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Carrara v8.5.0.149 (PC/Mac) Beta Update
Posted: 18 July 2012 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 181 ]
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Kendall Sears - 17 July 2012 06:21 PM

...
Infinito gives DS landscape generation and modification features that rival and slightly exceed Carrara’s, and the ability to place props/figures on the ground in varying degrees of situations is way beyond what C currently has.
...

Really?

I don’t have the infinito plugin.  But it didn’t seem to be anywhere near the capability of Carrara.

The Carrara terrains are quite good, and the replicators are awesome.  After using themfor quite a while I find them fast and quite powerful.

What can the infinito plug in do that Carrara cannot?  I may have to buy that…

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Posted: 18 July 2012 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 182 ]
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It would be nice to see how this all works out.  I might be happy with DS if its render engine didnt suck so much and I don’t try to argue Reality plugin as it is cool but doing special lighting effects and back lighting as far as I can tell are not possible.

Fingers crossed and waiting…....

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Posted: 18 July 2012 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 183 ]
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akulla3D - 18 July 2012 07:55 AM

It would be nice to see how this all works out.  I might be happy with DS if its render engine didnt suck so much and I don’t try to argue Reality plugin as it is cool but doing special lighting effects and back lighting as far as I can tell are not possible.

Fingers crossed and waiting…....

???  3Delight is Renderman.  As in Certified Compliant.  As in it renders the same way PrRenderman (Pixar), and all other Renderman Compliant renderers are required to.  Shaders follow RSL.  Saying “DS’s renderer sucks” is the same as saying “Renderman sucks.”  Are you willing to go on the record as saying that the Dominant Renderer in use for feature films “sucks?”  Have you even gone to 3Delight’s site?  Did you know that District9 (the movie) was done with 3Delight?  Did you know that more than a few large orgs use the same 3Delight that DS uses from Maya?


What DS lacks is a set of “Uber Cool” presets that make all renders “pop” out of the box.  This is mostly a function of not getting a Renderman expert to create a set of presets, not having a sucky renderer.


EDIT:  Take a look here. http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php/projects  DS uses the same EXACT versions as was used here.


Kendall

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Posted: 19 July 2012 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 184 ]
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Kendall Sears - 18 July 2012 08:05 AM

  Are you willing to go on the record as saying that the Dominant Renderer in use for feature films “sucks?”


Okay, akulla3d, you’ve really gone and done it now….


I think you face the real possibility, if you do indeed go on the record as stating that the Dominant Renderer in use for feature films “sucks”, that you will be banned from 3D completely. And I mean a team of guys at your front door who come in and remove your hard drive and any copies of any 3D related software, and ban you from ever purchasing any 3D related product ever again. I’m serious. Because they’re all connected, you know…all the 3D companies, they’re all connected, and they have very strict policies against renderer bashing. I also think there’s a distinct possibility of lightning striking in your vicinity, mocking by your peers and a bunch of other bad stuff.


Anyway, for the record, I want to state that I am not affiliated in any way with Mr. Akulla3d, and any opinions expressed in his posts are not shared by me in any way.


Nothing personal dude, I just don’t want to offend the 3D gods ‘n stuff.


But I don’t think I will have to worry about a team of guys at my front door if I just say that I do agree that the D|S renderer, at least when I used it last, was dreadfully and painfully slow.


Hold on, there’s someone at the door….

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Posted: 19 July 2012 03:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 185 ]
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The full 3delight render engine, as you say is the best, or one of the best in the industry..whats lacking is Daz’s woeful implementation of what is in effect 3delight ‘lite’ in studio.


SK.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 186 ]
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I am in no way anywhere near an expert in render engines, but let me attempt to get Mr. Akulla3D off the hook before he gets cross examined by prosecutor Sears….  smile


And if anyone has more knowledge in the matter please correct me…


I think we can all agree that what you see in the final rendered image is a function of far more than solely the work of the “render engine”. Can I get an “amen” on that?


For example it depends upon the type and character of the lights implemented in the software. Some have area and volume lights, some don’t. It also depends on the type and character of the shadows the lights cast, which can vary significantly with application. It also depends on the way materials and shaders have been implemented in the various applications. And the list goes on…


Now, I also believe that the Renderman specification is not an all-encompassing specification. And this is where I’m dredging up my foggy memory from long ago, but I recall it was a specification on the interface between the “making” and “rendering” parts of CG software. And I also recall it was fairly minimal, and left a lot of stuff up to the developers.


So I think that, bottom line, you could hypothetically take a D|S scene, transport it into one of those other Renderman compliant applications, render it right out of the box, and probably get different results. Now, whether the result is better or just different is an entirely separate thread that I want no part of. But I think it’s reasonable to assume that just because they have compliant renderers doesn’t necessarily mean that everything that goes into the resulting image is identical.


So if akulla3D perhaps overstated the “render engine” aspect, I think the basic concept of preferring the rendered output from different applications is fairly reasonable, no?

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Posted: 19 July 2012 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 187 ]
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swordkensia - 19 July 2012 03:47 AM

The full 3delight render engine, as you say is the best, or one of the best in the industry..whats lacking is Daz’s woeful implementation of what is in effect 3delight ‘lite’ in studio.


SK.


Actually, it isn’t “lite”—the render engine is all there, including use of every core in the machine (which isn’t available otherwise without a seriously expensive license).  What isn’t there are some of the command line utilities, and nice presets that help one not well versed in RSL.  This is rapidly changing as one can see with the volume of new shaders being released for the DS GUI interface.  The ability to output RIB has been available for years.  Those willing to modify that code could do so, and those who wanted to take the output into another Renderman engine could also do so.


If one wanted the pieces not shipped with DS then one can go download a full install of 3Delight.  Then all you’re missing is some “cool” presets.


Kendall

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Posted: 19 July 2012 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 188 ]
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I just reset my downloads for Carrara 8 Pro and I got the 8.5 Beta. Why!!!???!!! I needed to install it on my work Mac and when I tried to enter the serial number that is listed in my account, it would not except it. How the heck do I get the previous non beta version?

David

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Posted: 19 July 2012 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 189 ]
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Kendall Sears - 18 July 2012 08:05 AM
akulla3D - 18 July 2012 07:55 AM

It would be nice to see how this all works out.  I might be happy with DS if its render engine didnt suck so much and I don’t try to argue Reality plugin as it is cool but doing special lighting effects and back lighting as far as I can tell are not possible.

Fingers crossed and waiting…....

???  3Delight is Renderman.  As in Certified Compliant.  As in it renders the same way PrRenderman (Pixar), and all other Renderman Compliant renderers are required to.  Shaders follow RSL.  Saying “DS’s renderer sucks” is the same as saying “Renderman sucks.”  Are you willing to go on the record as saying that the Dominant Renderer in use for feature films “sucks?”  Have you even gone to 3Delight’s site?  Did you know that District9 (the movie) was done with 3Delight?  Did you know that more than a few large orgs use the same 3Delight that DS uses from Maya?


What DS lacks is a set of “Uber Cool” presets that make all renders “pop” out of the box.  This is mostly a function of not getting a Renderman expert to create a set of presets, not having a sucky renderer.


EDIT:  Take a look here. http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php/projects  DS uses the same EXACT versions as was used here.


Kendall

Humm seems you are some sort technical historian.  Show me a decent realistic DS render that didnt take 4 days setting up and 3 days of tweeking (reality plug in not allowed).  My BMW 135i has a six cylinder engine in it, and it puts out 300 horse power.  Now my neighbor’s Chryster has a six cylinder engine in it too but it only puts out 105 horse power.  Just cuz you have a—and I quote— “3Delight engine” under the hood doesn’t mean it has enough other accessories to do the job. 

I have plenty of experience using DS—in fact I have been using it since it was a beta here and could never get any decent render out of it.

Now getting back to the real subject at hand.  Where is my Carrara 8.5?

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Posted: 19 July 2012 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 190 ]
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akulla3D - 19 July 2012 02:43 PM
Kendall Sears - 18 July 2012 08:05 AM
akulla3D - 18 July 2012 07:55 AM

It would be nice to see how this all works out.  I might be happy with DS if its render engine didnt suck so much and I don’t try to argue Reality plugin as it is cool but doing special lighting effects and back lighting as far as I can tell are not possible.

Fingers crossed and waiting…....

???  3Delight is Renderman.  As in Certified Compliant.  As in it renders the same way PrRenderman (Pixar), and all other Renderman Compliant renderers are required to.  Shaders follow RSL.  Saying “DS’s renderer sucks” is the same as saying “Renderman sucks.”  Are you willing to go on the record as saying that the Dominant Renderer in use for feature films “sucks?”  Have you even gone to 3Delight’s site?  Did you know that District9 (the movie) was done with 3Delight?  Did you know that more than a few large orgs use the same 3Delight that DS uses from Maya?


What DS lacks is a set of “Uber Cool” presets that make all renders “pop” out of the box.  This is mostly a function of not getting a Renderman expert to create a set of presets, not having a sucky renderer.


EDIT:  Take a look here. http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php/projects  DS uses the same EXACT versions as was used here.


Kendall

Humm seems you are some sort technical historian.  Show me a decent realistic DS render that didnt take 4 days setting up and 3 days of tweeking (reality plug in not allowed).  My BMW 135i has a six cylinder engine in it, and it puts out 300 horse power.  Now my neighbor’s Chryster has a six cylinder engine in it too but it only puts out 105 horse power.  Just cuz you have a—and I quote— “3Delight engine” under the hood doesn’t mean it has enough other accessories to do the job. 

I have plenty of experience using DS—in fact I have been using it since it was a beta here and could never get any decent render out of it.

Now getting back to the real subject at hand.  Where is my Carrara 8.5?


Please provide your definition of “decent realistic” for me and I’ll see what examples I can find for you.  Seriously.


Yeah, a shiny new Carrara8.5 would be nice.


Kendall

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Posted: 19 July 2012 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 191 ]
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Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 03:14 PM

Please provide your definition of “decent realistic” for me and I’ll see what examples I can find for you.


So can I assume from your lack of response to my suppositions about different outputs from similar render engines that you don’t disagree with the premise that they can give different results? Because like I say, I’m certainly not an expert on this stuff, and if I’m off base I’d like to, well, get back on base.


Don’t want to get thrown out by the pitcher.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 192 ]
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Kendall,

besides price or gui, why use one un-biased/realistic renderer over another?

I’ve seen great renders with each…......3Delight, Maxwell, VRay,  Fry, Indigo, Lux, Kerkythea, Mental Ray Octane,  and now Cycles, etc.

Couldn’t find a good comparison besides the Wiki.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 193 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 19 July 2012 05:55 PM
Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 03:14 PM

Please provide your definition of “decent realistic” for me and I’ll see what examples I can find for you.


So can I assume from your lack of response to my suppositions about different outputs from similar render engines that you don’t disagree with the premise that they can give different results? Because like I say, I’m certainly not an expert on this stuff, and if I’m off base I’d like to, well, get back on base.


Don’t want to get thrown out by the pitcher.


Actually, no.  I am collecting references for the inevitible challenge to whatever it is I say.  If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to “published experts.”  I’m culling through information that I have that is available without paying for access… most things Renderman come with a price attached.


RSL and RIB are standarized programming languages with an accepted API, just like C++ or HTML.  Therefore, there are a nominal set of requirements that all “compliant” renderers must meet.  One of which is that the identical code will create nominally the same output.  (For the purposes of the rest of this: “same” == “nominally the same”)  That being that some “statistical variation” is allowed but the results should be the same from all of the standard API.  With that being said, there are “enhancements” allowed to the renderers that are not part of the spec, so renderers are allowed to “specialize.”  However, RSL/RIB code is intended to be portable from one renderer to another and give the same results from the same code when not using proprietary features.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RenderMan_Interface_Specification for a Wiki Article.  Specifically see the section 1.1 on “Required Capabilities”


I have included some pointers to Renderman discussions/articles.  None cover this exact topic, but until I can refer to one that doesn’t require a paid subscription for you to read, I don’t want to give those out.


http://www.3dworldmag.com/2010/01/15/how_to_choose_rendering_software_part_3/
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-800082.html


Kendall

 

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Posted: 19 July 2012 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 194 ]
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Well, I think the choice of what renderer to use depends on a lot of stuff. And yeah, they call can make nice renders, but like I say, most of what you see in a render is a function of a lot of stuff outside the actual render engine itself.


First you have to define what “good” is, and nobody has done that so it comes down to personal preference. The other factor is that many of the renderers you mentioned do different things, and render differently. Some (unbiased) use realistic material types and lights, etc., but take longer to get a usable result. Others render quicker, but use shortcuts to get there, and that is often seen in the results.


It all depends upon what you’re using it for. It’s all about the tool for the task. Bottom line, it depends. But you first have to define what you need in a renderer before you can answer the question. But like I say, nobody does that, so they just look at other peoples’ results and decide, “Ooo, nice render, I need to get me one of those”.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 195 ]
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Kendall Sears - 19 July 2012 07:20 PM

Actually, no.  I am collecting references for the inevitible challenge to whatever it is I say.  If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to “published experts.”  I’m culling through information that I have that is available without paying for access… most things Renderman come with a price attached.


Wow. I appreciate you going to the effort to get the info.


And the fact that I’m asking you directly, and also asking for people to correct me if I’m wrong, means that I definitely will listen to you. Unlike some others here, I am interested in the facts, and learning about stuff. So I’m happy to listen to anyone with real information. It’s just those with irrational opinions who stick to their guns in spite of the facts that I have a problem with.


And really, I have enough respect for your opinion in this area, based on other stuff, that I don’t need a big list of papers. But if you tell me that in fact the Renderman spec is comprehensive, and one Renderman will render a given scene the same as the next, I’ll believe it. Honestly, all the detailed C++ programming stuff is so far beyond me that it wouldn’t help anyway….

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