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A Question about shades of life - nature
Posted: 04 June 2013 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]
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This looks very interesting….but can it be used with animated scenes or figures?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I don’t see why not, it’s ‘just’ a shader after all, so it’ll depend what settings you use on each prop/model etc

Not an animation of course, but just had to throw some primitives in with default Genesis and applied using the default DT-Projection (I should’ve used one of the soil options underfoot instead of grass, but it’s my first test)...

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Posted: 04 June 2013 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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But if the Genesis figure lowers its arms, do the diagonal lines in the texture follow the arms, or will they keep running in the same direction?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Probably via the ubersurface option and tiling each mat zone to give you the look you want.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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The shader is linked to the camera in regards to it’s texture location, so moving objects or moving the camera in animation will make it look like the texture is moving (zooming the camera in shouldn’t change anything).  It can be a limitation but it can be used for some cool stuff too, were you to make a heavily displaced rock golem and move him around it would animate the rubble and make it dynamic.

This is a test I did during production, before I removed the Z axis from texture projection (why zooming doesn’t change anything).  Here I’m getting the effect rotating around the figure which doesn’t happen anymore, but it would look pretty close to the same if I were moving the camera to the left with the character parented.

http://3dimensiondigital.com/dyngal/vidloops/projection/PTAR.htm

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Posted: 04 June 2013 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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AndYourLittleDogToo - 04 June 2013 10:56 AM

But if the Genesis figure lowers its arms, do the diagonal lines in the texture follow the arms, or will they keep running in the same direction?

The simple way to think of it is to use a slide projector and a man in a white suit as an analogy.  If you have the man in white stand in front of a white screen and project an image onto both of them, the textures in the image will appear to wrap around the man’s shape and then continue on the screen behind him.  However, if the man moves his arms, the projected textures will remain fixed in place relative to the background, so they will appear to slide around and up and down the arms as he moves. (And needless to say, that same sliding motion will occur even if you replace the white background with a black one, which is the closest quick equivalent I could think of for projecting the image on just the figure and not the rest of a scene.)  If you look at the product illustrations where more than one item has the same texture applied, you can see that all lines and textures in the projected image on the figures follow in the same basic pattern as the background figure.  Great for blending two separate figures into a single one, as DT suggests, but not for animation under most circumstances.

Now, I say MOST because what ISN’T clear is how tightly the project surface is locked to a specific plane and perspective.  If one can lock them selectively, this technique could come in VERY handy is in projecting images onto set of primitives that roughly approximate the contours of the original image to create quick virtual sets, so that 3D figure could “stand on” or “touch” items in the original image plate, or a slight pan or dolly effect, with perspective shifts, could be introduced on what was originally a flat image.  (In Visual Effects terns, this is called a 2.5D matte painting, and being able to do one inside DAZ.Studio would be pretty snazzy.)   

 

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Posted: 04 June 2013 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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DimensionTheory - 04 June 2013 01:05 PM

The shader is linked to the camera in regards to it’s texture location, so moving objects or moving the camera in animation will make it look like the texture is moving (zooming the camera in shouldn’t change anything).  It can be a limitation but it can be used for some cool stuff too, were you to make a heavily displaced rock golem and move him around it would animate the rubble and make it dynamic.

This is a test I did during production, before I removed the Z axis from texture projection (why zooming doesn’t change anything).  Here I’m getting the effect rotating around the figure which doesn’t happen anymore, but it would look pretty close to the same if I were moving the camera to the left with the character parented.

http://3dimensiondigital.com/dyngal/vidloops/projection/PTAR.htm

Cool.  I finished my previous post explaining it only to find that you’d actually shown it.  wink

That said, can you comment on my thought about using it for 2.5D? It looks like building a virtual set out of primitives would work as long as there was no Left-right/up-down camera movement, but is there a way to “lock” the direction that the projection is theoretically coming from in order to do a slight repositioning of the image?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Cybersox13 - 04 June 2013 01:14 PM

If you look at the product illustrations where more than one item has the same texture applied, you can see that all lines and textures in the projected image on the figures follow in the same basic pattern as the background figure.

The settings between materials that blend together in the promos I’ve done need to have the same settings for that to work (not just the same texture).  Were you to use different tiling, diffuse color or translation settings etc for objects with the same texture they won’t blend together.

I’d thought about the idea of clamping and I’m not sure it’s possible (unless it’s just over my head which could be).  It’s something I would have liked to have a switch for best case scenario.  I’ll certainly keep it in mind thought because it’s an effect I’d like as well.  There may be other ways to do what you want too, setting the shader up to work with Shader Baker would mean you could export the textures to UV but that wouldn’t be so dynamic.

Cybersox13 - 04 June 2013 01:14 PM

That said, can you comment on my thought about using it for 2.5D? It looks like building a virtual set out of primitives would work as long as there was no Left-right/up-down camera movement, but is there a way to “lock” the direction that the projection is theoretically coming from in order to do a slight repositioning of the image?

I’m not quite able to picture the setup you have in mind with the 2.5D, what would be getting animated in that situation?  DAZ Studio seems to be able to animate certain shader values (though confusingly), if you were able to freely keyframe the values used for the texture’s translation you should be able to compensate for any camera movement.  Moving the camera up/right/left/down would just need opposite movement in the shader, rotation around an object should even be possible with X and Y making the image plane parallel but I’m not sure what that would look like detail wise.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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DimensionTheory - 04 June 2013 01:41 PM
Cybersox13 - 04 June 2013 01:14 PM

If you look at the product illustrations where more than one item has the same texture applied, you can see that all lines and textures in the projected image on the figures follow in the same basic pattern as the background figure.

The settings between materials that blend together in the promos I’ve done need to have the same settings for that to work (not just the same texture).  Were you to use different tiling, diffuse color or translation settings etc for objects with the same texture they won’t blend together.

I’d thought about the idea of clamping and I’m not sure it’s possible (unless it’s just over my head which could be).  It’s something I would have liked to have a switch for best case scenario.  I’ll certainly keep it in mind thought because it’s an effect I’d like as well.  There may be other ways to do what you want too, setting the shader up to work with Shader Baker would mean you could export the textures to UV but that wouldn’t be so dynamic.

Well, it can all be done pretty easily in AfterEffects, and to a certain extent a lot of it can be done with billboards.  However, there are certain advantages to doing it in studio, the biggest of which would be that you could set up primitives in the shape of an object in the image plate, animate your figure interacting with it, then go back and re-run the pass with the shader replaced with a base white or neutral shade.  Presto, a perfectly mapped shadow pass to add in AE.  Or one could could take a completely two dimension image like a painting or still photo, and add a 3d door that a character could open and walk through, or introduce a subtle perspective shift to it as the camera dollies in, all in one pass..

DimensionTheory - 04 June 2013 01:41 PM
Cybersox13 - 04 June 2013 01:14 PM

That said, can you comment on my thought about using it for 2.5D? It looks like building a virtual set out of primitives would work as long as there was no Left-right/up-down camera movement, but is there a way to “lock” the direction that the projection is theoretically coming from in order to do a slight repositioning of the image?

I’m not quite able to picture the setup you have in mind with the 2.5D, what would be getting animated in that situation?  DAZ Studio seems to be able to animate certain shader values (though confusingly), if you were able to freely keyframe the values used for the texture’s translation you should be able to compensate for any camera movement.  Moving the camera up/right/left/down would just need opposite movement in the shader, rotation around an object should even be possible with X and Y making the image plane parallel but I’m not sure what that would look like detail wise.

Ouch.  Sounds like something that would be easier to do in a program that has motion tracking… What I was thinking of was doing something similar to this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xSvdbcEWr8  but with far less extreme camera moves. Maybe a shift of ten-fifteen degrees laterally or vertically.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Yeah that example is basically what I would want clamping for myself, and I believe that baking would handle that pretty well (his textures are obviously baked since they’re showing in 3D view as he rotates).  I’d imagine this being hard to pull off because of other limitations though, there’d be no way to see how the image lines up onto your mesh outside of rendering.  Placement of your primitives would involve a whole lot of test rendering without a guide in 3D view.  It’s pretty far out of scope for what I wanted this particular product to be (it’s a set of shaders at it’s core which was originally intended just for UberSurface).  I very much would like to get something going like you show but it will take a lot of time in a different direction.  My interest comes from wanting to mask out parts of my HDRI panoramas so that trees etc cast accurate shadows and objects can pass behind them.

Let me put together a few clips showing how the translation and animation stuff actually behaves so it’s obvious what’s going on.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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I get the general idea of projection mapping and how it ignores the UV map, but the promo examples show the texture (including displacement) wrapping around the curves of the surface, rather than smearing across them. How is it doing that? Will it work with shadows and ambient occlusion?

(It is extremely cool—I’m a bit overspent at the moment, though….)

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Posted: 04 June 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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zigraphix - 04 June 2013 03:33 PM

I get the general idea of projection mapping and how it ignores the UV map, but the promo examples show the texture (including displacement) wrapping around the curves of the surface, rather than smearing across them. How is it doing that? Will it work with shadows and ambient occlusion?

(It is extremely cool—I’m a bit overspent at the moment, though….)

Thank you!

The textures are coming from the camera, but things like displacement and bump still rely on the surface geometry for their direction.  So it’s not displacing towards the camera, it’s getting displaced along the surface normals like normally mapped textures would be.  It does work fine with shadows and AO as well, this along with specular etc is part of what keeps it taking the shape of geometry rather than just showing up as an image overlay.

This should show that pretty well…

http://3dimensiondigital.com/dyngal/vidloops/projection/PTBR.htm

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Does it show correctly in reflections?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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DimensionTheory - 04 June 2013 03:45 PM

The textures are coming from the camera, but things like displacement and bump still rely on the surface geometry for their direction.  So it’s not displacing towards the camera, it’s getting displaced along the surface normals like normally mapped textures would be.  It does work fine with shadows and AO as well, this along with specular etc is part of what keeps it taking the shape of geometry rather than just showing up as an image overlay.

That’s a point of interest.

Under verifications, it looks being very usefull for animating some visual atmospheric fakes, like clouds moves simulation, as well.
(As I can’t afford After Effects CS6, I use generally my antediluvian VUE 7.4 to do that, at the price of nerves breaking HUGE render times). 

So my question is:

—> Is there a way to add custom textures to the 107 ones you provide with the shader ?

( I’m far from having got yet comfortable with your SSS tool, so I beg your mercy, please more than one single week long delay between new shaders! LoL)

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Richard Haseltine - 04 June 2013 04:18 PM

Does it show correctly in reflections?

Good question, Richard.  Here is a render showing how it behaves, the image is projected from the front and also projects to the back of the sphere.  The sides of the sphere are banded however as the projection is hitting surfaces at an angle there.  Hopefully this is understandable, having it project from each direction to cover bands would be nice but I’m not sure how I’d go about it.

LocusSolus - 04 June 2013 04:18 PM

—> Is there a way to add custom textures to the 107 ones you provide with the shader ?

Yes of course, there is a blank base shader included along with the texture presets that’s basically the same as loading UberSurface.  It has no preloaded textures and values are default to give you a common starting point for adding your own stuff.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Well, I thought I was done asking questions for now, but after reading Richard’s another just popped into my head:

Just to be sure, you CAN use more than one variation of this shader in the same scene, right?  That is, use a rock texture on prop A and a leafy green vegetable texture on the a separate shader.  I couldn’t help but notice that there aren’t any obvious images where this is done in the samples.

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