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OpenSubDiv Testing and Discussion Thread
Posted: 24 April 2013 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I don’t think DAZ would implement Ptex in Hex, I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.  OpenSubDiv is another matter entirely.  OpenSubDiv could significantly re-invigorate that software.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Why not?

I would have never believed DAZ would implement either in Studio.

I think that would be the next logical step.  To implement a way for it’s users to create the needed resources to coincide with it’s flagship product with it’s subsidiary products (especially, “bridged” products).

Hex already needs a fixing of it’s crippled paint module, and brought up to at least Carrara 7 standards.

Since Ptex is open-sourced code allowed to be implemented into commercial software, why wouldn’t DAZ try to work it into the next version of Hex (if there ever is a next version)?

Hell, if one man, Andrew Shpagin, can implement it into his software, why couldn’t a whole team working at DAZ?

I know, I know…  Andrew is a “super-coder”, and has a little help, but for the most part he does the coding himself.

Even if DAZ has no inclination to do so, it is now going on my wish list of things I would like to see in Hex3 (including RAMWolff’s want of a Shrinkwrap Modifier).

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Posted: 24 April 2013 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I don’t think DAZ have changed the rendertime subdivision in this beta.
The renderer is still fixed at 3 subdivisions and ignores the 1 subdivision setting you had for the preview.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 10:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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It’s good to know 3D Coat supports Ptex. Thank you Daremok.

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Just because I may have a strong opinion doesn’t make it any more (or less) correct than any other, just that I feel passionately a particular way at that moment.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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here’s another reason to hope Ptex solves certain problems, this is a persistent one.  I was testing out a simple model I made of a Mini Mag Light, and the UVS on the edges gets this distortion.  Was trying out Displacement mapping…  The barrel is 8 polys around, subdivided to level 1 with OSD catmark subdiv.  The exact same results from Catmull-Clark.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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I wish I had the link to the presentation I saw on these. They made the two seem like the dynamic duo that would revolutionize 3d graphics, and basically said as much. I’ve been around long enough to know how long it can take to implement something this ambitious, if ever though, so I wasn’t holding my breath (similar to ubiquitous, robust, standardized 3d in web browsers.) They point to the future at some point either way and that is exciting smile

The fact that DAZ is incorporating it into DS is promising. If they can capitalize on it to provide a good central format while also handling managing native formats, while cleaning up their catalog program, they could have a very nice app with a foot firmly in the future. Add-ons that handled things like project management would go a long ways towards getting them more scalability, but only if the fundamentals were more rock solid.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Gedd, is this the one you’re talking about? http://vimeo.com/55032699

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Interesting, yes this is it but I believe the version I saw was an earlier version of the same presentation. Thanks, I’m going to go through it again either way (and save the link this time.)  smile

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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One of my worries is that despite having DAZ implementing technologies like OpenSubDiv and Ptex, most content creators won’t use it because Poser is still the 500lbs gorilla that they all target and if it works in Studio well bonus, but if it doesn’t, they don’t care.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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It’s highly likely Poser devs are working furiously to implement both, if they have not already…  They already have at the very least an Alpha program, if not a Beta for the next version of Poser.  I have that on good authority.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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See, for me.. if they handle it well I believe they could totally outgrow the Poser style market and thus leave Poser far behind. Poser in the way they approach things are firmly rooted in the hobbiest market I believe, whereas DAZ is set to move forward into a larger market that can span both casual users and small to mid sized production houses as this market is destined to evolve. Just my take, only time will tell.

One of Poser’s limitations is it’s interface, they can’t overcome that really. Not that it’s not a good interface for what it is, just that I don’t see it fitting into the larger market. I’m also not suggesting that DAZ’s current interface is so much better then Posers. It is more a matter of preference as it stands now. Where DAZ has the advantage is that it is coming from a much more flexible base for implementing both interfaces that are more in line with industry standard interfaces, and providing more customizable options for people to set up the interface to their own needs.

My very subjective opinion is that they can’t put off sorting out the file/folder substructure as it won’t stand up in a more demanding environment in it’s current state. A good example of this is if someone were to try to develop an add-on for project management. Something that will be in demand in even small production houses with multiple people. With the current structure it would be all but impossible to develop in a way that would be cost effective or robust.

If managed well, with Genesis, I believe DAZ even has the potential to serve as a cost effective solution for quick, inexpensive stock to large houses at some point, and that market could be huge provided they come up with a licensing structure that would take into account Hollywood level uses of the product in a way that would be beneficial to all concerned, without killing off their current market.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Hi Ken…

DaremoK3 - 24 April 2013 09:34 AM

Great discussion.  Very enlightening…

Just for the sake of clarity for those reading this thread I would like to make a correction (sorry, nicci).

The Blender Ptex development was by Nicholas Bishop, and put on the back burner in favor of his baby, Sculpt in Blender.  He was working to implement dynamic sculpting to his sculpt module.  He is the original author of the sculpt module which was originally a stand-alone open-source program named SharpConstruct.

I’ve never seen any evidence of him helping on coding of Cycles, nor believe he would have the time (with all his ongoing projects).

ooops…. red face  you’re right, I got my names crossed…. I have been reading many articles lately on Cycles, sculpting, painting, subd…. and one about the 2.66 development had both Nicholas Bishop and Sergey Sharybin mentioned in it regarding what they were working on and I had just read an old blog on the Ptex work…. so I got Sergeys’ work on Cycles mixed up with Nicholas work on Dynotopo and Ptex… 

sorry for my confusion and thanks for correcting it… smile

As to DAZ adding OSD and Ptex to a future version Hex, why not?  If the code is easily addaptable to Hex I would think it would be a no-brainer to incorporate those features…. thus giving users a more complete pipeline with DAZ software…

I would think though that memory management and platform stability would be essential for both DS and Hex to take full advantage of using Ptex with OSD….. since OSD has a very heavy base in GPU rendering to provide real-time display of Ptex displacement in the viewport…

I did some quick tests of Blender SubD meshes to DS and OSD late last night… sorry no pics… and I have some early results…

While Blender SubD works pretty well with the legacy CC subd in DS, there are some slight differences with OSD catmark, but they seem to only be present in the OGL viewport display… the 3Delight renders were perfect… now the differences could have been related to the model itself, but I will need to look into that further…

Also, were in Blender you can get pretty wild with the SubD cage on a very low poly mesh, that same low poly mesh using OSD catmark can become very messy…. an example would be, the cage in Blender can have over-lapping or crossed edges and verts while keeping a clean sub-division, but that same base mesh in OSD becomes a mess because of the over-lapping edges and verts… now obviously you don’t normally what a mesh that is that messy to begin with, but sometimes it happens when modeling in SubD and you don’t notice…

One test I did was a very low poly jacket for Genesis, only 1140 faces… with standard CC SubD of 2 it smoothed but did not quite match the shape of the Hi-poly version of the jacket… with OSD catmark SubD of 2… it matched the Hi-poly version exactly…. 

I’ll definitely need to see what else I can do with this…

nicci…. smile

 

 

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Posted: 24 April 2013 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Gedd - 24 April 2013 12:37 PM

If managed well, with Genesis, I believe DAZ even has the potential to serve as a cost effective solution for quick, inexpensive stock to large houses at some point, and that market could be huge provided they come up with a licensing structure that would take into account Hollywood level uses of the product in a way that would be beneficial to all concerned, without killing off their current market.

The development of Species very much lends weight to your argument.

http://exocortex.com/products/species

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Posted: 25 April 2013 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Hi nicci,

Sorry, I know you know your stuff, and are quintessential for helping people out in the forums.  Did not mean to step on your toes.  Just wanted to make sure people were getting the correct info out there.  We’ll chock it up to you being seriously overworked.  Time for a mini-vacation with a hot bubble-bath, and a smooth libation?

Like you, I did some mesh smoothing comparisons with a model I created in Wings3D.  My results were congruent with your own.  Surprising, the OSD Catmark algorithm yielded an exact match to the one level Sub-D CC in W3D, but the (legacy) CC in DS proved inaccurate.  Go figure…


Gedd:

You’re welcome, and very insightful post.  I believe DAZ can transform this, and their business model to a more professional level, but they still have a long road ahead of them.  Not to mention, the need to stop fumbling, so they can be taken seriously on that level.

wancow:

Not sure if this is a solution.  I have never mapped, and textured for Sub-D meshes.  All my work is done on polygon finals.  But, as far as displacement for OSD meshes, and Ptex being a possible solution, have a look at the link below.  It appears Ptex is using (or can use) 32 bit color vector displacement opposed to grey-scale traditional displacement:

http://renderman.pixar.com/view/vector-displacements

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Posted: 25 April 2013 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Hi Ken…

Don’t worry… you didn’t hurt my toes… LOL  I always tell everyone to please let me know when I make a boo-boo….

But your pretty spot on about the over-worked part…. long days at the job mean my only free time to work on 3D is the really late night early morning hours…. I really do need a vacation, it’s been over ten years since my last long vacation…. a day here and there just doesn’t cut it….

hmm…. bubble bath sounds really good right now… but I’m at work… mad downer

What has me curious about using Ptex in DS is if it is only going to be a rendertime feature, or will we get to have the benefits of the viewport GPU acceleration for realtime viewing of displacement….

nicci… smile

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