this product has NOT been tested in daz!

revenger681revenger681 Posts: 153
edited April 2013 in Daz Studio Discussion

What is the general risk of using/buying a product with this type of warning? Would it be material not aligning right, pose/bone movement not working correctly? A prop I want to get is a water spray prop... It's just a clear stream with bones so that you can direct the water in a certain direction, or have it arch out as if it were from a sprinkler or hose.

It Is the only prop of its kind I've found, but the author says he has no interest in DAZ, his prop was made and tested only in poser. I just want to know what issues I could run into, or if there would even be any issues.


Thanks!

P.S.
I don't know why a moddler would choose to be hostile towards daz .... I mean it's just about the same as poser, and excluding us cuts his market in half.

Post edited by revenger681 on
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Comments

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    DAZ has a decent return policy, which gives one the option to test it out and if it doesn't work return it. I wouldn't try that with other stores though as some specifically state they will not 'be responsible' ...

    And, they aren't being hostile towards DAZ, they simply aren't going to the extra effort to test and make it work in DAZ Studio.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    If it's a .pp2 or .cr2 prop, it'll probably work, but the shaders or mats won't. There are some good free water shaders for DS now, though (Fisty's come to mind, and I've done some at ShareCG, too).


    My rule of thumb is not to pay more than $10 for a "not tested in DAZ" product given the amount of work I'll usually have to do with the shaders.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited April 2013

    Well in my case, part of the decision rests on the quality, amount of work and detail of the base mesh. I actually just did an example of this here.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Well in my case, part of the decision rests on the quality, amount of work and detail of the base mesh.

    For me that determines whether I'm willing to pay $10 or $5. If they didn't do the work there's no guarantee it will work properly and there's no guarantee I can get the money back if it's not from DAZ.


    I should clarify what I mean by "the shaders won't work," though. A .pz2 preset will load in DS. It just won't look right.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    I agree for the most part. Especially the part about buying from other stores. In the example cited, I did about 20 minutes of work to adjust the shaders, but most of them weren't terrible to start with.

  • revenger681revenger681 Posts: 153
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the reply!
    If the mats or shaders won't work then maybe I'll pass.... Is just a great looking prop... Useful in scenes with sinks, water pipes, fountains, etc. I've always wanted a water prop with 5-7 bones to make it arch, trickle, or shoot out like a fire hose and I've yet to find anything like it so far.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited April 2013

    Thanks for the reply!
    If the mats or shaders won't work then maybe I'll pass.... Is just a great looking prop... Useful in scenes with sinks, water pipes, fountains, etc. I've always wanted a water prop with 5-7 bones to make it arch, trickle, or shoot out like a fire hose and I've yet to find anything like it so far.

    That's not outside the realm of possibility. Was this somewhere you can link it? I can probably make a DS pack of water jets with bones, but I'd like not to copy their product directly. (Or you can send me a link via PM if it's not forum-friendly.)

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Well one of the things you can do is ask people if they've used to product in DAZ Studio and what their experience was. With the current 'our store vs their store' most places have adopted now however I would do it in the forum of the store that is selling the item.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Cross-post. That ofc could work out the best :)

  • revenger681revenger681 Posts: 153
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the replies guys, I'll send Sickle a PM.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Btw, it occurred to me that I agree with SickleYield for another reason. By the time a mesh is good enough I would consider risking buying it untested, fixing the shaders could be that much more complex to fix, and therefore negate the whole thing based on that. So yes, it would probably be pretty rare I'd pay $10 or more for something that stated it was not tested in DAZ.

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I generally look at the readme (if it is at a site that has those). Look for things that rely on Poser Dynamics, the material room, python, etc. Those are all non-starters for the DS-only user.

    I've bought plenty of poser only or "not tested in DAZ Studio" items and made them look good (if I say so myself LOL) in DS, but it does have a cost associated.

    Here's one of my better Xurge3D conversions... (as a bonus, I often given away my DS Mat presets for various things, see my .sig below)

    flamewalker01_zpw.jpg
    819 x 1000 - 311K
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited April 2013

    That's beautiful. And Xurge's stuff is the best example of something I would pay the most for specifically because everyone who's ever mentioned it has always said it worked excellent for them. (Not to discount the great job you did here especially with the leather.) I haven't purchased any yet because I would want to get it at least 50% off specifically for the reason I would have to go through and redo the shaders.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • Proxima ShiningProxima Shining Posts: 1,001
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    That's beautiful. And Xurge's stuff is the best example of something I would pay the most for specifically because everyone who's ever mentioned it has always said it worked excellent for them. (Not to discount the great job you did here especially with the leather.) I haven't purchased any yet because I would want to get it at least 50% off specifically for the reason I would have to go through and redo the shaders.

    Xurge had a 50% sale recently. It was near the end of March or at the beginning of April, if I recall correctly. Subscribe to his newsletter to get info about sales, if you haven´t already. Sadly, Xurge always has sales, when I am short of money due to overlaping DAZ sales...

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Proxima :)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    I buy his stuff on sale for conversion as well. It has beautiful geometry.

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I buy his stuff on sale for conversion as well. It has beautiful geometry.
    Although sometimes his bump/displacement maps are just desaturated texture maps (this is a pet peeve of mine and he's not the only one who does this by a looooong shot).

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited April 2013

    I had examples in this thread using the texture maps for multiple functions, not just displacement, and one can actually go a long way with that... but that was for doing a quick fix of a prop that didn't have anything in those channels. PA's should actually create maps for specific functions when it's an item one is going to sell I believe also. But at least that is fixable, whereas bad geometry is much less so.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • Proxima ShiningProxima Shining Posts: 1,001
    edited December 1969

    Gedd - conveniently for you, Xurge 3D 2013 Anniversary Sale just started today !!!

    All products in his store are on sale for 50% off during the month of May, except for items released in the last 4 months.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Hehe, ty.. :)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    Gedd - conveniently for you, Xurge 3D 2013 Anniversary Sale just started today !!!

    All products in his store are on sale for 50% off during the month of May, except for items released in the last 4 months.

    Ohai, armors!

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 2,408
    edited December 1969

    Xurge's products might need some tweaks on the material setting but other than that they work perfectly well in DAZ Studio and the gen 3 items convert well to use with Genesis too.

  • BejaymacBejaymac Posts: 1,043
    edited December 1969

    Smart morphs and which version of Poser something was rigged in are the main things to watch out for, as those require the most work to make DS compatible, after that it's just the usual stuff, like Poser dynamics, and procedural shaders that you need to watch for.

  • edited May 2013

    Speaking as a content creator... I have myself, in the past, marked things as "not tested in D/S" or "Poser-only", usually with a small explanation as to WHY I am marking it that way.

    Example : I have a set of textures for one of Evil Innocence's dresses available on Content Paradise. They are marked as "Poser-only" however, because SOME of the dress textures rely on Poser material room mats for certain parts of the dress, and use .jpg image maps for others. Other textures in the set are image maps only and would work fine in both programs.

    But because some of the zones use some Poser material room settings, I have marked that set as "Poser Only" with the reasons as to why listed on the product page. The reason I do this, is because I do not want to see a Studio-only user buy the package and then discover the hard way that not all of the textures will work properly inside of Studio.

    It's MY way of trying to be courteous to Studio-only users, so that they know what they're getting and don't get any nasty surprises. It's not my being hostile to Studio. I would love to make Studio MATs for the textures I make. I can't. I have yet to be able to figure out how to really USE Studio. I have it, but I've only managed a little fumbling and lucky strikes once in a blue moon with it. I can't seem to figure out how to do Daz materials, or make distributable Daz MATs for things. I'd love to do some Genesis supporting stuff. Again, I can't figure out how. So it goes un-made.

    So, when content I've made uses Poser-specific material room presets and shaders, I always mark the item (whether it's free or not) as a "poser-only", so that Studio users don't have a nasty surprise when they open the box.

    I hope this explains a little... I promise, it's not hostility to the Daz folks. The program is NOT the easiest for a Poser native to grasp, let alone be able to produce content with. It takes me two minutes to make a MAT file for Poser using just a basic jpg image texture. I might fuss with the material settings for a few days if I'm using Poser materials, but when I'm ready to make the MAT file itself - again, it takes about two minutes.

    Conversely, I've spent HOURS inside of Studio and still can't even figure out the material room, let alone how to export useable content to distribute! (And I'm referring to shaders/materials, not assigning image maps as textures here.) Even if I have a product that I've made a basic jpg image texture for... if I use Studio to put it together, it gets stuck in Scene-File-Hell because I haven't been able to sort out how to export a usable file type to distribute it yet.

    LOL, prime example of this, is I'm even only in this forum right now because of an issue I'm having trying to make the Teens work with Genesis... and happened to see this thread along the way!

    Post edited by Seliah (Childe of Fyre) on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    Seliah said:
    Speaking as a content creator... I have myself, in the past, marked things as "not tested in D/S" or "Poser-only", usually with a small explanation as to WHY I am marking it that way.

    Example : I have a set of textures for one of Evil Innocence's dresses available on Content Paradise. They are marked as "Poser-only" however, because SOME of the dress textures rely on Poser material room mats for certain parts of the dress, and use .jpg image maps for others. Other textures in the set are image maps only and would work fine in both programs.

    I personally appreciate products being clearly marked as this. What's annoying is when Poser vendors claim something is "functional in DAZ" when what they mean is "won't crash it but it's sure going to look terrible because I didn't do custom mats." When it says "not tested" or "doesn't work in DAZ," I know the vendor is being level with me.


    Unfortunately Poser users at Rendo don't seem to feel the same way - I get scolded periodically via PM over my cessation of Poser support. They don't want to hear why, they just want to yell at me in print. As you can imagine, this really doesn't enthuse me about attracting more of them as customers. I imagine you're feeling similarly about the Studio users you hear from. This is in all cases a pity, because neither of us is hearing from the best and brightest of the other camp's users.

  • edited May 2013

    I'm one of those who was greatly disappointed to see you go over totally to Genesis content. I really very much enjoyed your work, and as I am struggling horribly with Studio, just can't justify spending a lot of money on Genesis items. Maybe if I can ever get the hang of the program, I will. But I would never have the audacity to scold another vendor or content creator over lack of support for one particular program. To me that is not only rude and inconsiderate, but.. how dare they? We all provide content and support for the programs we are best able to use. For some of us that is Poser, and some of us it is Studio. And I know for myself, personally, I would never, EVER release something to the general public if I wasn't sure about the content. I'd much rather see "Sorry, I don't have the knowledge for that program to provide it's supporting files for my product" than open the box and find out that the quality is crappy while the page said "yep, works in both Studio and Poser!"

    As far as the content creation though - I can't say I've had a lot of folks yelling at me through text about the lack of DS support. I have had a few notable exceptions to that over the years, but I really just tune them out. I do understand the lack of desire to attract the other half of the community if that's the main (or loudest) example of them you've had, though.

    For me, it's more a matter of... I just can't seem to get a grasp on the program well enough to do the Studio MATs, and I don't have close enough ties to any fluent Studio users/creators, so... I can't say, give one of them a texture pack and have someone make Studio MATs for the package.

    I think a lot of the cross-program hostility is nonsense, really. It's so unnecessary. Both programs are excellent and valid methods and tools. Both programs have their pros and their cons. For instance, I absolutely LOVE the way Studio handles lighting. Poser's lighting rig is so infuriating I barely have the words for it at times. (LOL). On the flip-side though, I can't stand the way Studio handles it's content installation, or it's material room, and have an immense amount of difficulty just figuring out how the heck to install content for it (such as the Teens for Genesis... which no matter what I do, I cannot seem to get them to work, let alone have their content even appear inside of Studio's folders...)

    Likewise, Poser is very bulky, and resource-intensive, and loaded with memory holes. Studio handles memory in a much more efficient, smoother manner. But the interface in Poser I find is a lot more intuitive and clear-cut, whereas i really am fumbling around inside of Studio trying to learn it's interface.

    All of that being said... and please bear in mind, I started doing this stuff back around the time Poser 4 was the main program, Victoria 2 and Michael 2 were just hitting the market, and the community was in the midst of the changeover from the Poser4 female and male to the V2/M2 figures.

    That much being said - I'm a Poser native user, and only with this last version of DS was I even able to finally handle wandering around the interface without wanting to throw my computer out of a fourth story window. So, I am very late in the game learning it, and as such... cannot provide much support for Studio-specific items, such as Genesis, or Studio MATs.

    When I release content, I try to be considerate and very up front with what the user is getting. If I don't think it's quality enough, I won't release it at all. If I think it's okay, maybe a few 'bugs' in it, still worth releasing, I might release it as a freebie, with a disclaimer statement warning people what I think is wrong with the item, so they know up front.

    Likewise, if I know my textures aren't compatible in Studio.. I mark it as Poser-only and let folks know that the textures likely won't work inside of Studio, so they are aware of what's inside the box before they shell out for it, or take the time to try and install it. If altering the textures isn't their cup of tea, they are forewarned, and have the option to move onto something else that won't require extensive texture work inside of Studio.

    By the same token, I very much DO appreciate it when content creators make mention that a product is Studio-only. For the same reasons- it lets me know up front that I may have to do some minor or major tweaking to make the product work for me in my program, and it lets me know up front that (depending on the product), it might not be viable at ALL inside of Poser. (Such as Genesis-anything... I have an older version of the program, so I can't even make use of the DSON importer. That has led to some frustration with certain things in Daz's own store, such as wings and hair objects, that should be cross-platform yet for some reason are ONLY useable with the DSON..)

    Anyway. Before I get insanely annoying with my rambling. (Sorry. I do that a lot...)

    I've dealt with some folks who were highly offended that I don't have Studio MATS with my items. Very few of those folks bothered to ask why, or give any sort of benefit of doubt. Some of them were reasonable about it once I explained why I can't offer Studio MATs or Studio specific files for an item. But by and large, I do have to say, I haven't run into a lot of that over the years really. I think part of that might be due to the fact that up until very recently, the Studio-only folks have been working in an environment where they were the "other" program, and they had to figure out on their own how to make it work for them, whereas many Poser folks have been used to having things made available that do work in their program without an issue, and now that we are starting to see some content that is very much Studio-only, they are having a hard time adjusting to this... which can in turn lead to the sort of behavior you mentioned seeing.

    Honestly... I really wish there wasn't so much of the negativity or the Us vs. Them mentality between Poser and Studio. Both programs are excellent, both of them have their good and bad quirks, both programs produce excellent artwork, allow for extensive creativity and invention and creation. I think they are both on equal footing... the tools are different, but the end result is the same - artwork.

    Alright. I'll shush now - I apologize for carrying on so long and bouncing around all sorts of subjects. I just wanted to basically make it clear that some of us don't put that Poser-only label on things out of hostility or an intentional neglect of half of the market.

    I'm going to go back to fighting with my Teens now. =)

    Post edited by Seliah (Childe of Fyre) on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    No problem. I don't think most users really assume that a vendor supports only one program out of spite, it's just that we tend to hear from the ones who do.


    And you know what, expressing disappointment is fine - when it's polite, as you were.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited May 2013

    One of the challenges is that other stores do not offer the same type of return policy DAZ does. I was strongly chastized for having the audacity of asking for a return once (from a store not DAZ) for something that was marked 'some adjustments might need to be made for DS' but the item just functionally didn't work. It was 2 items out of a much larger order. It gives me a totally different buying perspective, and I think the stores with that policy do a disservice to the artists they serve since many DS users are going to restrict their buying I would think once they run in to similar problems.

    If one uses DS, they get used to the fact that much is set up for Poser (unlike the reverse) and accept they might have to tweak things. So, purchasing something and tweaking it to get what we want is within acceptable limits at times as long as we can return it within a reasonable amount of time if it really isn't fixable for us. I personally do not understand how a store can sell something without a return policy.

    Just for full disclosure, the second item was marked VUE, but I missed that. I did not see it, which happens to be a handicap of mine as I sometimes don't see things, similar to the way people reverse letters, but different.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • DoctorJellybeanDoctorJellybean Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Didn't someone start a mc6 to pz2 converter sometime ago? As I mainly use reality/Lux, Poser only products don't bother me that much. That said, there are some great mc6 mats which are fab, and would love to be able to use it in DS.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    Well said converter only stripped out what wasn't recognizable in DS, that is, you lost all of those 'fab' features of the mc6 materials. It was just for making the texture readable in DS, which DS can do by default now.

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