since when is speculating or wishful thinking forbidden at daz place?

Fixme12Fixme12 Posts: 349
edited March 2013 in The Commons

since when is speculating or wishful thinking forbidden at daz place?

Post edited by Chohole on

Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,316
    edited December 1969

    When it is presented as fact, potentially confusing readers who don't have the poster's measure.

  • Fixme12Fixme12 Posts: 349
    edited December 1969

    think it's more my bad english writting that 's confusing.
    but we'll learn everyday :)

  • cridgitcridgit Posts: 823
    edited December 1969

    I used to work for a software company and yes they are paranoid about discussing "next releases" and "new features". When I read your other post I thought "yep, somebody's going to have a go at that".

    Don't take it personally, its just good business ;-)

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited December 1969

    fixme12 said:
    since when is speculating or wishful thinking forbidden at daz place?

    If DAZ even thinks it might be critical of their policies or procedures, you can be certain they'll scrub it, and likely send you a nasty-gram, as well.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,350
    edited December 1969

    Really ????????????????

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,775
    edited December 1969

    Sarsifus said:
    fixme12 said:
    since when is speculating or wishful thinking forbidden at daz place?

    If DAZ even thinks it might be critical of their policies or procedures, you can be certain they'll scrub it, and likely send you a nasty-gram, as well.

    Yep

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited December 1969

    Perhaps "certain" isn't the right word -- "likely" or "very likely" might be more accurate.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,350
    edited December 1969

    DAZ 3D is big enough to accept critcism, but when unsubstantiated speculation is presented as fact then it is misleading and therefore totally inaccurate.

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited March 2013

    chohole said:
    DAZ 3D is big enough to accept critcism, but when unsubstantiated speculation is presented as fact then it is misleading and therefore totally inaccurate.

    That's a laugh. DAZ is THE most thin-skinned and overly-sentsitive company I've ever dealt with -- ask around, and you'll find that I'm far from the only person who holds that opinion. I've had issues from time to time with the other 3D markets, like Renderosity and Runtime DNA and Content Paradise, and NONE of them come across as high-handed, uncommunicative, or inflexible as DAZ does. Something changed at DAZ this past year -- I dunno what, but it's not good, and if the things I've read and the things I've been told are to be believed, it's cost them a lot of PC members and a lot of lost revenue in subscriptions and sales.

    DAZ's admins regularly scrub posts that question or critique its actions and decisions -- hardly "big enough to accept criticism". God forbid a little honest dissent intrude into the sanitized facade they try to maintain.

    Post edited by Kevin-McKee on
  • KinnieMKinnieM Posts: 93
    edited December 1969

    Sarsifus said:
    chohole said:
    DAZ 3D is big enough to accept critcism, but when unsubstantiated speculation is presented as fact then it is misleading and therefore totally inaccurate.

    That's a laugh. DAZ is THE most thin-skinned and overly-sentsitive company I've ever dealt with -- ask around, and you'll find that I'm far from the only person who holds that opinion. I've had issues from time to time with the other 3D markets, like Renderosity and Runtime DNA and Content Paradise, and NONE of them come across as high-handed, uncommunicative, or inflexible as DAZ does. Something changed at DAZ this past year -- I dunno what, but it's not good, and if the things I've read and the things I've been told are to be believed, it's cost them a lot of PC members and a lot of lost revenue in subscriptions and sales.

    DAZ's admins regularly scrub posts that question or critique its actions and decisions -- hardly "big enough to accept criticism". God forbid a little honest dissent intrude into the sanitized facade they try to maintain.

    I totally agree with this.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,359
    edited December 1969

    Is this going anywhere besides the gutter? If you have complaints, then make them. Venomous posts like this just inflame people on both sides with nothing constructive coming out of it. The majority of removed criticism posts tended to be duplicates of existing threads. Contrary to popular belief, we don't really need twelve threads on the same topic as happened late last year.

  • KinnieMKinnieM Posts: 93
    edited March 2013

    HeraldOfFire, we do make complaints and we are jumped on for doing so (see your own post) and yes it will get us nowhere. I will simply say that it is not constructive of you or anyone else to jump to Daz's defense and claim that those who make a complaint should not. There are legitimate issues/problems that people are having here and these forums were supposed to be where we could come for help or to let our voices be heard. So if it takes 12 threads for it to be heard then it takes 12 threads.

    I am being turned off by everything I am seeing and that is not good for Daz as I am a paying customer. I still stay because I hope that things can turn around and become more like it once was.

    I have poser 2012 and Daz 4.5 and I can say that I am a Daz user and that is why I voice my concerns and yes complaints. I love the software and the wonderful products that are made for it. What I don't like is the lousy attitude that as customers a lot have been subjected to.

    This is JMO and I believe that I have the option to voice it.

    Post edited by KinnieM on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,350
    edited December 1969

    DAZ 3D staff rarely read the forums, so, whether there is one or 12 threads on the same subject, it is doubtful that they are actually seeing the criticism that is being leveled at them. You should remember that the forums are here for the forum members, not for DAZ 3D Staff. So the only people you are expressing your feeling to are other forum members.

    When criticism posted in the forums contains inaccuracies or assigns inaccurate and potentially damaging unsubstantiated speculaltive thoughts as fact, then it will indeed be removed.

    It has been said many times that if you have something that you feel the need to communicate to DAZ 3D, then you do need to contact DAZ 3D to do that, by using the support system.

  • brainmuffinbrainmuffin Posts: 183
    edited December 1969

    In my own experience, complaining only makes others defensive. Asking to find ways to make things better or how one may help usually lead to a more positive response.

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited December 1969

    Is this going anywhere besides the gutter? If you have complaints, then make them. Venomous posts like this just inflame people on both sides with nothing constructive coming out of it. The majority of removed criticism posts tended to be duplicates of existing threads. Contrary to popular belief, we don't really need twelve threads on the same topic as happened late last year.

    Thanks for proving my point -- this ISN'T venomous, it's truth. Fixme12 asked a very appropriate question, and I gave him a very honest and accurate answer.

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited March 2013

    chohole said:
    DAZ 3D staff rarely read the forums, so, whether there is one or 12 threads on the same subject, it is doubtful that they are actually seeing the criticism that is being leveled at them. You should remember that the forums are here for the forum members, not for DAZ 3D Staff. So the only people you are expressing your feeling to are other forum members.

    When criticism posted in the forums contains inaccuracies or assigns inaccurate and potentially damaging unsubstantiated speculaltive thoughts as fact, then it will indeed be removed.

    It has been said many times that if you have something that you feel the need to communicate to DAZ 3D, then you do need to contact DAZ 3D to do that, by using the support system.

    We do -- and we get ignored. Or we get told that the problem was solved to DAZ's satisfaction, but not nearly enough to the customer's. Like I said, Fixme12 asked a very direct question and I gave him a very direct answer, and you immediately took offense at it. THAT'S what I meant by "thin-skinned" -- you could have left it between him and I, but you chose to insert yourself into it and make an issue out of it, something I don't see the admins on the other sites doing, or at least not nearly to the extent DAZ does.

    As for DAZ not reading the forum posts -- believe me, WE KNOW. Or should I say, you are very selective about what you appear to read and what you don't. Criticisms and complaints get scrubbed and draw a warning; anything else is pretty much ignored.

    Like I said, Fixme12 asked a very honest and direct question, and I gave him a very direct and honest answer. Inserting yourself into the conversation and making an issue out of it only proves my point. Sending me more warnings only proves my point. I wasn't intending to do anything more than answer his question -- YOU'RE the one who has dragged this issue out to this extent by doing EXACTLY what I said DAZ would do.

    Post edited by Kevin-McKee on
  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,359
    edited December 1969

    Sarsifus said:
    Is this going anywhere besides the gutter? If you have complaints, then make them. Venomous posts like this just inflame people on both sides with nothing constructive coming out of it. The majority of removed criticism posts tended to be duplicates of existing threads. Contrary to popular belief, we don't really need twelve threads on the same topic as happened late last year.

    Thanks for proving my point -- this ISN'T venomous, it's truth. Fixme12 asked a very appropriate question, and I gave him a very honest and accurate answer.


    You gave him your version of the truth, as you see it. As already mentioned, many of the posts removed were duplicates of existing threads, some of which were merged into one. There have been plenty of long-running posts filled with criticisms which you've either conveniently forgotten about or simply chose not to mention because it doesn't support your argument. As mentioned, last year when a lot of changes were made the forums were filled with them, one of which went on for countless pages before eventually being closed (yes, closed not deleted) because it was turning into a grilling rather than a constructive argument.

    I have no problem with people complaining about anything, but there are good ways and bad ways to go about it. Simply whining won't get anywhere unless you give points on what exactly you're unhappy about. You say you're unhappy with Daz's attitude, but that's an extremely broad topic with no real way to prove that it's changed or any way to appease those who you claim were wronged.

    I'm not so much leaping to their defense as I am scratching my head trying to put my finger on exactly what it is you're complaining about and how you expect them to fix it.

  • Kevin-McKeeKevin-McKee Posts: 644
    edited March 2013

    Sarsifus said:
    Is this going anywhere besides the gutter? If you have complaints, then make them. Venomous posts like this just inflame people on both sides with nothing constructive coming out of it. The majority of removed criticism posts tended to be duplicates of existing threads. Contrary to popular belief, we don't really need twelve threads on the same topic as happened late last year.

    Thanks for proving my point -- this ISN'T venomous, it's truth. Fixme12 asked a very appropriate question, and I gave him a very honest and accurate answer.


    You gave him your version of the truth, as you see it. As already mentioned, many of the posts removed were duplicates of existing threads, some of which were merged into one. There have been plenty of long-running posts filled with criticisms which you've either conveniently forgotten about or simply chose not to mention because it doesn't support your argument. As mentioned, last year when a lot of changes were made the forums were filled with them, one of which went on for countless pages before eventually being closed (yes, closed not deleted) because it was turning into a grilling rather than a constructive argument.

    I have no problem with people complaining about anything, but there are good ways and bad ways to go about it. Simply whining won't get anywhere unless you give points on what exactly you're unhappy about. You say you're unhappy with Daz's attitude, but that's an extremely broad topic with no real way to prove that it's changed or any way to appease those who you claim were wronged.

    I'm not so much leaping to their defense as I am scratching my head trying to put my finger on exactly what it is you're complaining about and how you expect them to fix it.

    Like I said, dude, I had no intention of doing anything other than giving Fixme12 an answer to his question. I had no intention of dredging up ancient history and rehashing this whole issue again. Believe me, I'm as tired of the issue as you probably are, but neither am I afraid to speak the truth (even if, as you say, it's "my version of it"). I just think it's hilarious that in the last hour or so, DAZ has played out the exact role I just got done describing.

    Post edited by Kevin-McKee on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    I will say that maybe DAZ does not read the forums, but I do know that they are informed as to what is going on here because I have received PM's form DAZ personnel about things I spoke of only in the forum.

    I also believe some people are being harsh because they may feel they are being ignored by whatever it is they have to say. If there was a part of the forum where one could voice their concern and someone from DAZ would do what they can to rectify or simply explain the reason for this or that, then I feel that would show DAZ does want to hear and communicate with the customer base.I think it is simply no communication from DAZ that upsets the masses.

    But I will say that there have been issues that DAZ immediately communicated on. I am not going to try and point out whatever this or that was, I just know it to be fact. So the ability is there to communicate and it also proves that DAZ does catch wind of what is talked about in the forum. If DAZ would open themselves up a bit more to answer people's concerns, I feel it would lessen the harsh criticisms they receive from some of their members. But there are some people who no matter what is done are going to complain and will never be satisfied.

    Just my opinion.

  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 1969

    I have discovered from past personal experience that if any business provides me with bad service AND is not receptive to discussing that bad service and fixing the problem, then that business will not longer receive my patronage and I'll find another business to go to. No need for me to stand outside the business and yell at other patrons how terrible the business is. The other patrons will either figure it out for themselves and go somewhere else or they will receive better service than I did. Works for me. *shrug*

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 1,166
    edited December 1969

    I have discovered from past personal experience that if any business provides me with bad service AND is not receptive to discussing that bad service and fixing the problem, then that business will not longer receive my patronage and I'll find another business to go to. No need for me to stand outside the business and yell at other patrons how terrible the business is. The other patrons will either figure it out for themselves and go somewhere else or they will receive better service than I did. Works for me. *shrug*

    Same here, but working in retail management i have found that customers love to spread their bad experiences to anyone that will listen. Unfortunately, their bad experience is usually that, "THEIR" bad experience. They can't seem to fathom that anyone else is having a difference experience from their own, and we get feedback all the time that proves that and it's the same here in the forums unfortunately.

  • ssgbryanssgbryan Posts: 690
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Really ????????????????

    Yep, I have a number of them.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    I have found in my limited experience that people have complained and it was addressed in as timely a manner as can be expected from a company who tries to accomodate their customers to the best of their ability with the limited funds and manpower that they have.

    A number of times they have tried to innovate and gotten a little ahead of themselves but overall I am pleased with the products they have made and with the progress they have made.

    The forums are better now as is the shopping experience. I also appreciate the DAZ Installer now that it is operational and understand there are a few kinks that are being ironed out as soon as they can be accommodated.

    Dear DAZ,

    You're doing okay by me. Just FYI.

    Love, RKane_1

    (p.s.: a gift certificate is not required but certainly appreciated. :P)

  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 947
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    DAZ 3D staff rarely read the forums, so, whether there is one or 12 threads on the same subject, it is doubtful that they are actually seeing the criticism that is being leveled at them. You should remember that the forums are here for the forum members, not for DAZ 3D Staff. So the only people you are expressing your feeling to are other forum members.

    Now, my memory might be a bit blurry, wouldn't it be more precise to say "DAZ 3D staff rarely read the forums any more."? Because I seem to recall a time about one or two years ago, when there were large threads going on to accompany sales and there were people like DAZ_Kevin and DAZ_Skondris (I am not quite sure I remember those names correctly :D) who did kinda, sorta kept track of things, occasionally even reacted to customer input when i.e. a sale was buggy. And I do seem to recall some heated debates involving Randall Lloyd who was seeking ideas for new DAZ products.


    That's why I believe that while, indeed, large parts of this board are more or less pointless today, people still trying to use these boards is more due to habit than perceived effectiveness. Give it a few more months and I would assume that people start to accept that one cannot communicate with DAZ using these boards (or - that's just my opinion, of course - any means at all) any more and will stop.

  • ColdrakeColdrake Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    fixme12 said:
    since when is speculating or wishful thinking forbidden at daz place?

    When it is presented as fact, potentially confusing readers who don't have the poster's measure.

    For me, Richard's answer to fixme12's question covers everything that needed to be said.


    Coldrake

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    Deleted - don't care about this post.

    Post edited by creativemodelsbe on
  • Poacher2Poacher2 Posts: 13
    edited March 2013

    Take it from me, who is one who "lurks" but rarely posts, what is tending to chase people away from the forums, or at least stop them from posting when they do visit, is that some forum members feel that it is necessary to post the same sentiments in many different threads in the forums, sentiments which are held by a small minority who feel that they speak for the silent majority.

    You have made your feelings clear, time after time, so now let those who do not feel the same way as you enjoy their forum visits instead of having to see the same negative posts repeated ad nauseum.

    Post edited by Poacher2 on
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