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Is Gen 4 on its way out?
Posted: 30 March 2013 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Misty Whisky - 29 March 2013 08:31 AM

who hasn’t put years of effort into making V4 into our dream woman - or Aiko3 smile

many more years luvving my magnetless V4. baked in character morphs to make her memory lean. V4 with M4’s uvs. wmV4. V4 to V3. if you add defined hair groups for poser, another V4 obj.

...I remember reading similar threads when I first began this concerning the Mil3 vs Gen4 figures (which at the time was represented only by Vicky).

Spent most of the five years I’ve been in this developing my Leela and Tracey characters for my story using Vicky/Steph 4 and various morph sets by Thorne/Sarsa and Jamminwolf (Rendo) as there were no basic Gen4 teen models. Pushed things pretty much to the extreme, at one point successfully creating an eight year old version of my little piano playing resistance fighter just using V4 and Thorne’s Tommi.  Yes it is a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, but having to go through this time and time again for multiple scenes tends to make the process more difficult than it needs to be. Added to that were clothing fits, which were a real pain in the bum even using the Morph Follower in 3Advanced or third party tools like XD and WW.

What attracts me to Genesis is that I can blend other almost any other shape (including toon characters which never could be accomplished before) and morph set with it. Through GenX with the “legacy” body shapes, I have access to most of my Aiko3/Gen4 clothing content and character morph library.

On the side of Genesis (for me at least) Thorne/Sarsa’s Young Teens were just what the doctor ordered for my Leela and Tracey. They actually look like teenagers, not just slender, slightly smaller versions of the adult figures as the Mil3 Teens did. I didn’t see it “invalidating” all the work I did with the Gen4 versions, rather, it gave me valuable experience and insight into what I needed to do to make these new figure meshes come alive as my own characters. I’m still tweaking small details but the girls now look so much more like the visions I had of them in the sketches I did so long ago.

So even though I now work with Genesis, the Gen4 figures and content still have a lot of miles to go.

My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).

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Posted: 30 March 2013 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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TheWheelMan - 29 March 2013 10:08 AM
Ashfire45 - 29 March 2013 07:40 AM

I’m glad to hear it, to be honest; it’ll be a sad day when they stop making products for Gen 4. I don’t really see any reason to switch to Genesis, to be honest; new clothes, sure, autofit, sure…But to me, that seems like the only appeasing advantage on offer!

I’m glad that renderosity and runtime DNA still support Gen 4, but why doesn’t Daz3D?

Genesis won’t appeal to everyone based upon the kind of art they do. But the ability to blend every morph you have for Genesis to make new characters is hardly trivial, particularly if you’re into creating unique human characters or sci fi-fantasy characters.

...my goal in this respect is to create my Sabrinno race for illustration of the SF story I came up with decades ago.  With Genesis, the creature morphs GenX, and the Garibaldi Hair system I feel I now have the basic tools needed.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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SickleYield - 30 March 2013 12:31 PM

There will always be people who don’t want to use DAZ Studio because it’s DAZ Studio, and with respect to those who did so much work to create it, Genesis in DSON is impractical to use in a workflow compared to the Gen 4’s because it’s so laggy (even in Poser Pro 2012 on a good machine!).


I’ve been kind of expecting the weight-mapped gen 4’s to take off more than they seemingly have, especially when there’s a free tool to convert Gen4 clothes to WMGen4 clothes.  Maybe it’s because WMM4 isn’t out yet.  The solution isn’t going to be Alyson and Ryan.  Not when they’re hard to make decent characters with for most customers, have so few clothes and character sets, and completely new ones have to be made for them when conversions are possible for both Genesis and WMGen4.  I think they will continue to maintain a niche of fervent fans, like Miki, and never take over the main market.


I think not enough people must actually have P9/PP2012 to drive conversion to weight-mapped figures in general, especially with all the bend-fixes for V4 and M4 that have been sold at Rendo lately.  Because make no mistake, objective quality of a figure and its features are not going to do it, or everyone would have switched to Genesis.  Platform, clothing support, and ease of use are just as important to a big chunk of the user base.


I’m actually very curious to see where the market goes.

interesting thoughts, and i agree DSON in poser is tedious and time consuming compared to the results i can get with genesis in DS. For me, clothing support, ease of use and time saving workflow are key to me. Personally i could care less what app other users use for rendering or animation, but when i read that poser users want what I already have with using DS and they refuse to give it a try, i feel i have to say something in the hope they might realize there is an option they are missing..

I was one of those Poser only users (ver 5-2012) that wouldn’t use DS, mainly because of the UI which made no sense to me coming from poser, yet I stepped up to learn it due to wanting to use reality and Luxrender. I believe that if more poser users took the time to actually give the UI a chance they would use it more and probably prefer it due to some of the features that are not in poser which make life much easier.

I have all the WM figures that the poser only users rave about and prefer, and i have V4 with all the 3rd party fixes but so far nothing works better than genesis IN DS4.5 for my workflow. Anything else feels like moving backwards

Reality 3 for Poser comes out very soon and while I am excited to see and use the new features in Reality, the thought of working in Poser2012 again and missing some of the features in DS4.5 leaves me lukewarm at best.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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...for me Poser Pro 2012’s one big advantage is and will continue to be user created dynamics which is why it is still in my workflow.  Yes DSON is a pain, but still worth the time as I will be using it for assisting in the design of my own Dynamic clothing for Genesis which I can drape, pose, then export into other apps (like Carrara or Bryce) for creating finished scenes.


119$ I paid for Pro 2012 vs 15,000$ for Optitex’s Runway Designer? Yah, I think Pro 2012 wins.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 30 March 2013 03:51 PM

My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).

http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis

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Posted: 30 March 2013 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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I find I still use Gen 4 a great deal. That’s mainly because I have plenty of bits and pieces for those figures and have converted many Gen 2 and Gen3 bits upwards. Character sets for Gen 4 are still appearing - I recently bought Stolz which has an M4 version. Older skins work with Gen5 using Gen 4 mapping so are still useful.

One of my current projects is making small libraries of lower res figures with Decimator to drop into the background of Vue scenes and I’m using Gen4 for those because of the huge variety of bits and pieces I’ve collected.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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fixmypcmike - 30 March 2013 05:14 PM
Kyoto Kid - 30 March 2013 03:51 PM

My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).

http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis

Yup, love the shape and the clothing conversion template is really good too.  Hiro3 and David3’s templates even convert shoes over near flawlessly to Genesis.  I have quite a few conversions… mostly Adzan’s clothing sets he did for both figures.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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SickleYield - 30 March 2013 12:31 PM

There will always be people who don’t want to use DAZ Studio because it’s DAZ Studio, and with respect to those who did so much work to create it, Genesis in DSON is impractical to use in a workflow compared to the Gen 4’s because it’s so laggy (even in Poser Pro 2012 on a good machine!).


I’ve been kind of expecting the weight-mapped gen 4’s to take off more than they seemingly have, especially when there’s a free tool to convert Gen4 clothes to WMGen4 clothes.  Maybe it’s because WMM4 isn’t out yet.  The solution isn’t going to be Alyson and Ryan.  Not when they’re hard to make decent characters with for most customers, have so few clothes and character sets, and completely new ones have to be made for them when conversions are possible for both Genesis and WMGen4.  I think they will continue to maintain a niche of fervent fans, like Miki, and never take over the main market.


I think not enough people must actually have P9/PP2012 to drive conversion to weight-mapped figures in general, especially with all the bend-fixes for V4 and M4 that have been sold at Rendo lately.  Because make no mistake, objective quality of a figure and its features are not going to do it, or everyone would have switched to Genesis.  Platform, clothing support, and ease of use are just as important to a big chunk of the user base.


I’m actually very curious to see where the market goes.

We already know where the market is going - Vendors know that if they build for Gen4 and Poser 4 comparability, they can reach all three groups - Poser9/2012 - DS4 - legacy users (DS3 & Poser 8/2010 and earlier).  The folks that won’t/can’t upgrade can use their products and those of us who have left the 20th century behind can easily adjust those products for use in either DS4 and/or P9/2012.

There will never be another figure that dominates the market like V4.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Richard Haseltine - 30 March 2013 03:05 PM
HeraldOfFire - 30 March 2013 02:54 PM

On a technical level it wouldn’t be difficult for you to create a set of UV’s for the Gen3 characters so that you could use older textures.

Actually it would - the problem is that two maps on the G3 layout need to end up on one map on the G4/Genesis layout and there’s no way to do that.

What about using Texture converter to convert the Gen3 maps to Gen4. I thought that was one way to get a workaround?

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Posted: 30 March 2013 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Kyoto Kid - 30 March 2013 03:51 PM

My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).

Hi Kyoto Kid,

Just thought you might like to know that there is a D3 shape. I just checked on Genesis and he can be found in parameters under male and there was a clone to go with him. I have happily transfered things like the Bard tunic using it.

Doh Ninjaed by Mike…

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Posted: 30 March 2013 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Pendraia - 30 March 2013 07:51 PM
Richard Haseltine - 30 March 2013 03:05 PM
HeraldOfFire - 30 March 2013 02:54 PM

On a technical level it wouldn’t be difficult for you to create a set of UV’s for the Gen3 characters so that you could use older textures.

Actually it would - the problem is that two maps on the G3 layout need to end up on one map on the G4/Genesis layout and there’s no way to do that.

What about using Texture converter to convert the Gen3 maps to Gen4. I thought that was one way to get a workaround?

Yes, you can do it with Texture Converter, which creates a new set of maps.  You can’t do it by changing UVsets and using the same maps, the way you can switch the other Genesis UVsets.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 08:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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mambanegra - 30 March 2013 11:02 AM

So, it’s probably more a matter of how many venders are contributing to genesis than anything else.

this.

HeraldOfFire - 30 March 2013 03:05 AM
Barubary - 29 March 2013 10:51 PM
HeraldOfFire - 29 March 2013 08:34 AM

The major advantage is that Genesis is a universal character with a one-size-fits-all wardrobe. As much as I love the Gen4 characters, there’s a huge benefit in being able to use any outfit for any character rather than having to use magnets or special clothing fits if your morph of choice makes Vicky shorter by three centimeters.

That’s technically true, but if an outfit doesn’t come with a special shape for the Genesis shape you are using, while it will fit, it tends to look not that much better than whatever methods people were forced to use before.

I have to disagree heavily here. There are tons of items in my runtime which were never specifically designed for some of the shapes I have. Because of the weight mapping, the majority will fit perfectly even under more extreme morphs. Trying to do the same in the Gen4 series was incredibly difficult and borderline frustrating. Those Genesis ones which are a bit misfit can either be smoothed or otherwise quickly remedied. The same task with Gen4 was a far more laborious and time consuming process with exception to a few paid-for tools such as CrossDresser.

While I won’t disagree that the Gen4 were (and still are) outstanding figures, Genesis still has a massive upper hand in terms of flexibility.

I didn’t know you could actually transfer items without paid-for-tools like Cross-Dresser, so I was kinda presupposing those were used.

And it’s not like you can’t use smoothing on Genesis clothes only, it helps with fitting any kind of clothing to any kind of figure, as far as I can tell.

Still, we don’t seem to disagree too much, as I said, Gen4 is usually a bit more tiresome to work with. Genesis is usually easier, yes. But no, I doesn’t end the problem of fitting clothes once and for all.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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I don’t think gen 4 is on it’s way out. There are still plenty of buyers for gen 4 content.

That said, I prefer gen 5 content and have been trying to wean myself from buying gen 4 stuff. I am primarily a daz user and am somewhat tired of adjusting my gen 4 poes- for example.

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Posted: 31 March 2013 02:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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fixmypcmike - 30 March 2013 05:14 PM
Kyoto Kid - 30 March 2013 03:51 PM

My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).

http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis

...thank you very much.  Looked for him earlier but didn’t see him.

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Posted: 31 March 2013 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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I find Genesis is more than a bit tiresome to work with in Poser.  I spent far too much money in October on Genesis only to discover the results using Genesis / DSON Importer for Poser / Transfer Active Morphs are hit and miss.  Unfortunately, it’s more often a miss.  But that may be due to me being so picky about my work. 

Barubary - 30 March 2013 08:47 PM

Still, we don’t seem to disagree too much, as I said, Gen4 is usually a bit more tiresome to work with. Genesis is usually easier, yes. But no, I doesn’t end the problem of fitting clothes once and for all.


I also find DS to be more tiresome to work with than Poser.  Even though I started with DS years ago, and I gave DS4 / 4.5 more than a fair try because of Genesis.  I’ve spent more time trying to learn to use DS effectively than I needed with Poser.  Just as I don’t see the point in gagging down a lot of coffee just to learn to “like” coffee, I don’t see the point in spending more of my time attempting to learn to “like” DS raspberry

DS does have some features that make life easier, but ... it also has ‘features’ that make life harder.  It comes down to whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and which outweighs which differs person to person.

I’m glad some people are able to switch successfully to DS as Genesis really is only fully functional in DS.  Despite all the work both Smith Micro and DAZ have done to make Genesis functional in Poser.  But switching to DS is not the solution for everyone.  Just as switching to Genesis is not the solution for everyone.

FSMCDesigns - 30 March 2013 04:03 PM

I was one of those Poser only users (ver 5-2012) that wouldn’t use DS, mainly because of the UI which made no sense to me coming from poser, yet I stepped up to learn it due to wanting to use reality and Luxrender. I believe that if more poser users took the time to actually give the UI a chance they would use it more and probably prefer it due to some of the features that are not in poser which make life much easier.

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