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linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 617
edited November 2013 in The Commons

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  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,590
    edited December 1969

    I'm gonna post this before it even starts off. Please keep the conversation civil and directed at the OP's topic and not at each other

  • Proxima ShiningProxima Shining Posts: 1,001
    edited December 1969

    I don´t see any rudeness towards new members in the forums. If anything, longtime members are very helpful towards newbies and patiently answer the same questions over and over, I never encountered anyone who would just say "this has been discussed already, so shut up and go away".

    Those forum medals seem very strange to me. We don´t want to start being divided in groups according to how rich or poor we are, how much money we can afford to spend - do we? I don´t want to see here anything that would the wealthier automaticaly mark as "better people" and those who only spend a little as "poor suckers". Forum members I value the most are those who are friendly, helpful and share useful information with others. Whether their wallet is fat or slim does not matter to me.

    I don´t think anyone is oppressed here. Why should someone be afraid of people who have a larger number of posts? And why should those with more posts be blamed for the fact, that this person is afraid of them? Neither makes any sense to me.

  • backgroundbackground Posts: 45
    edited December 1969

    I think as far as moderators and admins posting their opinions, that's fine. They obviously are interested in the subject or they wouldn't be here, so their opinion is as valid, and worthwhile as anyone elses.

    So far as badges are concerned, the amount I have spent here would no doubt give me a big gold star, but it wouldn't mean I know more or less that the next person, only that I have bigger debts lol.

  • Carola OCarola O Posts: 1,685
    edited May 2013

    I can't, and won't, reply to all of the original thread. But I can, and will, reply to the part of new user :)

    As one of those new users, yesterday marked my first 30 days since installing Daz. I have during this time never felt that I was treated rudely or ignored, much rather the other way around. I have asked some of the most stupid questions at times but the other members have been helpful and patient with answering those questions and therefor helped me learn more.

    I have seen some hints at rudeness in some threads yes, but that has been equal new and old users to be honest. For example.. there have been those of the new users that has asked for help and when getting help has responded to it in a very rude and sometimes even aggressive way. And than there is those of the older users who sometimes act quite rude and so on. But as I see it this is the internet, and a forum, there will always be those that are rude and sometimes even aggressive.

    Personally, I have seen and left several forums due to the amount of rudeness, aggressivity and plain trashtalk that went on there. I am one of those persons that Rarely frequent a forum unless basically forced too, at this date there is a total of 4 forums I frequent. Of those four, this forum is one and only because of the amount of nice and helpful people that are found here.

    That is my experience and my opinions, I'm sure there is those that don't agree with either of it *smiles* but that's what makes us humans as well... that all of us are actually different people with different personalities :) Besides, we can all have a bad day once in a while too.. heaven knows I certainly do *laughs*

    /Carola

    Edit - actually going to make one small edit. There is ONCE during this month that I felt that I was being patronized. Seeing that I myself was in a bad mood that day, and that it could simply have been something so easy as a misscommunication due to not being able to express a tone of voice I preferred to leave that discussion. That episode has not even crossed my mind since than, up until now.. and it actually took me some time to even remember it :)

    Post edited by Carola O on
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    1) Post Count is not necessarily an indicator of whether someone is a newbie or an old hand. I've seen people with much older join dates and tiny post counts, and I've seen people with very recent join dates and huge post counts. Most people get this.

    2) How much a person spends is, in my opinion, a false indicator of how "good" a customer a they are. If someone shows up out of the blue and drops $500 on stonemason in one transaction, why should their opinions have more weight than someone who is scraping by with their PC membership, the weekly freebie, and 1-2 PC items each week? I guarantee you the PC member will have bought more products at the end of the year.

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    The important bit, in my opinion, is that DAZ knows who their best customers are and what they're buying. Both short-term and long-term. There's little or no reason that is in DAZ's benefit for them to share that information or make it obvious at a glance. Doing so could have significant undesirable results not the least of which is people, like me, who wouldn't WANT others to know how much (or little) I spend. It's my information. It's DAZ's too, but it's not public domain.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 617
    edited November 2013

    edited and removed by user

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    I'm gonna post this before it even starts off. Please keep the conversation civil and directed at the OP's topic and not at each other

    You are absolutely no fun at all and I'm gonna have to take you off my Christmas card list. Er, wait. I don't have one.:-P

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,368
    edited December 1969

    What is the reason for this post:

    People assume that they know what the majority opinion is and claim to speak for it.

    People are taking rumors for facts and noone is correcting them.

    New users with only a few posts are treated quite rude and not taken serious.

    Users are attacked on a personal level as soon as all real arguments are presented.

    Longtime users tell new users that this has been discussed already and shut topics down.

    Moderators and Administrators are voicing their personal opinions in discussions.

    Posts are censored and deleted.

    Threads are locked before everything was discussed.


    Perhaps I don't read quite the same posts as you do, but very rarely do I see any of the above. Often times, there are a lot of people willing to help new users, and I've never seen an occasion where they're talked down to. I don't see an issue with Mods and admins voicing an opinion either, since we are all perfectly entitled to make up our own minds, and they present their arguments in a very respectful manner. With that said I'm genuinely confused as to the purpose of this thread. I daresay it almost feels as though it's bait to lure in those very individuals your post mentions.

    However, if I may address some of the questions you asked. Firstly, I think the medal system would only further alienate some users from the forums, and widen the divide. The less well-off members would be seen as perpetual newbies regardless of their skill level, and none of the issues you raised would be addressed with it. Owning more products doesn't make your argument any more valid, unless it's a topic specifically on those products.

    I can't really emphasise that last line enough. There are a lot of people with differing opinions, and no one opinion is any less valid than any other. It's that very contrast which makes conversations and debates more interesting after all.

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Okay, my turn to bash and be utterly mean to trolls.:lol:

    There is no way I could agree less with the idea of showing how much one spends in the store. As has been pointed out, it's not an indicator of anything real. Post count and join date also don't have a whole lot of merit but all the forums I'm on have them so I guess they're a fact of life. OTOH, a machining forum I was on (until it went commercial) had what was called "karma." If a post was helpful, people could click on a little thingie over the poster's avatar which would add a karmic point to that person. This wasn't a popularity thing but rather an indicator of how helpful that person had been and it was cumulative. That way, it became clear after a while who to ask in case someone ran into a problem. (I wasn't real popular - I wasn't a "real" machinist, whatever that meant - but I had a good karmic count because I wrote a small but intense number of informational & instructional posts on electric motors, solenoids and the like.) I'm thinking that something of that order may be of benefit here.

    Or not.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 617
    edited November 2013

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    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    A real fast note here. This is NOT an online gaming community nor does it play one on TV. You're trying to mix apples and acorns and it just doesn't work. The folks here have an entirely different set of interests et al and the sort of "awards" you're pushing just ain't gonna cut it. With that, the mods et al here are volunteers in many cases as is true of a number of other 3D art-related forums I'm on. Again, this is an entirely different community that doesn't require having paid pros handling the majority of the forum topics & discussions. Apples & acorns.

  • backgroundbackground Posts: 45
    edited December 1969

    With only 8 people contrbuting 12 posts to the thread ( one of which was just a request for civil behaviour ) I don't see how you could argue that a there is any majority or minority opinion on badges at this stage. In the next hour a dozen people could come along and say they like your badge idea.
    If that doesn't happen it 'could' mean you are right and the current tiny majority in this thread who are against the idea, are imposing their will on everyone on the forum regarding badges, as nobody dares the speak out in favour. I find this very unlikely though.

  • Carola OCarola O Posts: 1,685
    edited December 1969

    ...On that note I am also curious to see if even one person will dare to speak up and say that "medals" might be a fun trophy to have below the avatar.

    No online game players here who love their titles, and achievment points who can see at the fun aspect of that proposition and look past the class dividing social aspect?

    At the moment the dominant opinion also seems to be that it is not a favorable idea.

    - - -

    You probably can now start to understand how this all comes together and how I tried to use the "medal" idea as a practical illustration how forum communication works.

    - - -

    Once the dominant opinion is raised everyone else just shuts up because they feel like it cannot be changed anymore anyway.

    So any one brave enough to say:

    I spend money in the DAZ store and want other people to see how much I spent.

    Spending money in the DAZ store is equal to supporting DAZ.

    Is showing off support for DAZ really such a bad idea that really no one could actually support it?

    - - -


    This I am going to comment on, I am a online gamer.. a former semi hardcore raider to be precise. And under NO circumstances what so ever would I ever want a medal to be seen on how much or how little I spend on this store. Achievments and titles in a game or on a forum are one thing, but they should NOT be involved when it comes to real life money!

    I can only take myself as example, there is so much I want to buy from this store.. but I can't.. simply cause I honestly barely have enough to actually make the month go round... there is even times I barely have enough food to see me through the whole month. So no, how much or how little I spend in this store, is not something I would want to be shown. If it ever, under any circumstances came to that.. I would rather actually leave.

    Achievments and titles, post counts and so on are fine. As long as they don't involve things like real life money (as well as some other things).

    And yes, of course it would show how much one supported Daz.. but on the other hand, it would make a lot of people either leave cause they can't afford to buy enough to feel like they are supporting, or they would buy way over their limits just to show that they do support... bottom line, medals for how much we spend in the store is a big mistake, and I for one surely hope it will never happen.

    /Carola

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 617
    edited November 2013

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    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,086
    edited December 1969


    And yes, of course it would show how much one supported Daz.. but on the other hand, it would make a lot of people either leave cause they can't afford to buy enough to feel like they are supporting, or they would buy way over their limits just to show that they do support... bottom line, medals for how much we spend in the store is a big mistake, and I for one surely hope it will never happen.

    Bingo! My exact sentiments on the issue. To be honest, I kind do feel a bit of inferiority when I see all the "Addicts" with their four green boxes and 4000+ post counts. Of course, I don't need to have those things to be loud and enthusiastic as I am about DAZ Iconic Characters, and God knows I make myself very much heard. :) But still, I do feel the psychological pressure at times.

    But I absolutely agree without the slightest argument on post/thread deletion! Too many times have I've been silenced because all I want to do is discuss a new upcoming Gen 5 character, even though DAZ themselves has the ReadMe's for their bases and content on the Documentation list for all to see. I find it highly ridiculous and pointless, and especially how part of the reason why I loved being a PC member was being able to see what DAZ was cooking up in the Members-exclusive Sneak Preview threads.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,368
    edited December 1969

    In those companies part of the job description is to take the heat in the forum. Another part is to collect and gather issues and actually report them up to the persons in charge. Another part of the job description is not to voice an opinion themselves.
    ...
    If there is a conflict of interest in away that the personal opinion of the moderator may affect the answer then

    the moderator
    - could choose not to answer at all
    - ask another moderator that is not involved on an emotional level to deal with that topic
    - ask a member of the community to make a case for the cause

    That's not entirely accurate. They're perfectly allowed to speak their minds on a multitude of things, however it should not portray the company in a negative light and they should avoid the obvious flame-bait topics such as religion or pro-abortion or something. There are some companies who do have very strict rules to abide by, but I'm reasonably sure that those don't apply here. Remember, there's a big difference between an argument and a debate. One of them involves trying to convince the other that you're right, and the other is weighing the pros and cons in a respectful manner, regardless of your opinions.

    So any one brave enough to say:

    I spend money in the DAZ store and want other people to see how much I spent.

    Spending money in the DAZ store is equal to supporting DAZ.

    Is showing off support for DAZ really such a bad idea that really no one could actually support it?


    I spend money in the Daz store, but I don't really care to be labelled by how much I spent. Would I care to have a dozen badges to illustrate the many pro bundles I've bought? Not really, no. Am I glad that I'm supporting Daz by purchasing from their store? Of course I am, and I'm very happy with the level of service I've had from them thus far. But I don't want to be placed on a metaphorical pedestal based on wealth.

    At best you'd get a tiny increment in sales as some users rush to buy products to earn extra forum credits. At worst you'd start judging people based on their income which is a whole can of worms that should never be opened. Ever.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited May 2013

    First, thank you for posting a thoughtful and well thought out comment on this issue. It is an issue not just here but within all the main Poser/DAZ communities. I was thinking about this issue the other day after reading posts in another forum and thinking about why I no longer post at that forum.

    I don't want to have this thread devolve into a flame fest so I'm going to discuss the issue at hand rather than root causes. Also I think we need to look for solutions rather than look to place blame.

    It is my belief that the forum is a lot quieter these days. So the question I suppose should be how can we increase the number of people that post? Linvanchene has come up with one suggestion, can anyone else suggest other ideas?



    The question that popped up in my mind quite often lately is:

    How is DAZ actually gathering information what their user base wants?

    Are they reading forum posts and actualy acting on them? Or are they sending out e-mails and asking customers for their opinion?

    Or are all decisions made on sales statistics? I don't have the answer to your question but hopefully so one who knows more can answer for you. My personal opinion is that it would be based on sales...it is possible that if sales aren't what they expected that they might look to the forums to get answers. One thing that is certain is that they have responded to forum comments in the past. They also have done surveys on customer satisfaction after the customer has requested help through Zendesk.


    The spiral of silence

    ". Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation. The assessment of ones social environment may not always be correct with reality" interesting theory and may well apply as to why there are less posters. If so the question should be how can we make people feel comfortable to post without it ending in problems. Part of the reason the forums rules were strengthened was because of problems in the forum.

    Are there a dominating few forum posters who have gathered forum posts in the 1000s who jump into every discussion advertising their point of view?

    Are new users who only have a 1-30 posts taken serious? seriously...I don't think this is a problem. The new users forum was started to give new users a safety net precisely because some forum members were very rude to them. I think that this is an area that DAZ have gotten right and we should recognise that this is due to the good work of Ann and her team of Community Volunteers. Maybe as an ex volunteer I could be accused of bias but these people work hard to make sure that people needing help get the help they need.


    Are there any customers who just read on the forums and are actually afraid to post because they fear they will just get shred to pieces when they speak up against the opinion of those who have a post count of thousands and more?
    I don't think that post count is the base issue. Certainly my own experience elsewhere wasn't based on post count but the anger and ferocity of the replies the op had received.


    If DAZ is a business should it not be the opinion of those users who spend the most money in the store that should count the most?
    Yes and no...in the forum I think that it's more important for everyone including DAZ that we have a Community of Practice

    See here. http://www.ewenger.com/theory/

    Now it would be quite more fun to have a look at the forum again.

    I think this happens already but I also think that the forum is less busy than it used to be.


    What is the reason for this post:

    People asume that they know what the majority opinion is and claim to speak for it.


    Yes, this does happen....but it happens everywhere in life.


    People are taking rumors for facts and noone is correcting them.


    From what I've seen there is normally lots of people waiting to correct ; )


    New users with only a few posts are treated quite rude and not taken serious.

    I personally haven't seen this happening but I could have missed it.


    Users are attacked on a personal level as soon as all real arguments are presented.

    I'm not sure that this is happening to a huge extent here at the moment. It was for a while on both sides.


    Longtime users tell new users that this has been discussed allready and shut topics down.

    I have seen this happening on occasions in the commons but it doesn't happen in the new users forum and I think it generally gets quickly answered by someone who is there to help.

    Moderators and Administrators are voicing their personal opinions in discussions.

    Yes, this could get murky as the role of moderator is essentially to ensure peace. However as others have mentioned our moderators are volunteers and should still be able to post personal comments where it doesn't conflict with their role.

    Posts are censored and deleted.

    Threads are locked before everything was discussed.

    Sometimes...there is no choice to lock a thread to prevent bloodshed. I can understand that people may feel that there is more that they want to have heard.


    This is a difficult issue and solutions aren't easy to come by it may well be that it will take time for our community to regain its vibrancy that it once had.

    Edit to fix iPad correction

    Post edited by Pendraia on
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    I have to admit, I find the idea that a forum should have some sort of awards (optional or not) for how much someone spends to be a little... well, confusing. Especially representing some sort of "weight" that that person's voice should have.

    I can sorta follow it with On-line gaming, which admittedly I don't do (and having such a system would severely discourage me from participating in the forums, much more so than any post counts). But how would you implement it for, say, the White Wolf forums. They're the official forums for the company, but they sell a physical product (RPG books), available in a multitude of stores. Surely this awards system wouldn't make sense there. I haven't been there in a while, but when I was, the people who were listened to the most were the people who have done things to support the community. Either writing for the company or creating fan-resources for the players and storytellers. These also tend to be the people who are the most helpful to others. But it really had nothing to do with how many books they had bought. Someone who was helpful and with a good web-resource but just started with Geist was easily as respected as someone who started with the original Vampre: the Masquerade and has been steadily upgrading with each new edition.

    The same way, here, I tend to respect those artists who are most helpful in explaining how to do something, and those PA's and freebie providers who likewise are present on the forums and willing to answer questions and respond to (polite) critique. Post count and join date mean nothing. Same with how much is spent. How helpful someone is, and their attitude, mean much more to me.

    Are there threads I have ignored or not responded to, that I wanted to? Sure. But not because I was afraid of having a minority opinion. Sometimes, I feel that since others have made my point (frequently better than I could), I don't need to. Sometimes, I start to type an answer, then realize I'm in a bad mood and my post will likely end up inflammatory. Other times, I start to respond to a post that I realize will probably get deleted because it is little more than flame-bait, even if the poster doesn't realize it, and then stop myself, leaving it to the mods. Occasionally, I'll just decide that it isn't worth getting into an argument about.

    "Don't sweat the small stuff" and "Pick your battles" are mantras I try to live by. They've worked for me as a parent. :)

  • bog10222bog10222 Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    As a very new user, I would like to share that my experience from the beginning in this forum has been really wonderful. Everyone who I have interacted with has been polite, friendly and very helpful. I could list the people who I have corresponded directly with, but I know that there are others of you who sincerely have the best interests of everyone in mind and who are always willing to help. Thank you all very much!

    I am certain that DAZ 3D is such a wonderfully special product suite because the people who build and support it, including all those who contribute their personal time to it, are the same way.

    As my alter ego would say, humans are such a strange lot, too many of them don't know how to get out of their own way. To those who would be negative on this forum, that is what I say.

    To those who sincerely give their best to supporting DAZ 3D, and many of you consistently show that, tremendous thanks to making it a great experience!

    Post edited by bog10222 on
  • Norse GraphicsNorse Graphics Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    Well, the number of posts aren't indicating anything beyond how much time you're online here at the DAZ forums. Granted, it's my number one waterhole, so that might account for my 'status'.

    As for newbies, we've all been there. Show me anyone who was born an expert. Showing those new the in's and out's of 3D-stuff - politely - isn't too much of an effort, so it's pretty easy to answer questions in a civil tone.

    As for how much I spend, I'd probably be granted several golden stars. Doesn't mean I am better or worse. My artistic pictures and ideas, however, I hope will make my case of who I am. And hopefully be the only thing that determines my 'standing' in this community. Or the art community in general, though I - like the rest of us - have the 'make art-button' stigma hanging over our heads by those dealing with paper, brush and ink. But time will probably show the same development as those into artistic photography, and we might gain some recognition for our hard work.

    Post edited by Norse Graphics on
  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,370
    edited December 1969

    you want to read demeaning unhelpful comments?
    click on the "do not click" in my sigline and read any of the comments on my 600 Youtube videos!! %-P
    I have 10 000+ VERY scary subscribers who do not hold back in voicing an opinion!
    I myself am imtimmidated by my post count (hence the "troll" status)
    but
    this forum is a very friendly place compared to what else I have encountered in cyberspace
    hence my frequent posting
    out THERE is a jungle I tell you!
    how many other forums have you posted on?
    I have a few but not many times, some once or twice
    being ignored at best
    so yes I post a lot here as it is the safest friendliest place I have found.

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Klugdge,thank you so much for your feedback.
    Kludge said:
    A real fast note here. This is NOT an online gaming community nor does it play one on TV. You're trying to mix apples and acorns and it just doesn't work.
    I do not have the numbers to confirm nor deny how many users of DAZ content are playing online games.
    You made a guess based on your personal opinion and are now presenting it as a fact.
    I assume that you do not know the number as well.
    No,. I said the community is not a gaming community. On a gaming site, you have gamers with gamer values. There probably are gamers here but the focus isn't gaming and collecting awards etc. It's primarily 3D art. That is fact. That some members may be involved in gaming doesn't make the community as a whole a gaming community. That also is fact. The precise numbers don't matter and what you're presenting is edging toward a straw man argument.
    Kludge said:
    The folks here have an entirely different set of interests et al and the sort of "awards" you're pushing just ain't gonna cut it.
    I also asume that you are in no place to speak for the whole community to speak what their interests are.
    I don't have to. I've been reading the responses and that is a darned good indicator of how the community feels about that concept.
    But speaking in the name of the whole community is exactly that kind of behavior that is causing that an opinion is considered dominant when in fact it might not be.
    Speaking in terms of the representative group here is valid. What you're doing is trying hard to force an opinion on others simply because it works in an entirely different environment.
    Kludge said:
    With that, the mods et al here are volunteers in many cases as is true of a number of other 3D art-related forums I'm on. Again, this is an entirely different community that doesn't require having paid pros handling the majority of the forum topics & discussions. Apples & acorns.
    This goes offtopic and into more detail into the forum staff aspect but it is also connected so I pick it up.
    YOU opened the door so expect commentary on it.
    The main difference between DAZ and other 3D related art forums is that DAZ is also a business.
    Oh. And Renderosity, RDNA, Content Paradise and the other "R" place aren't? Whoa, news to me! Even Fantasy Attic is a business (as Fantasy Realms) yet the mods are volunteers. I know because I am one.
    While on art forums everyone is there to discuss art on the DAZ forum several different things happen:
    Okay, let's go over them point by point ...
    - Help forum
    Very professinally handled with a lot of friendly people. Really no complaint at all here.
    Oh, so volunteer mods aren't so bad after all. Imagine that.
    - DAZ Studio forum
    Here is some kind of a grey zone were the first issues arise.
    On the one hand it is quite well structured to discuss only topics related to DS.
    What about those dedicated to Carrara, Bryce or Hex? They also are DAZ products.
    - Some people expect that when the write feature requests they are actually read by DAZ staff.
    Personally I observed that some issues actually might get noticed because sometimes DAZ staff is posting in release posts.
    But there is not much indication that they will look at any other threads.

    Oh. So this says they don't read without posting. Interesting. Mr Haseltine, would you or another DAZist care to comment on this?
    If forum staff is telling customers with issues to file a ticket they may end up alienating the client even more.

    Funny, that is precisely what a client is supposed to do, file a ticket. I've yet to see anyone alienated by this except on occasion those who've filed tickets and not been satisfied with the results. From what I've seen, both DAZ and volunteer folks have been exceptionally courteous & helpful when that happens.
    What is needed here would be paid Software Support Staff.

    Who do you think handles the tickets? The paid software support staff does. Imagine that! They've also been known to show up in the forums. Memory serving, DAZ_Spook is just such a person. (He also didn't like my joke about Spooky Software. *sigh* ... such is life.)
    - the commons
    Idealy the commons could be a place for off topic communication.

    Yes, I suppose a portion could be set up for off-topic discussion BUT why not a separate General OT discussion area - kind of a "Water Cooler" area? Why not suggest this rather than complain that it doesn't exist? As a side note, OT discussions do pop up now and then plus, if you read the threads, you'll find that OT discussions take place in them. By the same token, I don't know that when the forums were first established there wasn't an OT area that went away due to atrophy. Any Old Timers care to answer that one?
    The main and biggest issue happens here because of the lack of a "Sales Forum"
    How many complaints of customers about products they purchased end up in the commons?

    Ummm ... that is part of the purpose of the Commons. Let me quote from the forum header, "Here is where you may feel free to discuss anything related to DAZ 3D or the 3d / digital art world. Here you can talk about the latest DAZ 3D product, or any other ideas and suggestions you might have with all of your fellow community members." (emphasis mine) Where does it say that product issues are not to be posted there? (Hint: It doesn't.)
    So that mixing together "Apples & acorns" as you put it may actually be the underlying problem of quite a few issues.

    No, the apples & acorns mix referred to trying to treat this as a gaming forum with gaming values and attitudes.
    DAZ is not just one thing it is many. This also yields many different expectations.
    To bring them all together is difficult but then the challange of any business.

    And, oddly enough, DAZ does a decent job of it. It's not perfect by any means but no forum is. Not here, not Rendo, Not RDNA, not CP, not the other R place ... not anywhere I've been and I've been to a good number of forums, mostly managed by commercial enterprises. I don't believe it's possible to create a "perfect" forum since people are different and look for different things.
    I could have let the thread go on for a few days and then see what happens. But that might also lead that most people would just loose interest by then. As Herald of Fire pointed out he was confused by the purpose of the thread.

    So am I, for that matter. And if a thread isn't interesting people will wander off and look elsewhere. From the body count, this isn't one of the more interesting threads going.
    How many times in the last months have you felt like adding your opinion to a topic but then did not because you were in the minority?

    Never.
    How many times have you felt that the dominant opinion is allready formed and there is no point of adding your voice?

    Never.
    How do you like the way the forum communication is going at the moment?

    In general, quite well. As mentioned previously, no forum is perfect and there are bumps in the road but when humans are involved this is going to happen. It's part of human imperfection.

    As to the dissenting minority, did you consider the possibility that NO one has a contradictory view in some cases so the vocal majority is, in fact, everyone? OTOH, if you want a "discussion" that leads to deleted posts and locked threads, try opening a Studio vs Poser thread or maybe "Genesis is proof DAZ has abandoned Poser users" thread. (I think both of those topics are verboten now, come to think of it.) They got lively and lead to ad hominim attacks within a day. Or less. Does the gaming community allow flamefests or would the same thing happen there?

    To be completely honest, I don't find any merit in your arguments but then our backgrounds and experiences here are completely different. Sauce for the goose isn't sauce for the gander here or on any forum.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,992
    edited December 1969

    It's an interesting question.


    (And in answer to one that's been posed, it's sales. I'm very positive on that.)


    I'm not in favor of further scorekeeping. It serves no good purpose. When a person is truly ignorant, they show that in one of two ways: either by asking questions and trying to learn, or by arrogantly asserting the incorrect. I think most of us can identify the difference. Those who cannot are destined to argue until they learn or give up, and badges won't change that.

  • mrposermrposer Posts: 763
    edited December 1969

    I don't pay any attention to post counts or the badge designations... they are as meaningless as the friend counts on facebook. I remember the people who have helped me, the users who have funny posts and show a great sense of humor, the PAs who take the time to interact with potential buyers on the forums when their products are released, and the mods who are fair to both the users and to DAZ.

    I do think the focus of the forums has shifted away from being the heads-up place for all new 3d products and more for just DAZ. Its also less of a gathering spot for the big DAZ events like March Madness .... because these days everyday sales are happening and there is less emphasis on big sale events.

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 2,233
    edited December 1969

    Greetings,
    Badges based on expenditure (and thereby, inevitably, income) rub egalitarians the wrong way. They also rub wrong us folks who are a bit tetchy or embarrassed about how much we spend.

    Now I'll tell you a few pieces of gamification (that's the technical term for what you're trying to introduce/extend) that would kick tush...

    Badges for winning contests - Contest creators could present a little logo for their contest (a pair of dice for RRRR for example!) and you'd accumulate them as you won contests. You could pick which ones (2-3 at most) you wanted to show normally, and have a little shrine of all of them in your profile.

    Badges for being helpful - This requires a way of giving positive feedback; the negative feedback (report/ignore) already exists. This is a key piece of the gamification of sites like Stack Overflow and it's related knowledge sites. Folks who take the time to write helpful responses that answer a question get 'upvoted' and get points. Those points result in various levels of badge and additional features. (Stack Overflow has an entire large list of power-user features that become available as you become more and more useful on the site.)

    A PC member badge - This will be the most controversial, I believe...but it's a nice, simple way to set apart the folks who have joined and continue to be part of the Platinum Club. Plus it's a mighty-quick way to recognize if your PC membership disappears accidentally. ;)

    Again, the underlying idea would be that you could pick and choose which (if any!) badges showed up in your normal posting.

    ALL THAT SAID...

    None of this is going to happen, because they have a very small team who works on the website, and they have at least 6-9 months of higher priority work that are much more important to the business than adding gamification to the forum.

    Some kinds of negativity here get me down sometimes, I'll admit it, but I have no trouble presenting my view, and I've never felt that my opinion was marginalized. I've felt that folks disagree with me, and sometimes don't phrase that disagreement very well, but we're all human, and I give a lot of latitude for that, even to the folks who vigorously disagree with me. I've also had times when I wonder if my posts even are read, but the truth is that not every word I write is a golden nugget rich in nutritious wisdom. :)

    So no, I have not found that the 'spiral of silence' affects me, personally. It's also worth noting that the lurker-to-poster ratio in software-related groups generally approaches 90%, so the silence is not merely a function of marginalized opinion, but rather an endemic tendency in users to avoid public discussion. One which, history over the last 25+ years of the Internet has shown us, is not particularly avoidable.

    -- Morgan

  • Carola OCarola O Posts: 1,685
    edited May 2013

    linvanchene to be fully honest, you have in this thread manage to actually be the only one on this forum to make me feel insulted.... and that is due to the gamer comment.

    As have been stated above by Kludge, this is not a gaming community, regardless of how many or how few people here are gamers. Bringing gamers into this discussion is questionable truth to be told, but it also showed that you seem to have packed all gamers together in one bunch and expect them to fully jump on such hings are you money medals... That is how your comment comes off to me.

    I know that I did respond to that earlier, but since I have thought more on it, as well as actually talked around with several other gamers both those I know personally as well as those I actually don't know at all. I decided to bring this up again.

    Of all the people I did talk to, not a single one of them would have wanted medals or achievment based on how much money they spend. Considering that the gaming world contains a lot of people, far more than I could ever talk to... I am also sure there might be those that would like it. But that's the point of this reply, to point out that just because people are gamers doesn't mean they don't have their own personality, views and moral codes.

    Bottom line with my above comments - Just because someone is a gamer doesn't mean they would want to hunt achievments/titles or medals to show off how much money they spend.


    And again, this is NOT a gaming community, so bringing gamers into this is a mote point in my opinion. Even if it did serve to truly insult me, to the degree of actually asking strangers for their opinion.


    Perhaps there is a lot of people that do not come in and actually respond to this discussion, but did it occur that maybe they don't feel that they ether want to add something to this, or perhaps feel they don't have anything to add since they might (or might not) agree with what is being said already?


    Badges for winning contests - Contest creators could present a little logo for their contest (a pair of dice for RRRR for example!) and you’d accumulate them as you won contests. You could pick which ones (2-3 at most) you wanted to show normally, and have a little shrine of all of them in your profile.

    Badges for being helpful - This requires a way of giving positive feedback; the negative feedback (report/ignore) already exists. This is a key piece of the gamification of sites like Stack Overflow and it’s related knowledge sites. Folks who take the time to write helpful responses that answer a question get ‘upvoted’ and get points. Those points result in various levels of badge and additional features. (Stack Overflow has an entire large list of power-user features that become available as you become more and more useful on the site.)

    A PC member badge - This will be the most controversial, I believe…but it’s a nice, simple way to set apart the folks who have joined and continue to be part of the Platinum Club. Plus it’s a mighty-quick way to recognize if your PC membership disappears accidentally.

    Again, the underlying idea would be that you could pick and choose which (if any!) badges showed up in your normal posting.

    I do agree with Morgan on this, the kind of badges mentioned above is more of what would be funny to see. Since they are not involved with how much money that is being spent but rather they are a nice little touch.


    I am sorry if I do come off sounding annoyed and such, it isn't my meaning to do that. And as always, these are my opinion and my reaction to some of what you have written.

    Small edit - as I hadn't seen this before posting :) Does the gaming community allow flamefests or would the same thing happen there?

    From the different gaming community I have seen, it works very different.. just like with other communities and so on. As all of them are depending on moderators that more often than not do have their own personal opinion. At times flamefests barely starts before the thread is removed, and at other times it takes forver and all out threats before it being removed. It ALL depend on the moderators and the community in itself. A more mature community with responsibly moderators keep a check on things so it don't go out of hand, if it does it's being locked or removed depending on how serious it was. So in that sense I would say that a mature gaming community would work the same way as it do here :)

    /C

    Post edited by Carola O on
  • dyretdyret Posts: 105
    edited December 1969

    I would just totally stop posting if I had to get badges here. Isn´t giving people badges... eh.. badgering? :cheese:

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,444
    edited December 1969

    linvanchene to be fully honest, you have in this thread manage to actually be the only one on this forum to make me feel insulted.... and that is due to the gamer comment... this is NOT a gaming community

    I was not going to respond to this thread but I decided I had to step in and support this.

    Gaming communities are by definition competitive. This is not or should not be a competitive environment. This is about the art. Most people here, I believe, are here to help each other out. No medals, no badges, just trying to help each other get past the bumps. Introducing anything remotely akin to what was mentioned would be destructive to that sense of community. People spend a lot of time coming into the forums, unpaid, to try their best to help others. I think rather then start a flame war about this, we should thank the people who give of their time to try to help others rather then suggesting they should perhaps feel guilty because someone might think they post too often. I for one would like to say thank you for everyone who has taken the time to try and help all of us.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 617
    edited November 2013

    edited and removed by user

    Post edited by linvanchene on
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