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3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread
Posted: 10 October 2013 09:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 211 ]
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sorry, I was trying to edit last post and double posted

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Posted: 11 October 2013 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 212 ]
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Takeo.Kensei - 10 October 2013 12:18 PM


I wouldn’t activate SSS on anything else than skin but that is your choice

 

Why would that be Takeo, I use it on the eyes, nails, teeth, basically anything that SSS properties.

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Posted: 11 October 2013 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 213 ]
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I have tried saving material presets as both compressed and uncompressed and tbis did not help me either. What is that option for anyway which should we be using?

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Posted: 12 October 2013 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 214 ]
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Type 0 Negative - 11 October 2013 06:05 PM

I have tried saving material presets as both compressed and uncompressed and tbis did not help me either. What is that option for anyway which should we be using?

Richard answered this in another thread, “Compress makes the file smaller by applying GZip compression. On a preset it won’t make a huge difference, but on morph assets and figure assets it can save a lot of space.”

dead skin issue resulted from the nails sss settings

refraction and scale, messing with those settings on the nails to match the settings I had applied to the skin screwed everything up. changing the color even messes with the skin. not sure why this is but leaving the sss settings like this fixed it for me; that is the best I can do to explain I was only tinkering with the nails and somehow the nail settings caused the skin to change.

The group still has me confused though, I have made changes to the group and seen no difference in renders,
I think the right thing to do is leave group set to 0 for everything on the figure, in this case Dawn, making her skin, teeth, eyes, nails, etc all with group set to 0 if I am understanding correctly.

However in this case you, I guess would need to set an additional figure, for example her bikini, if using sss, to group 1
I’m guessing that is the right thing to do however several test renders showed no difference? I had Dawns settings all a 0 and her bikini at 0 test rendered then made the bikini group 1, test render and it looked the same.

Am I still not understanding something?

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Posted: 13 October 2013 01:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 215 ]
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Little memo : Compressing the preset or anything else is used to save space but doesn’t change any funtionnality. I only save uncompressed when I know I’ll need to edit some files with a text editor. Most of the time it’s a good thing to save compressed

About SSS groups, it works like this :

All surface having the same Group ID are considered as the same closed surface and when rendering 3delight will apply the same calculations on it
If many surfaces have the same ID but different parameters, only one set of parameters will be used. I don’t know which one is chosen amoung them.

So for all the skin, apply one ID, for eyes, apply another, for teeth, apply another, for nails, apply another (like 0,1,2,3)
If you have many characters, each of their surface must have a different surface group ID. If not, you may have some strange renders

If you don’t want to deal with surface group then render in Point Cloud mode. It’s quicker, and saves from the ID Group messing problem.

@Szark : I don’t put SSS on eyes, teeth, nails because I don’t see SSS on these parts when I look at people. Translucency is visible on these parts only when you don’t have anything behind and on close up renders, which is not the case most of the time. And SSS calculations eat render time so, when not needed I’ll save myself from doing unecessary calculations.

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Posted: 13 October 2013 05:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 216 ]
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Fair comment Takeo

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Posted: 17 October 2013 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 217 ]
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jimzombie - 06 September 2013 06:58 AM

Hey guys. Hey Mustakettu85, didn’t realise you were a regular over here.
... I’ve also been doing a lot of crazy Bouce GI stuff with UberEnv.

Hi Jim! About as regular as a rain in the desert, actually LOL And there’s some neat stuff you’re squeezing out of the UE2Bounce, especially that thing with the point-cloud rendertime script… I gotta take a closer look at the script code, what if it transfers the whole GI thing into the point cloud, not just ambient occlusion?! It had never occurred to me to test the script with any IDL/GI mode.

...there’s some funny comments to your renders over there on dA smile One thing I never understood about CG, is why people keep blaming the software, not their skills. I would say that no traditional artist would blame their paints or pencils for their inability to produce “lifelike” shading =) Good materials make for easier execution, but no expensive brush will paint by itself.

 

Takeo.Kensei - 09 September 2013 01:07 PM

...you have to have some knowledge or at least a material property database somewhere to rely on.

Hi Takeo! Yeah, that sort of a material property database is something that I’d love to see. Even if we are using “cheat” shaders. It’s still great to have a less biased source to work from than just eyes.

And what I’d also love to have is a visual chart for Fresnel effects with various refraction indices. All the omnifreaker shaders have a very weird way of controlling Fresnel and the shader mixer brick I´m not sure I found the right formula to calculate its refraction ratio input. So I’d love to have a pictorial “database” to test and calibrate them against. I have Carrara 6, but I’m not sure it does Fresnel correctly?..

Takeo.Kensei - 09 September 2013 01:07 PM

There you’ve done a pretty skin and for not too realistic render it’s OK. But if you look for realism, then I think it’s a no go unless you programmatically break the uniformity
I’ve made some “almost” skin procedural shaders too.

Thanks! And yeah, you’re right, I can’t imagine a 100% procedural solution looking close enough to fool people… unless there is at least a sort of a distribution map for different procedural algorithms…

And I’d say everyone here would want to see your shaders (constantly evolving, right?), so… you should probably whip out those cropping scissors =D

Takeo.Kensei - 13 October 2013 01:25 AM

If you don’t want to deal with surface group then render in Point Cloud mode. It’s quicker, and saves from the ID Group messing problem.

Soooo… so that script does enable point cloud for everything we throw at it? Or are you talking about writing pointcloud scripts of our own?

 

Type 0 Negative - 07 September 2013 08:05 AM

Thanks also for posting your aoa sss settings, I saved them and will try to set them up this weekend and do some test.

Hi! You’re definitely most welcome! This AoA Subsurface is a very complicated shader, since it’s so complex and has all those features… maybe a bit too complex.

I actually have run into this whole nail issue, too - with other shaders as well. Even if all the SSS settings are totally the same, there is still a visible difference if the GroupID is different between nail and skin surfaces. It can be used artistically, though, I believe.

Here’s an example… please note the shadows that appear around the nails when they are “separate” from the skin.

And yeah, Takeo is completely right, if the SSS settings are different but the GroupID is the same, unpredictable things may happen.

EDIT: IIRC, at least for omnifreaker’s shaders, GroupID of 0 meant that the shader would decide automatically if the meshes are the same object or separate ones. I have not used this “automatic” feature for a looon time, so I can’t really say how well it works. I usually err on the side of caution and apply different IDs to different surfaces and different meshes, but this may not be necessary. I would say that the renderer will differentiate between a human figure and its clothing, even if their surfaces have the same ID…

Just in case there are people lurking here who have never come across docs for omnifreaker’s shaders, here they are again… there is some useful info there:
http://www.omnifreaker.com/index.php?title=Products

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Posted: 17 October 2013 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 218 ]
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Mustakettu85 - 17 October 2013 10:29 AM
Takeo.Kensei - 13 October 2013 01:25 AM

If you don’t want to deal with surface group then render in Point Cloud mode. It’s quicker, and saves from the ID Group messing problem.

Soooo… so that script does enable point cloud for everything we throw at it? Or are you talking about writing pointcloud scripts of our own?

 

Yes the DS Scripted render Pointcloud mode does the job. Just disable the Occlusion light if you don’t want an additional light in your render

Taken from 3delight Manual :
There is no more subsurface groups: groups are implicitly declared by the geometry rendered
and baked in the point-cloud file.

As for my shaders, I didn’t do anything since a few month. Too much work and was too tired most of the time or busy with other things. But I’m a nice guy I took the cissors and did the job and made a sort of panorama (Thanks to XnView which was very handy there)

If you want a look at something see here and here. It’s too big to post in the forum. There are various tests and got some cool accidents sometimes

I add two renders here. The first one is one I cropped the head. Why? because with my unrealistic head morph it can distract from judging the shader. That’s what I thought when I looked at it earlier. Because when I rendered it, at that time I thought it was not good. But seeing it today I think it’s not so bad.

Second one is some playing with NPR shading with Sin City cartoon comic in mind. Question for people having PWtoon : can you achieve this type of render easily?

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Posted: 17 October 2013 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 219 ]
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Don’t think I got any good Noir presets for pwToon, should be doable, but I would have to dabble with it. I got quite decent Cel Shaders for pwToon (Crescent’s presets). The only good Sin City style presets I got are for the Visual Style shaders.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 220 ]
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Thanks for the answer Renpatsu

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Posted: 17 October 2013 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 221 ]
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Not really close, yet, but at least it is sort of heading in the right direction with pwToon.

Edit: Added one more try before sleepy time smile The last try is actually the top one.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 222 ]
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Gedd - 09 October 2013 02:22 PM

It looks like you might be linking from a general thread to a member only thread with the image link.

Sorry about that. I didn’t realize that people couldn’t see it. Here’s the image I was trying to link to, and the original comment I made about it.


————
Here’s a render using 2 lights ( a spotlight and a softbox) with a non-SSS skin that I added the AoA-SSS shader to. The skin was originally pretty pale, but I darkened it with a dark red-brown color (and the diffuse texture) in the SSS color channel to get a more ethnic look. The base SSS settings were Skin A.

It doesn’t show the make-up, because the face is obscured, and there’s a lot of shadow, but I like how the tattoo came out with a realistic softness that doesn’t look painted on, and the skin has a good sheen from the specular 2 channel.

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Posted: 17 October 2013 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 223 ]
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Very nice.

The leather looks new as the specular is very uniform and the materials/surfaces are very smooth. Adding a cloud/noise b/w to the spec channel with something in the displacement to rough it up (besides the grain that’s there) would break the leather in some if you wanted that effect. If you prefer a stylized look then it’s perfect the way it is. The skin looks very nice. smile

Forgot to mention, I really like the lighting also.

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Posted: 20 October 2013 03:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 224 ]
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Mustakettu85 - 17 October 2013 10:29 AM
jimzombie - 06 September 2013 06:58 AM

Hey guys. Hey Mustakettu85, didn’t realise you were a regular over here.
... I’ve also been doing a lot of crazy Bouce GI stuff with UberEnv.

Hi Jim! About as regular as a rain in the desert, actually LOL And there’s some neat stuff you’re squeezing out of the UE2Bounce, especially that thing with the point-cloud rendertime script… I gotta take a closer look at the script code, what if it transfers the whole GI thing into the point cloud, not just ambient occlusion?! It had never occurred to me to test the script with any IDL/GI mode.

...there’s some funny comments to your renders over there on dA smile One thing I never understood about CG, is why people keep blaming the software, not their skills. I would say that no traditional artist would blame their paints or pencils for their inability to produce “lifelike” shading =) Good materials make for easier execution, but no expensive brush will paint by itself.

Hah, yeah I see that you are an irregular. I’m an irregular regular here. I’ve actually been meaning to get back to running some tests with the point-cloud and bounce settings. I’ve been reading up a bit about how the various GI methods, point cloud stuff, elementary shader stuff etc for 3Delight. I’m no script writer or programer, so it all makes a certain amount of sense, but I doubt I’d be able to do much with it without a hell of a lot more work. I was looking at Uber’s exported code but couldn’t really make much sense of how it was working.

And yeah, it never ceases to amaze me how many DS/Poser users really have no idea how good 3Delight really is. I guess it comes down to the fact that people just don’t know what they don’t know, and the less you know the more you don’t know what you don’t know. ,,,something like that lol

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Posted: 20 October 2013 04:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 225 ]
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The point-based occlusion script is really a must have for me as long as I want to render bounce light or indirect lighting. It cuts the time needed for the rendering down to a relative tiny, acceptable portion - usually in the 20-30 minutes realm compared to hours. There is a certain quality difference between the point-based occlusion script and regular 3Delight mode of DS, but that is really neglectable or can be adjusted - like the brightness/darkness of the occlusion shadows.

In my view the point-based occlusion should probably be the primary mode of rendering and not the other way round, but I guess many don’t like to experiment with the multitude of additional options and there are some mistakes to be made there (like having the simple AO light of the render script on top of UE2).

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