Strange deformation of Genesis footwear on Genesis characters?

masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
edited December 1969 in New Users

Hello.

Periodically, I have noticed that when I apply Genesis footwear (the merchant does not necessarily seem to matter) such as Grace Pumps, Open Toe Pumps, or OTK Boots to a Genesis character, even though I use the corresponding foot pose (that ships with the footwear), the footwear sometimes "scrunches" or deforms around the foot. Even the heels on high heels will distort; it's as though you're looking at them underwater, and there is usually poke-through associated with the issue. The odd thing is that this is intermittent, but I'm not sure if it's something I'm doing, or not doing. At other times, all works beautifully.

I'd be happy for any potential solutions to this, as it ca be extremely frustrating.

Thanks.

Comments

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    masi3vee said:
    Hello.

    Periodically, I have noticed that when I apply Genesis footwear (the merchant does not necessarily seem to matter) such as Grace Pumps, Open Toe Pumps, or OTK Boots to a Genesis character, even though I use the corresponding foot pose (that ships with the footwear), the footwear sometimes "scrunches" or deforms around the foot. Even the heels on high heels will distort; it's as though you're looking at them underwater, and there is usually poke-through associated with the issue. The odd thing is that this is intermittent, but I'm not sure if it's something I'm doing, or not doing. At other times, all works beautifully.

    I'd be happy for any potential solutions to this, as it ca be extremely frustrating.

    Thanks.

    Is it just on shoes? And when you say sometimes, do you mean on some items all the time, or many items at different times?


    I've noted peculiar conformation errors on basically every type of item in DS4.5 intermittently (usually after the program has been running several hours). Restarting the program usually fixed it.

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    It seems to be always on Genesis/V5 footwear, when it occurs. I just discovered that it seems to have something to do with a character preset. I loaded the shoes onto her when her preset was applied, and there was the conformation error. But when I undid the preset, to the default Genesis shape, the shoes were perfect. Restoring/zeroing the foot shape/pose does not seem to alleviate the issue when the desired preset is applied. It's VERY strange. Thank you for replying... I'm stumped, though. I have this lovely female character that has to go barefoot. :(

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited March 2013

    masi3vee said:
    It seems to be always on Genesis/V5 footwear, when it occurs. I just discovered that it seems to have something to do with a character preset. I loaded the shoes onto her when her preset was applied, and there was the conformation error. But when I undid the preset, to the default Genesis shape, the shoes were perfect. Restoring/zeroing the foot shape/pose does not seem to alleviate the issue when the desired preset is applied. It's VERY strange. Thank you for replying... I'm stumped, though. I have this lovely female character that has to go barefoot. :(

    Aha. Is it a V5 character, or a custom that the shoes do not support? Fancy heels with limited FBMs are a leading cause of Autoconform throwing hissy fits.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Nope... Genesis. And I have used these same shoes successfully on Genesis many times. There has to be a way to zero the feet to default. "Zero" selection from the Edit menu does not seem to do it. Might have to rebuild this character from scratch.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    masi3vee said:
    Nope... Genesis. And I have used these same shoes successfully on Genesis many times. There has to be a way to zero the feet to default. "Zero" selection from the Edit menu does not seem to do it. Might have to rebuild this character from scratch.

    V5 is a Genesis morph. Most shoes support it. There are a number of other Genesis morphs that are often not supported and absolutely will cause distortion. S5, Nata, and A5 depending on the item's age are among the possible culprits. This is why I asked.

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Understood. Is there a way to reliably zero the feet, though?

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    masi3vee said:
    Understood. Is there a way to reliably zero the feet, though?

    Load a base Genesis. It should be zeroed. Then save a pose to library without moving anything and only check the foot and toe bones. Now you have a reusable zero.

  • vwranglervwrangler Posts: 1,539
    edited December 1969

    masi3vee said:
    Understood. Is there a way to reliably zero the feet, though?

    Load a base Genesis. It should be zeroed. Then save a pose to library without moving anything and only check the foot and toe bones. Now you have a reusable zero.

    Just out of curiosity: Wouldn't you want to expand out those bones and make sure that translations and scale are NOT checked? Translations, at least, anyway. Otherwise, you have feet that are trying to go back to 0-0-0 on the XYZ axes, while the rest of Genesis stays where it is, right?

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 1,622
    edited December 1969

    I've been working on a product for Genesis, and while testing it I found that the shoes I made behave exactly this way with certain dialed in morphs, such as Michael 5. The reason, as it turns out, is because some of the dialed morphs change the figure scale. Shoes, in particular, don't like this very much. If you don't have any reason to keep V5 at her height, which is somewhere around 95% of Genesis height, you could try restoring her scaling to 100% in the parameters tab. This, I found, usually fixes any crumpling of clothes, shoes, hats, etc.

    or...

    There is also the option of "show hidden properties" in the parameters tab (click on the submenu button, upper left of panel. Looks like 3 little lines). If you choose the shoe/s in the scene tab, go to parameters, there should now be a FBM dial for Victoria 5 (or whomever) that is set to 100%. Dial this back until the shoes straighten out. I found that sometimes dialing this back to 0% makes the shoes way too big, but small increments will make them look better.

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Guys, thank you for this valuable discussion... lots to consider. Let me investigate some of the suggestions, and report back. It occurs to me that both characters that share this issue are Stalker Girl morph-based. Off to have a look...

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Slosh, I have tried your suggestion, though I still may have to see if I can save a foot zero. In my parameters display, I select the shoes and see only JCMs (not FBMs) under the Hidden tab. They do affect the shoe fit some, but not optimally. It seems to me that the best course here is to try to selectively return the character's feet to absolute base so the shoes don't fight with them. Gonna try SY's suggestion at this point, too.

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Update... no success in saving a default foot shape as yet. I noticed that, in the troublesome character's foot shape settings, all of the Extensor Brevis muscles are set at 0.30. I cannot change them to 0 manually, and don;t seem to be able to apply a 0 preset to them. This is very strange indeed. I just can't get this Stalker Girl morph to use any footwear acceptably.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 2,121
    edited March 2013

    if you can show the pic how you trying to adjust,,and product names,and morph (characer name) (v5/)
    clearly, may other user can help you.(or try same thing and find answer)

    usually, if you use vicotria 5 morph, the shoes auto follow the shape .
    and it must fit to the genesis rig.
    that means,, eg V5 shape morph has link to scale. so that it change genesis rig scale.
    on the other hand,,, auto generated morph do not have link to change scale.

    but when genesis change rig scale, the shoes rig fit to genesis rig,
    so it change scale too.

    so there is no problem about scaling if there is no original morph.

    on the other hand, if vendor make original morph for V5 shape with link scaling,
    it may cause problem, but I believe vendor not include scale when make original morph.
    they make morph for shoes with zero scale genesis as sloash said.
    then may overwrite, as same name. so that it auto adpted to the shoes
    when you change genesis shape by V5morph.(FBMvicotria5)

    if the product has no original morph for V5shape,
    it means the shoes must auto-followd FBMvictoria5,
    so you can find the morph in parameter tab,, I think.:roll:

    ====================================

    and,, if the bad effect caused by JCMs and it was rocked,,
    (but I hink,, auto-generated morph (jcm or FBM or MCM of genesis ) has no ERC,
    so usually you can easy change these hide parameter to zero and remove the effect.,,

    you can see rock icon on parameter,
    then click the key (rock) icon, you can unrock and change parameter .

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    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    kita, thanks for the reply, and the screenshot. Before I saw your reply, I removed the Stalker Girl morph from the one character in question, and the issue went away. So the SG morph is definitely the source of the problem. It seems to hate shoes.

    So, on another character with that morph, wearing platform shoes, I looked at the scale for both the character and the shoes... both 100%. I selected the shoes, and in the Parameters, was able to fiddle with the JCM for the toes, and the issue was minimized, but not entirely solved. There is still a little bit of distortion under/in front of the big toe, and the shoe is a little too big. Fooling with the scale causes other issues, so I might just have to accept this as an interim fix.

    It seems to me that I need to find a way to load the SG morph without affecting the feet. I still have not been able to save a default foot preset successfully. It's a pity, because SG is a beautiful, versatile package. But it eats shoes.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    vwrangler said:
    masi3vee said:
    Understood. Is there a way to reliably zero the feet, though?

    Load a base Genesis. It should be zeroed. Then save a pose to library without moving anything and only check the foot and toe bones. Now you have a reusable zero.

    Just out of curiosity: Wouldn't you want to expand out those bones and make sure that translations and scale are NOT checked? Translations, at least, anyway. Otherwise, you have feet that are trying to go back to 0-0-0 on the XYZ axes, while the rest of Genesis stays where it is, right?

    No, it actually will zero translations relative to the rest of the figure in my testing.

  • vwranglervwrangler Posts: 1,539
    edited March 2013

    masi3vee said:
    kita, thanks for the reply, and the screenshot. Before I saw your reply, I removed the Stalker Girl morph from the one character in question, and the issue went away. So the SG morph is definitely the source of the problem. It seems to hate shoes.

    So, on another character with that morph, wearing platform shoes, I looked at the scale for both the character and the shoes... both 100%. I selected the shoes, and in the Parameters, was able to fiddle with the JCM for the toes, and the issue was minimized, but not entirely solved. There is still a little bit of distortion under/in front of the big toe, and the shoe is a little too big. Fooling with the scale causes other issues, so I might just have to accept this as an interim fix.

    It seems to me that I need to find a way to load the SG morph without affecting the feet. I still have not been able to save a default foot preset successfully. It's a pity, because SG is a beautiful, versatile package. But it eats shoes.

    I've got that character, so I was able to tinker a bit, just to see if I could replicate the issue.

    When I first put the OKL Boots 2 on her, the toe and sole were terribly deformed, but then when I applied the foot pose that comes with the boots, the issue went away completely. This is, however, the only set of shoes I tested that I can say that about.

    PB Mary Janes and PB Ballerina Flats and, not surprisingly, the Stalker Girl Boots were fine. Dark Moods boots (low heels, no foot pose) were fine. B9999 Chelsea Boots (low heels, no foot pose) were mostly fine -- there's a tiny wrinkle just behind the toes, but if you're not looking or doing a really closeup render of the foot, it's not something that can be seen.

    Then I put her in Pumps for V5, used its accompanying foot pose, and the issue didn't go away. (See image below)

    The shoes from Lynette's Dark Rites (red and black shoes below), which also have foot poses, were kind of interestingly terrible. The Bow Shoes from the new A5 outfit are ... less horrifyingly terrible after applying the foot pose, but still somewhat deformed over the entire foot area. The low heels with Bewitching for Genesis are deformed, but not a huge amount -- however, the deformation doesn't go away when the foot pose is applied.

    Doing "Show Hidden Properties" and dialing out the FBMStalkerGirl morph mostly -- but not entirely -- fixes the issue but also partially unscales the shoe. Dialing out the JCMs completely fixes the problem ... and also completely unscales the shoe, as mentioned by masi3vee

    I also tried SG as an additive morph for another V5 character. Lather, rinse, repeat, second verse (or sets of shoes) same as the first, if maybe a bit less intense.

    It looks like the issue may be primarily with shoes that require a pose to deform the foot to be used. I thought the age of the shoe and whether or not it was built to accommodate either SG herself or more extreme scaled characters like A5 might be a factor, but every single one of the shoes that didn't have issues was built long before either SG or A5, and Bow Dress Shoes were built *for* A5, so that's not it.

    It looks like, in general, low or flat shoes should be OK. Shoes with heels will be problematic. No idea why.

    stalkergirl-pumpsV5.jpg
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    Post edited by vwrangler on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    vwrangler said:
    masi3vee said:
    kita, thanks for the reply, and the screenshot. Before I saw your reply, I removed the Stalker Girl morph from the one character in question, and the issue went away. So the SG morph is definitely the source of the problem. It seems to hate shoes.

    So, on another character with that morph, wearing platform shoes, I looked at the scale for both the character and the shoes... both 100%. I selected the shoes, and in the Parameters, was able to fiddle with the JCM for the toes, and the issue was minimized, but not entirely solved. There is still a little bit of distortion under/in front of the big toe, and the shoe is a little too big. Fooling with the scale causes other issues, so I might just have to accept this as an interim fix.

    It seems to me that I need to find a way to load the SG morph without affecting the feet. I still have not been able to save a default foot preset successfully. It's a pity, because SG is a beautiful, versatile package. But it eats shoes.

    I've got that character, so I was able to tinker a bit, just to see if I could replicate the issue.

    When I first put the OKL Boots 2 on her, the toe and sole were terribly deformed, but then when I applied the foot pose that comes with the boots, the issue went away completely. This is, however, the only set of shoes I tested that I can say that about.

    PB Mary Janes and PB Ballerina Flats and, not surprisingly, the Stalker Girl Boots were fine. Dark Moods boots (low heels, no foot pose) were fine. B9999 Chelsea Boots (low heels, no foot pose) were mostly fine -- there's a tiny wrinkle just behind the toes, but if you're not looking or doing a really closeup render of the foot, it's not something that can be seen.

    Then I put her in Pumps for V5, used its accompanying foot pose, and the issue didn't go away. (See image below)

    The shoes from Lynette's Dark Rites (red and black shoes below), which also have foot poses, were kind of interestingly terrible. The Bow Shoes from the new A5 outfit are ... less horrifyingly terrible after applying the foot pose, but still somewhat deformed over the entire foot area. The low heels with Bewitching for Genesis are deformed, but not a huge amount -- however, the deformation doesn't go away when the foot pose is applied.

    Doing "Show Hidden Properties" and dialing out the FBMStalkerGirl morph mostly -- but not entirely -- fixes the issue but also partially unscales the shoe. Dialing out the JCMs completely fixes the problem ... and also completely unscales the shoe, as mentioned by masi3vee

    I also tried SG as an additive morph for another V5 character. Lather, rinse, repeat, second verse (or sets of shoes) same as the first, if maybe a bit less intense.

    It looks like the issue may be primarily with shoes that require a pose to deform the foot to be used. I thought the age of the shoe and whether or not it was built to accommodate either SG herself or more extreme scaled characters like A5 might be a factor, but every single one of the shoes that didn't have issues was built long before either SG or A5, and Bow Dress Shoes were built *for* A5, so that's not it.

    It looks like, in general, low or flat shoes should be OK. Shoes with heels will be problematic. No idea why.

    So adding Stalker Girl support to the SRMS might be worth it, is what you're saying? I've been thinking about doing a Toon Expansion Pack for G4, Nata and Mavka anyway.

  • vwranglervwrangler Posts: 1,539
    edited December 1969

    So adding Stalker Girl support to the SRMS might be worth it, is what you're saying? I've been thinking about doing a Toon Expansion Pack for G4, Nata and Mavka anyway.

    ...Probably? I haven't tried SRMS to rerig shoes built for Genesis, only some early Genesis dresses and skirts that didn't have much in the way of FBM or movement support, and some Gen4 and Gen3 items. Do Genesis shoes generally have custom FBMs that would get overwritten by SRMS? If not, then yes, definitely.

    I can't see it not being worthwhile, in any event. She's scaled so differently that it probably would make sense to have a way of putting her shape into clothing with something other than autoconvert.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    vwrangler said:
    So adding Stalker Girl support to the SRMS might be worth it, is what you're saying? I've been thinking about doing a Toon Expansion Pack for G4, Nata and Mavka anyway.

    ...Probably? I haven't tried SRMS to rerig shoes built for Genesis, only some early Genesis dresses and skirts that didn't have much in the way of FBM or movement support, and some Gen4 and Gen3 items. Do Genesis shoes generally have custom FBMs that would get overwritten by SRMS? If not, then yes, definitely.

    I can't see it not being worthwhile, in any event. She's scaled so differently that it probably would make sense to have a way of putting her shape into clothing with something other than autoconvert.


    Most female shoes come with V5. That's it. If I do an add-on I could offer a rigging boot that doesn't have the V5 morph and thus won't overwrite it (it's extremely easy to do that).

  • SloshSlosh Posts: 1,622
    edited December 1969

    The FBM I mentioned would be listed under "Actor", not under "Hidden" in the parameters tab. It's not a perfect fix, because as I said, the shoes actually get larger when you dial this back. But they do smooth out.

  • masi3veemasi3vee Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Guys, thank you all so much for all your trouble and testing. I think that I have managed to reduce the severity of the issue with tweaking to a satisfactory degree, but that's what it will take with the SG morph, I suppose. Hopefully, some good will come out of my question, as it seems to have brought a problem to light, and you all have offered at least a partial solution. Thank you all again... this thread is worth a bookmark, I think.

  • edited December 1969

    I have just come back to DAZ Studio after spending a few months learning Poser Pro 2012. I gave up on DAZ Studio because it was crashing on my brand new iMac 27" system after just a few minutes after launch. I just could not get anything done. A couple of days ago, I noticed the new "public beta" version of Studio and decided to give it a try. The good news is, so far, no crashes.

    However, the very first scene I tried to create included a Genesis character and the Pumps for V5. I posed my figure and immediately encountered this strange deforming problem with the shoes. I hope someone at DAZ is paying attention, and that they are working on a solution. This is just impossible to live with. Genesis is supposed to be the state-of-the-art figure making technology, but if I can't even put a pretty girl into high heels without problems like this, it is worthless to me. >:(

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,634
    edited December 1969

    JCMs (not FBMs)

    Explain what those are? Newbies are lost in this thread! (aka, ME)

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 1,823
    edited December 1969

    Joint Controlled Morph, it is used to make adjustments to the mesh when a joint position may cause unsightly deformation. Full Body Morph, a morph that changes the full body.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969

    jestmart said:
    Joint Controlled Morph, it is used to make adjustments to the mesh when a joint position may cause unsightly deformation. Full Body Morph, a morph that changes the full body.

    Genesis has a lot of hidden JCMs for correcting the elbows and knees, etc. on a given morph. I use optional JCM for thigh bending on skirts and long shirts so that the user can improve the smoothness in that area without having it mess things up at low to intermediate values.


    You create a JCM by creating the morph, loading it with Reverse Deformations on, and then using the ERC Freeze from Property Editor if you want it to be of the automatic/hidden variety.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,634
    edited December 1969

    Thanks, one more- SRMS?

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,004
    edited December 1969
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