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3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread
Posted: 28 August 2013 08:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 181 ]
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I think you could do to lower the shading scale a bit. Generally I put it around 1-1.5. Easiest way to test is stick a distant light behind your character set its power to 200%, shadows to raytrace and render. The chest should be mostly dark and the ears super transparent, if not then you should lower the shading scale. Observe below, one oft hose poor Genesis’ seems to be lacking in a skeleton and organs!

The character certainly looks pale but not too washed out, I think I probably have less color and I’m certainly real. If you are worried about the texture losing too much detail, have you plugged the diffuse textures as the subsurface image? I generally do that plus a little pink for my subsurface color, at the very least it helps dark eyebrows stay dark.

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Posted: 28 August 2013 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 182 ]
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Thanks for the input. Glad to see this thread is still alive.

Kamion99 - 28 August 2013 08:27 PM

I think you could do to lower the shading scale a bit. Generally I put it around 1-1.5

I have SSS scale at around 0.75, so quite a bit lower. I don’t see that much of difference in SSS shading rate between 1 to 4.

Kamion99 - 28 August 2013 08:27 PM

The character certainly looks pale but not too washed out, I think I probably have less color and I’m certainly real. If you are worried about the texture losing too much detail, have you plugged the diffuse textures as the subsurface image? I generally do that plus a little pink for my subsurface color, at the very least it helps dark eyebrows stay dark.

That’s probably to me overdriving the gamma/gain too much. After some tinkering, I’ve tone it down so it’s just a tad darker and the color of the diffuse textures are generally ‘retained).

I’m using the hemoglobin map on the subsurface color slot and try to avoid plugging the diffuse map there. The SSS effect on eyebrows (and other parts) are controlled with a separate SSS strength map which I plugged into the SSS strength slot.

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Posted: 30 August 2013 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 183 ]
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Are there any merchant resource skin shaders for the new aoa sss that is built into ds?

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Posted: 30 August 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 184 ]
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Type 0 Negative - 30 August 2013 10:14 AM

Are there any merchant resource skin shaders for the new aoa sss that is built into ds?

Haven’t seen one here and I doubt there’s one on other marketplaces. But shouldn’t you be able to use the various available SSS maps? I do find it easier to make your SSS strength maps. Just take the diffuse/color texture, make it grayscale and fiddle around with the brightness/contrast and levels until the areas you don’t want heavy (or any) SSS is black and everything else white.

Albedo/hemoglobin maps do need more manual manipulation though.

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Posted: 30 August 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 185 ]
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wowie - 30 August 2013 10:51 AM
Type 0 Negative - 30 August 2013 10:14 AM

Are there any merchant resource skin shaders for the new aoa sss that is built into ds?

Haven’t seen one here and I doubt there’s one on other marketplaces. But shouldn’t you be able to use the various available SSS maps? I do find it easier to make your SSS strength maps. Just take the diffuse/color texture, make it grayscale and fiddle around with the brightness/contrast and levels until the areas you don’t want heavy (or any) SSS is black and everything else white.

Albedo/hemoglobin maps do need more manual manipulation though.

I mean for the slider/dial-spin stuff. It feels like I got a piano that is not in tune and I cant find someone to tune it for me.

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Posted: 02 September 2013 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 186 ]
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Type 0 Negative - 30 August 2013 01:37 PM

I mean for the slider/dial-spin stuff. It feels like I got a piano that is not in tune and I cant find someone to tune it for me.

These may be what you mean? Basically, some presets for the shader.
http://www.daz3d.com/shaders-materials/subsurface-toolbox
http://www.daz3d.com/shaders-materials/subsurface-goop-shaders
http://www.daz3d.com/shaders-materials/subsurface-gummy-plastic-shaders

 

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Posted: 02 September 2013 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 187 ]
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kind of, I am afraid to look at those though because they are not merchant resources, infringement fear

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Posted: 05 September 2013 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 188 ]
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Type 0 Negative - 30 August 2013 01:37 PM

I mean for the slider/dial-spin stuff. It feels like I got a piano that is not in tune and I cant find someone to tune it for me.

I’ve posted some settings I came up with for AoA’s SSS earlier in this thread, feel free to do with them whatever you want. If anything’s not clear, ask away, either here or through PMs. This shader is fairly capricious, BTW, as far as its interaction with lights goes (this is why all those little lightsets on my sharecg); a bit later I will be testing if it’s due to AoA’s particular implementation or if it’s inherited from the actual SSS brick in Shader Mixer.

What I mean is that it generally works great with simpler ”basic” lighting, like distant or spot lights, UE2 with omnifreaker’s default IBL maps etc. But it reacts much stronger to changing that one IBL map than my go-to US2.

I hope to have the first part of my long-overdue ”SSS treatise” online in a few weeks (real life keeps getting in the way, and US2’s SSS controls apparently have no actual documentation that I could find… so I’m still doing tests to see exactly what the effects of the parameters are). And then I will get down to business regarding the SSS brick thing; this will be part II.


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wowie - 28 August 2013 09:01 PM

The SSS effect on eyebrows (and other parts) are controlled with a separate SSS strength map which I plugged into the SSS strength slot.

The lady looks great, Wowie! As I said, a delicate flower. Now I’ve read you’re using higher scales, it makes sense how you achieved that.
The gentleman a few posts above is probably a bit too shiny, but I guess it’s because you’re using HSS which does not do Fresnel attenuation of specular… IMO it’s pretty much indispensable unless you’re willing to ”cheat” with a lower spec overall and a set of spec-only lights in strategic places =) A reflection map set to Fresnel also helps, but it gives a different look.

But. I would love to dare you. Try getting real black eyebrows or black ”goth” makeup with a SSS strength map on a single-level shader, like the HSS you’re using. Make it as black as on the diffuse map. I failed at that. Can you? Please?


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Takeo.Kensei - 24 June 2013 11:57 AM

That’s a bit more complicated as just specifying one scatter color for the overall skin and wanting to get something realistic
...
The most accurate way would be to use Luxrender or some other unbiased engine…So cheating is the best thing to do.

Hi Takeo!
I quit LuxRender for good, it’s too much like photography. It’s for someone else (for those who can take a good photo, it´s an awesome tool). So yeah, ”cheating” is what I prefer – if anything, it’s much, much more flexible than anything. But they way I prefer to do it, it’s more like ”physically-based cheating” for lack of a better word. When it comes to lighting, I try to pretend I’m going for ”realism” - all lights (including specular-only ones, even though their very existence is a ”cheat”) casting shadows, environment lights using maps, etc. But. When it comes to surfaces, I want them to have ”tangible” properties. More like a Plato-like ”idea” than its ”shadow” in the ”real world” =) So I tend to exaggerrate those surface qualities that I find distinctive. Am I making any sense? It’s one of those aspects that is incredibly hard for me to put into words, since it bypasses conscious evaluation. It’s ”seeing and reproducing”. But what exactly _my_ eye sees might well be different from anyone else’s!

Takeo.Kensei - 24 June 2013 11:57 AM

US2 should be better than US

It is. It’s just that the actual docs is fairly sparse. I’m trying to write a concise guide to meaningful fiddling with the SSS parameters of it, but I fear that even if it had the best docs in the world, it would still be an area where only experience can help achieve desired effects without that endless tweak-rerender-tweak cycle. There are several handy presets provided by default which are a good starting point for many of the materials imaginable, though.

Takeo.Kensei - 24 June 2013 11:57 AM

Finally as for inpiring picture I don’t know. I made so many test renders (just looked at one folder : 1183 files 789 Mo) Do you like rabbits ? (PS there is a point light behind the green rabbit that is why it glows)

These are awesome rabbits =) And thanks for the links to the classic test models! I should be using them for Part II of my ”treatise” =)

Takeo.Kensei - 24 June 2013 11:57 AM

As for procedural skin shader I’m not sure it is a good idea because it will be a bit monotonous. Using a map is still the best way to break it.

You see, it kinda depends. For closeups and ”photorealism”, then you’re absolutely right, you just cannot replace a photo texture. But for what I do… which does not really have closeups that often, and which tends to be, I don’t know… ”hyper”-real, as I tried to describe above… I think it should be okay. Especially for toons.
Take a look: it’s a morphed version of Sixus1’s HER, and it uses procedurally generated noise maps. These are not procedural shaders, it’s US2 with two maps plugged into the bump channel (no other maps): one for lips and another one for the rest of the skin surfaces. Random noise maps generated in Paint.NET.
So I think that for my purposes, a procedural shader should be great. It should have more flexibility than pre-generated noise maps.

Tech specs:

UberSurface2

only Layer1 used, only parameters of active channels listed (others are off)

Diffuse:
white, 5% strength

Bump:
Noise map generated in Paint.NET
min -0.04, max 0.02

Fresnel:
90% strength, falloff 2

Specular:
(67, 118, 146), 175% strength, glossiness 10%

SSS:
“Skin2” preset, 100% strength, scale 0.1, shading rate 2

 

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Posted: 05 September 2013 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 189 ]
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Kamion99 - 20 August 2013 08:12 PM


I do have a question for anyone who can help. Is there any way to control the order things show up in the shader panel? Also some categories refuse to be hidden, they just go grey, is there any way to fix this?

The shader looks ultra cool!
As for the shader panel, you mean the actual interface of the finished shader? Try clicking on the “Properties” tab in the ShaderMixer window, the one next to “brickyard”. There you can see the parts of the user interface. Each of them has that little gear that opens up a dropdown menu that has “Parameter settings”. Then you can edit that part which says “Path”, it should move things around. At least, a similar way used to work for that in DS3 =)

As for things that refuse to be hidden… if they aren’t supposed to be user-changeable, I remember reading that you could plug a “value” utility brick into their inputs.
Hope that helps!

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Posted: 06 September 2013 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 190 ]
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Hey guys. Hey Mustakettu85, didn’t realise you were a regular over here.

This is a great thread. My current project is trying to get some good materials for Dawn. The ones she comes with are pretty… not good. Might have something to share on that front soon. I’ve also been doing a lot of crazy Bouce GI stuff with UberEnv. That really chews up those CPU cycles, especially if you use a touch of reflection and up the trace distances to simulate more light bounces.

http://fav.me/d68mkk2 http://fav.me/d68z32u

Can’t say I fully understood the trace distance setting when I first started out, but I think I get it now.

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Posted: 07 September 2013 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 191 ]
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Mustakettu85 good to hear from you I’m sorry I have not got around to packing up and uploading your pw edit, I don’t mind if you do it it, I thought I would have done it sooner.

Thanks also for posting your aoa sss settings, I saved them and will try to set them up this weekend and do some test.

thanks again

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Posted: 09 September 2013 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 192 ]
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@wowie : your last render seems better. Got to see her with a complete render with different lightnings and in ootdoor as well as indoor environement. With nothing around, it’s not enough to jugde but it’s a good start

@Type 0 Negative : I rarely use the same preset twice without tweaking it. In fact you should tweak the shader to your liking depending on the color of the skin and above all, the shader to use and the features used depend on the lightning. The problem is that depending on the map color, the way the texture artist worked, you don’t have the preset working the same way

@JimZombie : I don’t find Dawn’s map so bad. I just found the SSS settings strange : the diffuse map is plugged in the SSS and in another one too (don’t remember which) . But you still can get good render if lighted correctly. Just tweak

@Mustakettu85 : Glad to see you there. You’re quite the active one when you come smile
I don’t play that much with Lux. Too slow and I prefer Blender’s Cycle Engine. The interactive render and the node system is pretty comfortable to work with. I also play a lot with 3delight shaders. Tor the tweak/render/tweak/render cycle, it’s pretty much a must do. There is no other way with non physically plausible shaders. If they were plausible, then you could use real world values that would ease the process, but still you have to have some knowledge or at least a material property database somewhere to rely on.

There you’ve done a pretty skin and for not too realistic render it’s OK. But if you look for realism, then I think it’s a no go unless you programmatically break the uniformity
I’ve made some “almost” skin procedural shaders too. I say almost because I still use the diffuse map but there is not much detail left. Have to do some cropping before posting to conform to forum rule (yeah I don’t really bother putting some cloth on the characters for skin test)

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Posted: 05 October 2013 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 193 ]
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I was experimenting with HSS and I don’t see Fresnel doing anything.
I made sure Fresnel Active is turned on, I changes the Strength, Falloff and Sharpness values several different ways and did renders and never seen any visible differences.

What am I missing?

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Posted: 06 October 2013 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 194 ]
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Have you tried comparing the reflection from multiple angles to see if the resnel is actually doing something?

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Posted: 06 October 2013 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 195 ]
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I’ve just stumbled upon something that might prove to be very useful. To be honest I haven’t tested it a great deal yet, but combining uberenvironment bounce with point based occlusion is doing something very interesting. This scene uses a single mesh light (and the other already mentioned tools). Figure and textures have no nipples or genitals so I’m guessing it is safe to post.

Image removed, Please see this thread http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewannounce/3279_97/

Edit: Link to image. Site has filters and image is flagged as having mature content http://jim-zombie.deviantart.com/#/art/Newborn-version2-1-405474178?hf=1

Here’s a clay (grey rendering no textures) for in case you can’t or don’t want to see the above http://jim-zombie.deviantart.com/art/Better-Stronger-Faster-study-of-ambient-occlusion-405248528

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