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Posted: 25 May 2013 04:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Having spent more than a few years in forums dedicated to gaming and modding in years past,  this forum is a kinder, gentler,  more relaxed environment.  Let’s keep it that way. There is a good sense of community and creativity.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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linvanchene - 25 May 2013 03:57 AM

... I feel like somewhere decisions are being made but whatever happens on the forum does not seem to have any effect on it. sick...

Ok, so perhaps this is the heart of the issue. After all of that discussion, the real question is, what were you hoping to get out of the forums. If it is to discuss technical and/or artistic points about using the various products much of what was being discussed wouldn’t make sense. But in light of this comment, it appears to indicate a desire to effect DAZ’s decision making process and a feeling of ineffectiveness in being able to do that through the forums. If that is the case, I understand. I think many here would hope to have some amount of effect considering we invest much in DAZ either in time, money, or both. The reality as I see it is that posting on those issues are fundamentally different and should be considered and kept separate from artistic and technical discussions. We need to separate our mental space for those two very different types of discussions.

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Just because I may have a strong opinion doesn’t make it any more (or less) correct than any other, just that I feel passionately a particular way at that moment.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I haven’t read all the posts made so far, so what I have to say might have been mentioned already.  I will state now I can be quite opinionated, and at times crass, I apologize in advance if my wording offends anyone, being blunt can have it’s drawbacks.

First off I will tell you I have been a member of Daz since 2003 or 2004, but did not actually start to use the program for at least another year.  I am mostly self taught, though did find a wonderful group that helped me with the things I didn’t know.  I am the kind of person who learns by actually doing, not by reading or listening to someone else, so I experiment and hope I don’t break anything.

Being new or an old hat does not guarantee someone’s level of ability.  What I learned to do in three years, my son learned to do in less then a week and then surpassed me in what could be done with the program.  How much money one’ spends does not guarantee how much experience they have.  Just because someone bought something does not mean they use it and as such does not have the knowledge to tell others how to use it.  For the record, I do not want others knowing how much I spend anywhere, that is my business, it’s personal and therefore private, not for public knowledge.  Badges are just another way of infringing on that personal and private information.

There are some amazing artists here, they win contests all the time.  For someone like me, it’s difficult to enter contests against such talented people, I don’t stand a chance of winning, as I am nowhere near their level.  Badge are just a way of flaunting that fact.  If I was that talented and someone new wanted help to improve, flaunting badges in their face won’t do it,helping them learn the program is what will improve their skills, encouraging them brings the artist in them to the forefront.

As for the attitude of some when another asks for help, that changes every day.  I know one moderator here who is 50/50 with help and attitude.  One day he is a shining example of those who give their all to help someone learn and on other days, rudeness is all he dishes out, I believe from lack of patience most likely from something that might have gone wrong that day and the newbie got the backlash from it.

One thing I have noticed, not just at Daz, but also other sites as well, are those who are very good artists, both in creating images or animations, and those who create the props and such everyone uses, seem to be unwilling to help because (in my opinion) don’t want the competition..  Unfortunately, this seems to happen far too often.  I, personally, rarely come across this type of thing, however I have been hearing many speak of it on all sites.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 05:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Gedd - 25 May 2013 04:09 AM
linvanchene - 25 May 2013 03:57 AM

... I feel like somewhere decisions are being made but whatever happens on the forum does not seem to have any effect on it. sick...

Ok, so perhaps this is the heart of the issue. After all of that discussion, the real question is, what were you hoping to get out of the forums. If it is to discuss technical and/or artistic points about using the various products much of what was being discussed wouldn’t make sense. But in light of this comment, it appears to indicate a desire to effect DAZ’s decision making process and a feeling of ineffectiveness in being able to do that through the forums. If that is the case, I understand. I think many here would hope to have some amount of effect considering we invest much in DAZ either in time, money, or both. The reality as I see it is that posting on those issues are fundamentally different and should be considered and kept separate from artistic and technical discussions. We need to separate our mental space for those two very different types of discussions.


If this is indeed what the OP is getting at then it might be worth pointing out that DAZ is a business, and not a democracy. As a business it will have future plans and roadmaps which will be commercial in confidence and not for general discusion. It is not realistic for forum members to expect to be able to change those plans on the basis of ‘what we want today’ decided by a majority. Having said that I am sure that DAZ welcome feedback, and if you suggest something which is doable within those existing futute plans, then you might get your wish. Of course this is my opinion and not ‘fact’ .

I am a member of another forum, for model railways, where there is an annual poll on ‘what the people want’ the results of this are considered by the manufacturers ( and yes they acknowledge that they are influenced by it ). The poll winners are often very strange choices, and I suspect are the result of competing pressure groups. This can result in manufacturers putting a lot of resources into designing and producing new models, which then don’t sell well. ( based on the numbers of unsold models being offered at rediuced prices ).

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Posted: 25 May 2013 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Posted: 25 May 2013 06:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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linvanchene - 25 May 2013 05:58 AM

There does not really seem to be any alternative to DAZ figures.

There are quite a few alternatives if you go out on the web and look.  All those places I mentioned are DAZ’s competitors plus there are innumerable freebie sites with decent quality models.  DAZ is only one player in the 3D market ... but we wuvz our DAZ ‘cuz dey be kewl. :D

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Posted: 25 May 2013 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Just a side note. I am a hacker, but in the original sense of the word. The term hacker got appropriated and used to refer to illegal activities. This is not the original definition of the word. Hackers originally were people who went outside the normal confines of an environment to get something to work. To hack something meant to think creatively in problem solving something that by the defined rules was not available. Hackers extended the functionality of the environment they worked in, but did so in ways that were sometimes quick and dirty rather then refined or ‘official.’ A good hack was something that was very useful and did it’s job without negative side effects. So please keep in mind there are many ways to take offense. I don’t take offense when people use the term hacker in this misappropriated way, but it is somewhat frustrating. I know you meant no offense to people who consider themselves true hackers in the original sense carola.

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Just because I may have a strong opinion doesn’t make it any more (or less) correct than any other, just that I feel passionately a particular way at that moment.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Sorry Gedd, I must admit that I have only heard of the bad kind of hackers *hugs and offer cake as gift*

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Posted: 25 May 2013 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Thank you smile

My main point is, it’s sometimes good to assume someone didn’t necessarily mean an offense as what any of us may be thinking when we say something may not be what others hear, and vice versa.

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Just because I may have a strong opinion doesn’t make it any more (or less) correct than any other, just that I feel passionately a particular way at that moment.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Perhaps it might be best if everyone keeps in mind one tidbit: Nobody taking part in the conversation (so far) actually speaks for DAZ3D, and thus every post - including this one - has an implied “In My Opinion” at its start.

(Come to think of it, I rarely see anyone who speaks for DAZ3D take part on these forums. Which I think is odd - they’ve spent a lot of money setting up this communications channel and spend more keeping it running, yet they appear to be ignoring it. But that’s beside the point.)

Badges: I find the idea of identifying people who spend a large amount of money to be an odd one, for three reasons. First, it might run afoul of Canadian privacy laws (I am not a lawyer), which if true would make it difficult for DAZ3D to do business with Canadians (I am a Canadian). Second, there’s more than one online vendor out there, and the site where one spends the majority of one’s 3d-art budget might not be this site (especially if one buys models from TurboSquid). Third, there is a noticeable community of people here who prefer to make, distribute, and use legally-free resources - one can have literally thousands of high-quality items in one’s runtime without spending a cent.

The “spiral of silence:” If I have an opinion, I’ll voice it. I’m odd that way, I know, but it’s the only way to break that spiral.

Alternatives to DAZ figures: There are some, but they aren’t often used in Daz Studio - take a look on the various Poser and Blender forums if you want to see a larger variety of characters that aren’t sold by DAZ3D. That said, I suspect Victoria 4 is probably the most popular figure out there for Daz Studio, Poser, or Blender.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Put simply, the amount of money I have or have not spent here or at any other site is my own personal business.  If DAZ were to offer badges, I would politely decline them and if they posted them publicly, I would politely ask they be removed as that is an invasion of my privacy. 

As for the number of forum posts, who cares anymore?  As soon as DAZ implemented the new software, previous post counts went out the window and everyone was back to zero. 

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Posted: 25 May 2013 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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background - 25 May 2013 05:04 AM

I am a member of another forum, for model railways, where there is an annual poll on ‘what the people want’ the results of this are considered by the manufacturers ( and yes they acknowledge that they are influenced by it ). The poll winners are often very strange choices, and I suspect are the result of competing pressure groups. This can result in manufacturers putting a lot of resources into designing and producing new models, which then don’t sell well. ( based on the numbers of unsold models being offered at rediuced prices ).

We’re all pretty aware of this principle as PA’s, I think.  This is why you can request certain types of outfits until you’re blue in the face and they won’t get made, because the difficulty tends to outweigh the reward.  It’s also why scantier clothing gets made despite threads like the “too much skimpwear” one (there’s a very large silent majority of buyers that disagree).


It’s less an issue with Genesis because making clothes for it is easier than it was for Gen 4, but it’s a factor that’s still there.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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linvanchene - 24 May 2013 10:37 AM

Is it time for some meta communication on the state of the communication on the DAZ forums?

  Nope.   

- - -

Well you deceide by either ignoring, or answering or bashing or trolling.

  Okay.   

- - -

I often post when I am under the impression that only one opinion is dominating a discussion.

In many cases it might be helpful to look at things also from another perspective.

 

  Good. Looking forward to seeing your post count climb then too! grin   

- - -

The observation that the opinion of the majority of forum users is not equal the opinion of the whole user group is not a new one.

Especially online game developers had to find this out the hard way when they only listened to the complaints of forum users when making their decision. Suddenly they faced more angry e-mail from their regular customers who did not frequent the forums.

 

  Of course not. The opinion of the majority of forum users would only be that of the majority of forum users. The opinions would undoubtedly be more inclusive of the entire user base if it were also run in Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Mexican, etc as many people around the world have a copy of D/S.   

- - -

Instead of just relying on forum opinion what could be done is sending out e-mails that ask the whole user group to participate in polls.

Oh, have they fixed the polls?! Emails ... well now, reading through various posts would indicate that already many people who want to receive the newsletters etc are not [various reasons including ISPs and which servers are sending], such a mailing would not likely reach everybody [and again, not likely to be in Russian, German, French, Italian, Mexican, Spanish, etc]   

From that point of view making polls in the forum is also not very helpfull because only those people on the forum actually read those polls.

Polls?! hmmm ... I must have missed a thread somewhere ...   

The question that popped up in my mind quite often lately is:

How is DAZ actually gathering information what their user base wants?

Are they reading forum posts and actualy acting on them? Or are they sending out e-mails and asking customers for their opinion?

Or are all decisions made on sales statistics?

  hehehehe ... oh boy.  For starters it would appear that yes they are reading through but possibly just not answering threads as often enough over time, products being sought and not found just “magically appear” in the store a few months down the road.  Exceptions being the millennium cow [there’s got to be story about this we haven’t heard!]
All decisions [going by communiques I’ve received] are not being made by sales although those obviously would play a big part. But why is what popular ... food for thought.

- - -


The spiral of silence

“. Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation. The assessment of ones social environment may not always be correct with reality”

Source and addtional information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence

In all the time I have spent in the Daz3d forums, I cannot say that I have ever noticed this as a problem. Posts are not made because of software glitches and people give up. Posts are hidden/removed/whatever for a variety of reasons. 

- - -

What do you think about the Spiral of Silence? Can it be found on the DAZ forum?

Are there a dominating few forum posters who have gathered forum posts in the 1000s who jump into every discussion advertising their point of view?

  Sure. And if it wasn’t for those few ... and the commenting volunteers ... this place would be ‘dead’. As was stated by many people quite awhile ago, they have left the forums and possibly the store and moved on. Some of the software glitches were ‘too much’. So let’s not try to anger those who are still here and posting or you’re going to find yourself very alone possibly with a volunteer or two. If you don’t want to read mine, or anybody else’s “opinions” there’s this neat forum device called an ‘ignore member’ button. Use it.   

Are new users who only have a 1-30 posts taken serious?

  Usually. For starters, “new users” doesn’t necessarily mean new to 3D ... just means that they haven’t posted much since the new forum software was rolled out. Now on days/nights of known practices for drinking too much, it is wise to take some posts with the entire shaker of salt.  And of course there is the occasional spammer. “Unwise” to click on links in any of those posts, just report them. Mods do an excellent job keeping the boards clean. 

 

Are there any customers who just read on the forums and are actually afraid to post because they fear they will just get shred to pieces when they speak up against the opinion of those who have a post count of thousands and more?

 

Well, I have heard that there are people who won’t cross the road because they might get hit by a car ... but really. We have traffic signs and most cars do stop. Those little catch phrases like “noobie here, how do I ...” usually work. The only posters that I for one have had issues with, are those asking us to do illegal things, they themselves really not caring what happens to anybody but themselves. [like a kid asking an adult to buy them ciggies in the corner store, okay.] Perspective. It’s good to have. 

The counter proposal -

Introduce optional (!) forum medals that reflect the amount of dollars spent at the DAZ store

 

Absolutely not a good idea. Corporate purchasers vs hobby purchasers vs gamers vs adult entertainment vs creators vs schools vs [etc] ... the dollars would not mean a thing. 

Lets assume that posts of people who have a higher post count are actually considered more vailid and important that the posts of users with only a lower post count.

You sure you’ve read through the forums?! Even a fool can be thought wise when he says nothing. 

This may not even happen on a conscious level but maybe unconscious as people always tend to look up to others with more experience.

 

Well hopefully as you get older, you’ll get wiser. Post count has nothing to do with anything other than somebody took the time to try to assist another ... or pass the time waiting for doomsday replying in threads plausibly entertaining the masses while they wait for their renders to complete. 


If DAZ is a business should it not be the opinion of those users who spend the most money in the store that should count the most?

  Well I wouldn’t. Can’t take opinions to the bank. Contracts yes. 

In console games you can get trophies or achievments.

Would it not be a fun idea to introduce such trophies based on the products people buy and money they spend?

  Well not in my opinion. I could see that turning ‘very ugly’ as people quarreled over the ensuing mess of details. And really, there are more important store/website issues requiring attention.

For every character bundle you buy you get a special character trophy that can be displayed below the forum avatar.

For every hundred dollar you spend in the DAZ store you get a bronze medal.
For every thousand dollar you spend you get a silver medal.
For every ten thousand dollars you spend you get a gold medal.
And yes there might also be that illusive platinum medal for those who spent 25000 dollars in the store?


A number is added before the medal to count the total amount.

The display of post count and medal display could be optional. The user might have the option to deceide if they are displayed or not.

Why does it matter to you how much money I spend in the store? Do you want to tell people how much you spend? Nobody stopping you. But as another mentioned, yes we have privacy laws and no you may not post everybody else’s. 

- - -

Medal count vs forum posts count and their interaction

Now it would be quite more fun to have a look at the forum again.

How many medals have those gathered who have 1000s of forum posts?

How many users with only 1-10 forum posts have gathered silver and gold medals?

Because they actually spend their time buying and using the content and have no time to post on the forum.


Now suddenly it would become more interesting to see if the money is were the mouth is.

Or how was that saying going?

The reasoning is flawed. Corporations have many people ... each with a job to do. There is no where written that one has to have spent a dime on any product in order to be a participating member in the Daz3d forums. I sure hope nobody reading through this thread ever thinks it matters to most of us answering questions as to how much money they’ve spent because it sure as blazes doesn’t. A question is a question and an answer is an answer. Doesn’t matter who is asking the question or who is giving the answer. 

- - -

What is the reason for this post:

People asume that they know what the majority opinion is and claim to speak for it.

People are taking rumors for facts and noone is correcting them.

 

  hehehehehe ... yeah right, not. 

New users with only a few posts are treated quite rude and not taken serious.

Users are attacked on a personal level as soon as all real arguments are presented.

 

In general, no. And if/when you EVER see such activity, remember there is a ‘report’ button ... right next to the ‘ignore’ button. 

Longtime users tell new users that this has been discussed allready and shut topics down.

 

Not possible. Only mods can shut topics down and as per TOS we can’t discuss that. However the general idea tends to be that the same question being asked by the same person doesn’t have to be in 5 different forum threads. 

Moderators and Administrators are voicing their personal opinions in discussions.

 

This is GOOD. They know LOTS. And we like to learn and/or make use of those wonderful scripts grin 

Posts are censored and deleted.

 

  Yeah, sad thing about the legal system eh. But think of it this way, if you were in a real physical store ... about what and for how long could you be “saying whatever you pleased” before they kicked you out too. 

Threads are locked before everything was discussed.

  With the wisdom of experience ... certain discussion topics just loop and end up solving nothing.

- - -

I have no solutions nor any serious suggestions how to deal with all this. This are just the things I am observing.


Update / Edit:

My main motivation is to raise awareness and maybe inspire some people to reflect on this topics and how they deal with them.

As so often was said in this forum: The decision how you act afterwards is yours.

- - -

A not so serious suggestion would be:

Give me a version of DS with all my open feature requests resolved and I can finally go back to rendering and might be less tempted to comment on random forum posts while searching around on the forum for solutions. smile

 

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Posted: 25 May 2013 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Polls aren’t permitted on the forum. The feature is suppose to be disabled.

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Posted: 25 May 2013 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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@icprncss

There are, actually, several people here who have their post counts from the old forum in their signatures, so they sure didn’t leave them behind.


As to the op’s statements, I fit with some of what he said.  For me, this post is going out on a very shaky limb.  For various reasons, I don’t post much even though I might want to.  What are some of those reasons?  Chronic illness, pain and extreme fatigue; learning difficulties associated with these heath issues; medication side effects; an introverted personality and having been condescended to or just plain ignored by certain posters.  This thread is a very good example of the op’s point about the majority opinion.  Many of those posting seem very confident that linvanchene is totally wrong with all of his suggestions.  I’m speaking up, in my quiet and unsure voice, as an example of the person who often feels like adding my opinion, but doesn’t because the issue seems to have already been defined and decided by people who post very often.  We are not all the same.  I do love those who are always helping and sharing their knowledge.  I would do the same if I were able to.

This was really hard to post.  I have no intention of singling anyone out or slamming anyone.  It is just meant as food for thought.

Oh, for the record, I do happen to agree with the majority of posters that the idea of trophies based on money spent isn’t for me.  How about that?  lol wink

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