with Genesis(the original) I’m not willing to settle for less. I want a unisex figure that I can morph into anything and I’m happy to stick with the original figure until something better comes along.

Maybe I’m one of a few maybe I’m one of many. I don’t really care…my only concern is it doesn’t suit me.
I’m very deeply disappointed in DAZ 3d’s choice to not provide more information at the time of the launch. If there has been too much speculation that has been primarily because people were uninformed about what was happening. DAZ 3D could have minimised this by keeping people in the loop instead of treating us like mushrooms.

 

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Posted: 01 July 2013 12:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 516 ]
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Hellboy - 30 June 2013 10:41 PM

I prefer this myself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTBBnc2SJ90

...thank you.

I rest my case.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 01:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 517 ]
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...crap city, 3dopencommunity keeps returning a “Server Not Found” error (which almost caused me to take a hammer to my USB wireless modem).  This is double plus ungood.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 518 ]
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Argh. I don’t want to like her, but so far everything I’ve thrown at her comes out ok, even the Supersuit.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 02:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 519 ]
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wowie - 30 June 2013 10:16 PM

Let’s see the figure with (first) and without (second) the crease point correction, in the default/zero position and compared

This is the point I’m making. The figure retains the same weight mapping, the same correction, but the problematic shape needs to be corrected. In other words, shape (FBMs) or morphs (PBMs) should not alter crease points or cause mesh collision problems. To do this, it is necessary to shape it so it accounts for the way the figure is rigged (thus bends).

As Male-M3dia pointed out, having a gender specific base can help (along with better weight mapping and mesh topology).

...so why does it have to be gender specific?  Why cant the standard Genesis figure have the improved bending?

Why? because it doesn’t promote the need for gender specific content.

This along with the added polys for “improved” breast mesh handling could be provided with the base unisex version

It’s all marketing. Make us pay more for less.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 520 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 01 July 2013 02:53 AM

...so why does it have to be gender specific?  Why cant the standard Genesis figure have the improved bending?

Why? because it doesn’t promote the need for gender specific content.

This along with the added polys for “improved” breast mesh handling could be provided with the base unisex version

It’s all marketing. Make us pay more for less.

To be fair, Male M3dia’s post was a very convincing argument for Genesis 2’s case. Out of my own curiosity I went and checked on the various JCM’s he referred to, and he wasn’t kidding. There are a huge number of corrective morphs on a lot of different parts of the figure when it comes to Genesis in order to achieve the unisex results.

Now I’m not saying for a second that I necessarily agree with the sex division, but in terms of content, it would probably be a lot faster to develop for the new figure than it would be to create the same items on Genesis 1. From a publisher’s point of view, it makes perfect sense to have the split, which might arguably give us a greater variety of content than we’d had for previous the previous Genesis.

I know this is like trying to douse a bonfire with a thimble, but I think we should give it time and see how things progress. As evidenced, there is still content being released for the original Genesis, so we’re not losing out yet. There may come a time in the future when support dies out, but perhaps by then we may have been sold on the new figures. We simply don’t know what’s being planned for them, and what might be waiting in the wings.

I won’t say I’m in full support of the new Genesis, but I’ve been following the arguments for and against quite closely. I’ve tested and retested Genesis and Genesis 2 to support these bold claims, and I can see that it does actually have potential. Yes, I lament the loss of dozens of useful morphs and yes I miss being able to age my figures dynamically, but if the momentum holds then the ‘Genesis 2’ range of figures could become our ‘go-to’ figures.

For me, this hingest highly on how they handle ‘Basic child’, or even IF they include it, but also how well the figure is provided for by PA’s. It’s my hope that we won’t need to see a dozen new UV sets for ‘Genesis 2’ and that the content has a good range rather than being dominated by sexy stripperware. If early indications are anything to go by though, I don’t think we need worry about the latter.

...still waiting on an official response to say “Hey, we haven’t forgotten about the kids!”.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 521 ]
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wowie - 30 June 2013 10:35 PM
Kattey - 30 June 2013 09:32 AM

Having properly weighted map will help a lot but the trick is that this properly weighted map in G2F that some people might praise so much for its gender-specificness isn’t actually gender specific weightmap, it is unisex. It appears as gender-specific because default shape sculpt is a female but this is smoke and mirrors. By transferring Genesis male morphs/shape sculpts back and forth (only main morphs, not JCMs) I get a male who is very much the same male I had in Genesis (with all JCMs), bends being better and all thanks to _generic_ improved weightmaps G2F has, but still very much and very noticeably male without an influence of supposed ‘female’ rigging.
There is nothing in G2F’s rigging that is gender-specific so the idea that female figure somehow has better “female” rigging is not true. General rigging improvement? - yes. Gender-specific rigging improvement? - no and G2F with the same rigging it has now could have been as easily made with default unisex sculpt shape, and two sets of morphs in areas where fat distribution is different.

Male-M3dia made a good point about topology. Look at my posts above. The weight map is only one part of the equation. You also need the correct mesh topology. From my example, you can see the V5 shape altered the crease point.  So it was the shape that’s causing the issue. Putting in correction to the shape so the topology works better with the bending is the solution.

First of all, in your pictures I don’t see the need for correction. As human body can be very different, I don’t personally believe in ‘ideal’ bends and shapes - my own knees don’t bend exactly like corrected knees in your pictures and thus even corrected bends look no less (un)realistic personally to me than uncorrected ones.

But lets imagine that any drastic shape needs to have better, corrected bends. Why do you think you will avoid doing this with G2F? If tech behind the rigging didn’t change, any drastic shape in G2F will require corrections to make better bends, - and considering that the difference between default Genesis shape and V5 is a smaller difference than the difference between G2F and its own Heavy morph, meshflow-wise, you’ll have to do no fewer corrections than in Genesis. Just having gender-specific initial figure won’t eliminate the need in corrections or lessen their amount when mesh is altered so much as in Heavy morph or you need a such precision like in your V5 example.

In case if tech is improved up to point that rigging and weightmaps autoadjusts itself to meshflow (I don’t think we are there yet), again, the Genesis 2 should have been unisex figure, because the difference between male and female shapes isn’t all that drastic as the difference between G2F and its own Heavy morph, so technically if this technology exist than nothing would prevent Genesis 2 from being unisex in this case.
So what the point of default female shape again? You either do corrections for any change of shape anyway with current level of technology, or unisex figure would have autocorrected bends if technology is improved that much, or, in case if G2F rigging is so good right now it doesn’t need JCMs to correct bends on Heavy morph (which doesn’t have any joint corrections last time I’ve checked), you can use it on unisex shape as it is because the difference in meshflow between unisex and G2F shape is a smaller difference than meshflow difference between G2F shape and Heavy G2F shape.

Also look at those pictures.
First is a default female G2F shape bend, posed like on your pictures. When compared its underknee bend crease to your corrected V5 bend crease (from post #507), it doesn’t look the same and it looks more like a bend from post #506, which I presume wasn’t corrected as much.
Second picture is same G2F with OriginalGenesis shape (unisex one) unlocked, and from what I see the underknee bend is closer on it to V5 bend you did with D-Formers in #507, which I presume is more correct from your point of view.

So why default G2F underknee ‘gender-specific’ bend considered to be better than original Genesis bend and not to be corrected? From what I see from pictures you posted, you will have to correct G2F default bends anyway if V5 underknee bend crease from post #507 is of any indication of better bends you want to have, because it isn’t any near this sharper shape.

G2F still has a lot of hidden correction stuff, only they aren’t JCMs as much as CTRL properties (basically, scaling and pushing).

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Posted: 01 July 2013 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 522 ]
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Well inside crease is much better in the second image. I’m guessing, and I could be wrong.. that there might be a general softening in the general shapes vs the Vx shapes to give the Vx shapes a market.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 523 ]
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Gedd - 01 July 2013 08:13 AM

Well inside crease is much better in the second image. I’m guessing, and I could be wrong.. that there might be a general softening in the general shapes vs the Vx shapes to give the Vx shapes a market.

Just to be clear: second image is a unisex OriginalGenesis shape (unlocked, not transferred) with G2F rigging. First is default G2F female shape.

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Posted: 01 July 2013 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 524 ]
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On a separate note…. any software company has a similar approach in that they come out with a version, come up with a series of patches, add-ons, etc… and eventually roll many of (not all) those into a new version/starting point. That is how they pay the bills. They aren’t going to survive just updating the previous version beyond a certain point. This does have the advantage of giving a new starting point.

The one challenging thing here is the fundamental change of vision in the ‘Genesis’ concept and hopefully, through this dialog that’s been going on in the forums, DAZ might consider two separate paths, one with optimized figures, and another with a generic base. You are right about Heavy vs light being a drastic difference also, perhaps even greater then the gender issue. That was why Freak had his own base figure. There should be a base figure for Heavy also.

Whatever route DAZ takes, some people will be disappointed as there are always tradeoffs. Having two lines does create a content issue even more then the current direction they seem to be headed in that some content would be made for base figures, some for the generic base. I think this would be good in the long run, but people who had the generic figure as their focus would probably complain at how their clothing didn’t work as well as clothing made for specific bases and how, well you see how this could go….

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Posted: 01 July 2013 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 525 ]
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Kattey - 01 July 2013 08:18 AM
Gedd - 01 July 2013 08:13 AM

Well inside crease is much better in the second image. I’m guessing, and I could be wrong.. that there might be a general softening in the general shapes vs the Vx shapes to give the Vx shapes a market.

Just to be clear: second image is a unisex OriginalGenesis shape (unlocked, not transferred) with G2F rigging. First is default G2F female shape.

Well at that level of bend, I have to agree either way the second one is better.

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