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Carrara v8.5.0.149 (PC/Mac) Beta Update
Posted: 19 July 2012 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 196 ]
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megacal - 19 July 2012 07:00 PM

Kendall,

besides price or gui, why use one un-biased/realistic renderer over another?

I’ve seen great renders with each.........3Delight, Maxwell, VRay,  Fry, Indigo, Lux, Kerkythea, Mental Ray Octane,  and now Cycles, etc.

Couldn’t find a good comparison besides the Wiki.


Absolutely.  Any renderer can create great renders.


How to select one over the other?  I say: “don’t”  I have many different tools available for what I do, Maya with Mental Ray, Maya with 3Delight, DS, Carrara, Blender, and many many more.  Each type of renderer has its own strengths and weaknesses, and if one is smart s/he will utilize the strengths of all available tools.  Even straight raytracers like POV have their uses grin .


What sets Renderman apart from the “built in” render engines is the ability to decouple the engine from the interface, reprogram the pieces, move the scene (RIB/RSL) to a completely different environment, and then render it.  Does that make it better?  Not necessarily.  More flexible certainly, but the complexity has its drawbacks.


What I don’t understand are those that will talk down what they don’t know about.  Poser users will dismiss DS because they have no idea of the power of 3Delight, DS users will dismiss Poser over lack of Firefly/Tempest knowlege, Carrarists dismiss both because they don’t know about those other render engines.  And on and on.


All of these are tools, just tools.  Use the tool that gets the job done.


Kendall

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Posted: 20 July 2012 02:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 197 ]
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Use the tool that gets the job done.

....my mantra, too. smile

 

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Posted: 20 July 2012 03:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 198 ]
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Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 07:58 PM

...DS users will dismiss Poser over lack of Firefly/Tempest knowlege…


Yeah, but you have to admit that Poser/Firefly (was it Poser 7 the last time I used it…) had renders that were really, really bad, no? Maybe I didn’t put enough effort into it, but damn, I recall getting some very soft and unexciting renders with that thing. Probably the main reason I jumped off the Poser ship so quickly. Of course I realized later how totally awful the entire program was, aside from the cloth.


But yeah, different horses for different courses, or whatever the expression is. I do think people like to simplify their lives, and too many options gives them a headache, so they like to knock everything other than what they choose to like. Makes life simpler.


And also there’s the added bonus: if you knock all the others, it suddenly makes your choice the best one in the world which is good for the ol’ ego, I suppose.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 199 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 20 July 2012 03:21 AM
Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 07:58 PM

...DS users will dismiss Poser over lack of Firefly/Tempest knowlege…


Yeah, but you have to admit that Poser/Firefly (was it Poser 7 the last time I used it…) had renders that were really, really bad, no? Maybe I didn’t put enough effort into it, but damn, I recall getting some very soft and unexciting renders with that thing. Probably the main reason I jumped off the Poser ship so quickly. Of course I realized later how totally awful the entire program was, aside from the cloth.


But yeah, different horses for different courses, or whatever the expression is. I do think people like to simplify their lives, and too many options gives them a headache, so they like to knock everything other than what they choose to like. Makes life simpler.


And also there’s the added bonus: if you knock all the others, it suddenly makes your choice the best one in the world which is good for the ol’ ego, I suppose.


The Poser default settings were pretty bad.  But, Firefly/Tempest is a REYES based render engine and, while not Renderman Compliant, uses the same base rendering algorithms that define the spec.  What this means is that, with enough tweaking, the renders could look much better than they did.  It is similar to the situation that DS has right now…  LOTS of power, not so good a default starting point.


For whatever reason, people tend to want to internalize their selection of software… be it OS, or Office Software, or 3D environment.  I’m sure some of it is a bit of laziness (not wanting to learn anything else), some of it may be monetary, some just emotional justification for their choice(s), and sometimes even just a bit of being a lemming and going with the crowd.


There is that old saying: “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”


Kendall

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Posted: 20 July 2012 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 200 ]
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Hello,
I wanna only point out that in my experience the success of a rendering engine is mostly due to materials (presets, editors or both) jointly with the talent of the user, and not only to the chosen algorithm. Generally speaking, the more the materials realism in response to light sources, the better the outcome and, consequently, the higher the success of the engine.
Obviously I’m talking about the search of hyper realism and we should distinguish between photographic hyper-realism and hyper realism in animation - that are slightly different in details and resolution. I think you won’t recall a renderman or arnold or 3delight breathtaking image, nevertheless they are widely used in CGI, but that’s another story

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Posted: 20 July 2012 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 201 ]
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I think the debate here has gotten really irrelevant to the reason I made my earlier statements to begin with.  I have looked into Renderman as I have seen the cool images it makes in Maya and 3DS but 1)the cost is prohibitive and 2) there is no support for Carrara as far as I know.  The reason I moved to Carrara over DS as I stated before was its good renderer over DS (I get it 3Delight is standards compliant).  You have added all these studies and sites to your debate but you are missing the point.  You do not factor in cost if I had 5 grand to through at it then I would already be using Renderman or another highend renderer, plus the support software that goes with it.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 202 ]
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akulla3D - 20 July 2012 08:30 AM

I think the debate here has gotten really irrelevant to the reason I made my earlier statements to begin with.  I have looked into Renderman as I have seen the cool images it makes in Maya and 3DS but 1)the cost is prohibitive and 2) there is no support for Carrara as far as I know.  The reason I moved to Carrara over DS as I stated before was its good renderer over DS (I get it 3Delight is standards compliant).  You have added all these studies and sites to your debate but you are missing the point.  You do not factor in cost if I had 5 grand to through at it then I would already be using Renderman or another highend renderer, plus the support software that goes with it.


3Delight standalone is free for up to 2 cores for PC, Mac, and Linux.  The current version is 10.0.50.  You can download your free installer from:  http://3delight.com


Kendall

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Posted: 20 July 2012 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 203 ]
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And Lux is free, too. wink

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Posted: 20 July 2012 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 204 ]
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And to bring this back around to Carrara… I wonder if there a possibility of Carrara being able to write RIBs in the “near” future?  It would be possible with .duf to move “most” scenes back to DS for output to RIB or Lux, but some Carrara specific things wouldn’t transfer.


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Posted: 21 July 2012 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 205 ]
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Thanks for the new serial. I’m back to hunting large complex insects!

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Posted: 22 July 2012 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 206 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 19 July 2012 07:34 PM
Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 07:20 PM

Actually, no.  I am collecting references for the inevitible challenge to whatever it is I say.  If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to “published experts.”  I’m culling through information that I have that is available without paying for access… most things Renderman come with a price attached.


...And really, I have enough respect for your opinion in this area, based on other stuff, that I don’t need a big list of papers. But if you tell me that in fact the Renderman spec is comprehensive, and one Renderman will render a given scene the same as the next, I’ll believe it. Honestly, all the detailed C++ programming stuff is so far beyond me that it wouldn’t help anyway….


So I hope my semi-praise didn’t diminish your desire to prove me wrong and come up with an argument to show me where I’m mistaken. Cuz I really did want to learn more about it. Really, the question is just “would all Renderman renderers, independent of what application they are in, give the same result for a given scene”.


If in fact they would, I find that very interesting, cuz it means that the spec is so comprehensive that it covers everything that goes into what the final render looks like. And like I say, I don’t need a bunch of references and C++ code, just some sort of agreement that yeah, given the same scene you’d get the same result.

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Posted: 22 July 2012 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 207 ]
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Kendall Sears - 20 July 2012 09:01 AM

3Delight standalone is free for up to 2 cores for PC, Mac, and Linux.  The current version is 10.0.50.  You can download your free installer from:  http://3delight.com

I have an Intel i920 quad core hyperthreading. That means I render with 8 cores. Does it make any sense to retrograde to a 3delioght 2 core renderer. Won’t my speed be reduced?

OTOH, an 8 core 3delight renderer will cost me $1250 (without the support). That’s, er, uh…  expensive.

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Posted: 22 July 2012 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 208 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 22 July 2012 04:36 AM
JoeMamma2000 - 19 July 2012 07:34 PM
Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 07:20 PM

Actually, no.  I am collecting references for the inevitible challenge to whatever it is I say.  If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to “published experts.”  I’m culling through information that I have that is available without paying for access… most things Renderman come with a price attached.


...And really, I have enough respect for your opinion in this area, based on other stuff, that I don’t need a big list of papers. But if you tell me that in fact the Renderman spec is comprehensive, and one Renderman will render a given scene the same as the next, I’ll believe it. Honestly, all the detailed C++ programming stuff is so far beyond me that it wouldn’t help anyway….


So I hope my semi-praise didn’t diminish your desire to prove me wrong and come up with an argument to show me where I’m mistaken. Cuz I really did want to learn more about it. Really, the question is just “would all Renderman renderers, independent of what application they are in, give the same result for a given scene”.


If in fact they would, I find that very interesting, cuz it means that the spec is so comprehensive that it covers everything that goes into what the final render looks like. And like I say, I don’t need a bunch of references and C++ code, just some sort of agreement that yeah, given the same scene you’d get the same result.


Please read the RiSpec wiki reference I gave.  There are methods given that allow for different “brands” to specialize.  Section 1.1 is the defined spec summary that all “Renderman Compliant” engines must be equivalent on.  Section 1.2 is the section covering the “extensions” that I mentioned.  Follow this with the 2 links I provided for a discussion on engines.  I’ll leave the rest of the research to the reader at this point as I have some RL work that I must complete.


I’m not out to prove anyone “wrong” or “right”.  I’m just providing information, and trying to squash misconceptions.  Use of the language described for RiSpec requires a specific input and output just as any standardized programming language.  Use, and implementation, of items in 1.2 is outside of Renderman and falls within “proprietary” technology.


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Posted: 22 July 2012 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 209 ]
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argus1000 - 22 July 2012 07:32 AM
Kendall Sears - 20 July 2012 09:01 AM

3Delight standalone is free for up to 2 cores for PC, Mac, and Linux.  The current version is 10.0.50.  You can download your free installer from:  http://3delight.com

I have an Intel i920 quad core hyperthreading. That means I render with 8 cores. Does it make any sense to retrograde to a 3delioght 2 core renderer. Won’t my speed be reduced?

OTOH, an 8 core 3delight renderer will cost me $1250 (without the support). That’s, er, uh…  expensive.


If using DS4 Pro x64 to access 3DL, then using the standalone would indeed result in a slowdown.  If one is using the 32 bit, then the standalone would provide an increase in performance.


Certified Renderman Compliance is expensive.  Think 3DL is expensive, look at the licensing for PrRenderman.  DAZ should be given kudos for providing access to such an expensive engine for free.  With .duf, one could say that now Carrara will have access to Renderman (and Lux) via a DS4 plugin grin.  Granted that certain features won’t convert, but what plugin ever works with all features?


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Posted: 22 July 2012 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 210 ]
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I think the debate here has gotten really irrelevant to the reason I made my earlier statements to begin with.  I have looked into Renderman as I have seen the cool images it makes in Maya and 3DS but 1)the cost is prohibitive and 2) there is no support for Carrara as far as I know.  The reason I moved to Carrara over DS as I stated before was its good renderer over DS (I get it 3Delight is standards compliant).  You have added all these studies and sites to your debate but you are missing the point.  You do not factor in cost if I had 5 grand to through at it then I would already be using Renderman or another highend renderer, plus the support software that goes with it.

Just to keep it relevant. smile


I’ve also seen and salivated over the beautiful renders done with the un-biased renderers…....the main reason I haven’t
gotten farther with any (including Octane…..I even built a computer to run it),  is just having to learn the gui, creating materials, etc
which is very time consuming.


I was really looking forward to upgrading Carrara when Reality 4 Carrara seemed like a possibility, if not for 8.5, then for 9.
It seemed like a great incentive to upgrade and would attract a lot of new users without having to give it (Carrara) away. R4C seemed capable
of filling the realistic renderer job for Carrara users. I would have upgraded to get it.


Alas, the deal fell through…..at least for now. I still hope DAZ will make it worth Paolo’s time to develop it. I think he’s still willing if they
would simply give him a break on the broker’s fees. He’s amazingly patient, talented, and must drink pots of espresso.


In the mean time, LuxRender seems like the best game in town ...it
can use the CPU or GPU depending on which graphics card you have, will use all available cores on Auto-Detect,  or use only the number
you let it, and last but not least, it’s FREE. wink

 

 

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