Helper objects not helping in Carrara

More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Hi,

I got my rig all set up with weight paint and all seemed good but then when I started to place the helper objects, I found an issue. The model starts to swim around as I zoom in with my mouse wheel. I noticed the motion isn't placing new key frames like it normally would with motion, so I'm not sure if this is a glitch or what. Anyone else have this issue or know a solution that can fix this?

Thanks

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Comments

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,578
    edited December 1969

    Maybe save and quit, then relaunch Carrara?

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    Thanks. I gave it a try but its still doing it. So it sounds like a bug then?

    OOPS. I just took the helper object from a nested position and it may have fixed this.... I thought it needed nesting. Guess not?

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    It is still jumping around some when I scrub and let go of the mouse. It messed up my original pose enough to make me go back to an old file. :(

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    Hi More2burn :)

    What version of carrara are you using ...is this happening in the 8.5 Beta, or in 8.1 ?
    what OS and graphics card. ?

    Any more info on what you're doing, and how you're doing it, or screen-shots of the figure / bones / instance list etc..can be helpful

    for example,. are you using he IK chain tool,. to create the IK helpers,. or are you adding a target helper object, and using "IK target" to select that helper object.

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Carrara 8 8.1.1.12
    Vista
    Nvidia 9500GT

    I'm adding a target helper object. Selecting the bone I want for that object and going to the modifiers tab where I then select the helper object that I made.

    Carrara.jpg
    1366 x 768 - 160K
  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    Hi More2burn.

    It could be a bug or a limitation in IK tracking or constraints. Its been an issue since Carrara 6(iirc). Mouse zoom movements that move the setup also happen in an simple IK chain with no bones.

    I can give quick text written steps to repeat this issue for testing/bug reporting if needed.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    HI Tbwok :)

    This isn't something that I'm seeing in C8 or C6 / C7. either using target helper objects,. or the IK chain tool.

    So, yes,. what's needed is a description of the steps to reproduce this.
    if it's reproducible,. or other people are having this issue,.. and it's apparent in C6 / C7 /C8,.
    Has it been reported as a bug ?

    If its happening for you in C6 / C7and C8 ,. Is it also happening in the Beta of 8.5 ?

    If it's still happening in the current beta,. then it needs to be dealt with now.

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Evil, 3DAge, tbwoq, for the help. :)

    I hope they work on that bug for the next release and hope its the one effecting me. I'll need to use another program if I want ik helpers and that's no fun :(
    Does anyone know if Carrara has a way to mirror weight paint? Thanks.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    HI :)

    I'm not sure that this is a BUG,. because it's not happening for me,. in any version,. but it is for you,. so, I'd like to try to figure out what the problem is.

    EG : are you both using the same mouse type / make,. or is there something else that you're both using which could cause this

    Can you please download this IK test file (13kb) and see if the IK targets behave in the same way that you're IK targets in your rig are behaving.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/ik_test.car

    thanks :)

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    @3dage

    I made the model in hex.
    I textured it in 3dcoat. (not shown in above pic.)
    Back to hex to make an exact copy that was mirrored so I could have the texture mirrored on a "Twin" model. (just wanted to check if it would look ok later.)
    Into Carrara to rig. I deleted one model and centered the one that remained. ( I noticed in the model room that it didn't center the same and I'm not sure if that matters.)
    Made the bones and set constraints on the movement to limited.
    Painted the weight.
    Made a target helper object.
    Select the bone I wanted it to effect.
    Went to modifiers tab where I then select the helper object that I made.

    Just saw your new post and will download now
    Thanks

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    I'm using a logitech wireless mouse.
    The file worked fine and didn't have the same issues.


    thanks

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    To test this issue/behavior using an IK chain setup;

    -Insert 3 primitive cubes offset from each other.
    -Parent them...

    Cube
    |
    Cube 1
    |
    Cube 2.

    Select Cube(parent) in the instance list, then select 'Create IK chain' icon on left side of the screen. Now click on Cube 2 in the scene window(this adds an IK Target to the instance list). Insert a Target Helper Object anywhere in scene. Select Cube 1 and add a 'Track' modifier to it(Modifiers tab->Behaviors->Track). Set the Cube 1 track modifier to track the Target Helper Object.

    With the Move tool, mouse zooming will now move the setup. Im using the default mouse driver in Windows and C8.5 build 204 beta.
    ----
    Mirror weight painting should work with Symmetry enabled in the model tab(C8 Pro and above afaik). Though Carrara is very strict with polymesh symmetry, if it is not exact it may not work well.

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    @ tbwoq,

    Yes this is very similar, if not exactly the same as my issue. I never used a track modifier though so I'll just cross my fingers for when they fix your bug, that it will fix mine too.

    Is there a difference between using the ik chain method and the one I used? It shouldn't matter right? But if there is a difference I'll try using IK chain.
    thanks for the tips.

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    More2burn said:
    @ tbwoq,

    Yes this is very similar, if not exactly the same as my issue. I never used a track modifier though so I'll just cross my fingers for when they fix your bug, that it will fix mine too.

    Is there a difference between using the ik chain method and the one I used? It shouldn't matter right? But if there is a difference I'll try using IK chain.
    thanks for the tips.

    Glad the info helped.

    Almost positive the issue steps are related, as it has happened in figures rigging I used before. It was just easier to explain with a primitive IK chain setup. I will check the bug tracker later to see if there a report on a similar issue.

    This issue may also be related to a constraints and parenting bug, where constrained objects will move if you unparent and parent them to other objects. For instance, in my example above, after setting up the IK, deselecting 'Use Constraints' icon causes the cubes to move or shift unexpectedly.

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    Ok, let me know what you find out and if I should file a new report. thx

    Update: I just reported the bug with your instructions to recreate the issue. Thx again

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    More2burn, thanks for the bug report(#0050339).

    I left notes(under a different name because that system didn't allow a duplicate forum name),...and also a link to an older duplicate issue #0029271. Hopefully with both reports and others leaving notes, this will get fixed for the next release as it causes major issues when rigging.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    HI :)

    I've tested the work-flow which Tbwok gave earlier with three cubes,. and although I was initially confused by the addition of a target helper on the Cube1 (no need for that) ..I followed the instructions, and tested it as described,.

    I see no random movement in the objects or the IK positions, or any movement,. when I use the mouse wheel to zoom in/out.

    In that example,. by selecting the IK chain tool,. and then selecting the First and Last cubes,. You create the IK chain, and add constraints to the Middle cube ,. and create the IK target helper object,. All in one move.

    that's it,... done.

    if you select the IK target helper and move it, the cubes should all move as if connected.

    there's no need to add a target helper object,. and adding a tracking modifier to the middle cube is actually telling that cube to do two things at the same time,. plus,. it's the only Cube which has constraints to limit it's motion, as it needs to be constrained for the IK chain to function properly.

    As the test scene which I made, worked for More2burn,. and didn't show any issues,.
    I have to assume that logically it's NOT a bug in the IK system,.
    If it was,. then the file would be showing the same "erratic motion" errors , on any system, for any user.

    So,. if it's not an IK bug, and it's not dependent on the users system,. then it's more likely to be work-flow related.

    But,. since you've reported it,. it makes little difference now,. the Dev's will look at the issue, and get back with a reply.

    As for the issue of objects moving after removing their constraints,. (which I'm not seeing here either)
    since the constraints are limiting / defining the motion of those objects,. then it seems logical that removing any constraints could result in the object reverting back to it's unconstrained position, or moving to another position depending on whatever else is affecting it's motion., EG: part of a chain or hierarchy,.. but again. I'm not seeing that here, so it's impossible for me to test / check.

  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    Hi 3DAGE.

    Thanks for looking into the issue. Interesting your not seeing it on your system. When you tested, did you see any subtle changes in the motion(translation) values of the cubes? The older bug report(#0029271) in the bug tracker is the same issue and might have better examples than I wrote.

    I agree though, theres no need for a target helper/tracking for Cube 1 and that type of workflow probably isn't a good idea. I was trying to force the issue to occur. The random IK/rigging movements not only happen on mouse zooming but also on general camera manipulations. Sometimes its easy to see, other times it depends on setup positions.

    The constraints issue, possibly related, is easy to test. A primitive sphere with a 'Ball Joint' constraint, and a Cube with a 'Custom'constraint. Parent one to the other in the instance list and they shift/move in position. If you use Undo you may notice sometimes one will rotate for no reason(the possible relation). More complex setups may not be easy to fix after(an issue by itself). I would also agree, this is probably not a good workflow but still shouldn't happen or at least maybe a warning dialog before attempting some IK/constraint setups.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    Hi Tbwok :)

    I'm not seeing any random movement at all in the IK test when I move the mouse to zoom in/out,. or when i'm using the camera's,. but I do see the movement issue with the parenting constrained objects , but I think that's more to do with the fact that both of the objects are constrained before they're being parented,. which effects the "group" structure, since you're creating a hierarchy where one object becomes the dominant parent, and one becomes the submissive child,.

    I've seen this issue myself when making a door, then parenting it to a door frame, or Wall,.
    For example:
    If I've set the axis constraint and limits to open/close the door, then I position it and parent it to the door frame,. then the door jumps to a different offset position,.
    But,.. if you create the door,. then parent it to the door frame, then set the constraint for the door,. it works as expected,.

    the same thing applies in your example with the primitive cube and ball.
    If you constrain the motion before parenting the objects,. you get movement because the objects are parent and child, and the child has to follow what the parent object does, but depending on the constraints, that may not be possible,. (if one is locked) . but it still tries to do what you're telling it,. and that results in an unexpected change in the position / rotation.

    If you grab the child object and pull it tout of the hierarchy in the instance list, it'll go back to it'd un-parented position

    the answer is to create the hierarchy of objects or bones,. before you add constraints to them.

    You can also "group" objects with IK or constraints,. then group them to other groups with IK or constraints, (nested groups).

    see quick example scene..

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/grouped_IK_.car

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    More2Burn :)

    You asked about the IK helper in my test scene,.
    Those are the default IK helpers which carrara creates when you use the IK Chain tool on the left hand tools,.
    it effects the position and rotation of the object it's assigned to,.

    The "target helper object" is an all purpose "helper object",. which can be used as an ik target, but could also be used as a camera target, (with the point at modifier) ,. or as a target (focal point) for the eyes of a figure.

    :)

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    I decided to try and repair the rig so I wouldn't have to do everything over and may have found more clues or just another bug :(

    Back when I set the bones, I duplicated the arm and leg on the X axis so I wouldn't need to do it all over and I think there is a tut that shows this is OK. Problem is that the duplicated side is messed up when you use the IK chain on the shoulder for example. It shoots up in the air, as does the leg when you apply the chain. I don't know what could be causing this.. Must I really do every bone without duplication? Argh!

    So I started over and built all the bones again and it's the same thing on the duplicated side. I did the opposite side. I did skin it to the model and then detached it to check that it wasn't the model and it does it without being attached. I just placed the bones and didn't add constraints or anything else.

    Is there a way to save the weight paint map out? So much time to make up.


    @tbwoq Thanks for the post on the bug report.

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    More2burn.

    Duplicate w/Symmetry for bones is working OK in testing here. If there is initially nothing added to the bones, IK or constraints, the only thing I can think of is the hierarchy setup.

    If you detach a skeleton for any reason, the weight paint will reset to defaults. Currently there isn't any way to save the weight maps for native rigging, only for Poser format imported content. It has been a feature request for awhile.

    ----

    3DAGE. Thanks for all the info.

    I found that just turning off 'Use Constraints' for constrained objects parenting, then back on, solved the problem(at least in my limited testing).

    ----

    Another way to see the OP navigation issue. Load a V4 in scene and have the figures 'rForeArm' track a target helper object. The figures arm will make extra movements when navigating the scene(mouse zooming etc.). You may have to move the target helper around to see the extra movements. Navigation in Carrara should never move an object in any way(imho), even if the program is doing something its not meant to do feature wise.

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    When I turned off ball joint constraints on my fist setup the duplicated bones side didn't go back to the original pose. I did this by going to the Motion tab and changing the Ball Joint to None. Let me know if there is a different way?

    I was using the IK chain tool wrong... but I thought it was the same issue as my old rig where I used the ik helper object from the top menu and placed it on the shoulder. I think that wouldn't be out of the ordinary to try but It may have caused the movement bug. Not sure.
    Thanks

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    HI More2burn :)

    You can us the Animation menu / Set IK and constraints,. that will open a panel where you can add IK and constraints to all of the bones,
    you can also use this option, (set to none) to remove / replace the existing IK

    The "Duplicate with Symmetry" option should work

    The Weight painting for Carrara native models,. is saved in the scene file, and there's currently no export option,. but, as Tbwok mentioned, there is an option to export weight maps for Daz content.

    When I turned off ball joint constraints on my fist setup the duplicated bones side didn’t go back to the original pose.

    There's a command in the Animation menu,. "Send bones to reference position" which (if the nones are attached to a model), will restore the bone positions to the default (before they were attached and posed).
    but even though you're using "Duplicate with symmetry" to create the other arm or leg bones,. that doesn't mean that working on one side,. will effect the other side,.

    I was trying to upload the bones but “NO GO” here. Not even a zip

    Dropbox is a good free solution,. you can add he3 files to your dropbox "public folder" (a folder on your computer) and it uploads it to your dropbox storage area,. once that's done, you can right click the file,. choose "copy public link" from the dropbox menu.
    then paste that link here.

    EG:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/Carrara_first_steps.zip

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE

    Thanks for the information. That should be very helpful. I edited my old post. I got some help on the bug tracker page.

    Thanks

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well, I started using the IK chain tool, and tested it on the original and the brand new skeleton I started over with. I was very cautious when I made the new one and didn't do any constraints or weight paint at all. I got the same issue with the duplicated side as before. I think it's the left side that is messed up on the new one.
    Here: https://bugs.daz3d.com/file_download.php?file_id=28307&type=bug

    Anyway, If you click on the upper back for example and then select the bad shoulder with the IK chain tool. It should shoot up in the air as it does for me, and screw up your model in the process. :(

    This is probably what caused the movement bug but cant say for sure. Is there another bug with duplicating bones?

  • More2burnMore2burn Posts: 0
    edited May 2013

    OK, it seems like the issue is with the IK and not the bones? I don't know for sure because only the duplicated side is effected negatively. Either way, is there many limitations with the types of rig you can create in Carrara, as opposed to those made in other software?

    I wanted to have IK controllers for all the normal places and it seems like the workflow is special in Carrara, or it can't be done without bugs? Is there special rules to follow in Carrara? Is there any tutorials out there that show a more advanced rig with IK controllers in all the normal places on a humanoid character? I've seen simple ones but if you take it too far does it always bug out?

    Any tips would be helpful for my next attempt.

    Thanks

    EDIT

    I found that when you uncheck mirror you can put IK on the problem joints. This may fix everything for me.

    Post edited by More2burn on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,578
    edited December 1969

    I've had the same issue in C7.2 Pro and C5. That's why I initially asked if you had tried quitting Carrara as that seemed to help me. The issue tended to happen for me if I had been working for a long time in Carrara. That's why I thought maybe it was memory related. I didn't have the more extreme movements you describe- just little movements.

  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited May 2013

    I don't see any issues with Carrara rigging other than the original post bug and maybe some odd object parenting behaviors. Otherwise it has been very solid and much easier than other software I've used. Im sure there are some limitations compared to other rigging software, but no limitations that I see to building a complete character as complex as V4/V5 etc.

    One example of Carrara native human rigging can be found in the Browser Scenes tab->Animations->Character. This figure rig has all the basics and is easy to follow. Its setup includes extra manipulators made from the model room(any object can be used as a manipulator/target helper type). Its set in a small scene magnitude, but can be copied out to a medium scene if needed.

    The IK chain tool is just a way to automatically setup a chain and its IK target helper, but you can also manually setup each IK for a rig in the bones/objects modifier tab(s). Building a character does have some rules(imho). For instance; the limitations of IK chains described in the PDF manual(p. 596 of my manual). Also, a good idea not to attach a skeleton and weight paint before you have the hierarchy bones setup aligned to the mesh exactly the way you want. As mentioned, its important as later you can send the bones to the reference(starting) positions(etc.) and detaching the skeleton resets the weight paint.

    Basic Carrara rigging;

    1.Import or build the mesh/model.
    2.Insert, parent and align the bones(4 views mode is best). Duplicate with symmetry at this point if needed.
    3.Attach skeleton.
    4.Assign IK and constraints.
    5.Weight paint.

    Save often in the process. Any skeleton hierarchy in the instance tab/list can be saved out to the browser by dragging it there if needed. Hope this helps.

    EDIT

    ...added wording, and extra info about IK limitations.

    Post edited by tbwoq on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 2,003
    edited December 1969

    Hi More2burn :)

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to this one,. I've been out doing other stuff, and I'm not really back yet :) so,.. bear with me.

    A quick look at the rig you sent, shows the "elbow" is an issue,.. The elbow is connected to the shoulder, (as it should be), but it's not connected to the hand bone (wrist)
    and the wrist is connected directly to the shoulder, which means it cannot bend at the elbow (see pic) where I've moved one elbow,. so you can see.

    I'm not sure if there's some reason to built it that way for your model, but the Shoulder (Upper arm), should connect with the elbow (Forearm) and then connect to the Wrist (Hand) ...then you can add an ik chain by selecting the Shoulder bone, then the hand bone.

    I'm also not sure of the advantage of using "duplicate with symmetry" when creating bones, especially given the current issues your having when you're using that..
    I would simply draw the left and right bones manually,. (do this as a test to see if you get the same results as you do when using Duplicate with symmetry)
    if you use the front view, then you should be able to use the Background grid spacing to line up the joints on both sides.

    As Tbwok mentions,. the rigging in carrara is as viable as rigging in any other program, and (IMO) much easier and faster to create bones and add those to a model than many programs.
    But, saying that it's easy,.. is relative to how familiar you are with rigging

    quick little example file :

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7907045/Ik_test_rig.car

    elbow.jpg
    1280 x 1024 - 263K
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