Lighting: Doing Something Wrong- Spot Renders Really Different From Viewport

NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
edited March 2013 in New Users

When I use the spot render tool (well, duh, don't know how I managed to skip ALL the references to that, been totally wasting my time creating things that are gorgeous in the viewport and horrid when spot rendered) I am not getting lighting results at all satisfactory. For example, the top of a temple, the arches- I have a bright pink spotlight (so I can see where the light is hitting) and when spot rendered (SR for short) half the arch lighting disappears. In the surfaces, I tried setting both the ambient and diffuse lighting to a light white to see if that would help the SR recognize the lighting, made no difference.

Help me out a bit here- in the surface tab, any recommendations? Just can't figure out what's wrong with the spotlight on the temple arch. The darned arch will only light half of it in the SR but in viewport it's more than well lit. Intensity is 100%, the scale is about 70%- help!

EDIT- changing the title because it's not just spotlights.

Post edited by Novica on
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Comments

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Post a Screen shot of your Viewport and your Spot render. Then the Spotlights Settings and I'll see if we can get you going.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Thanks, back in a few.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    I'm not sure what's going on, but it froze up on me and I had to control/alt/delete to get to my task manager and close it out. Reopened it and it's responding to the changes in diffuse, specular, and ambient now. So temple seems to be solved.
    HOWEVER,
    Still just dont have a clue which one I should use to make say, a log, more receptive to a spotlight. If it's a gray log, and it seems like I'm not getting the same level of spotlight color (say blue) that I want when I spot render, which one would you recommend I change first to see if I can enrich the blues? I changed all of them to a light blue/white, but not sure if I should mess with all three.

    And Multiply Specular Through Opacity- should that always be on? I was trying to find a thread that explained all those bumps in Surfaces tab, if you can just point me in the direction I'll be happy to read up on my own. I know you guys are tired of repeating the same stuff to us newbies over and over :)

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    Well, in truth editing the Items Surfaces has nothing to do with how the Light affects it, except for Reflection, Refraction and Specular. You should Edit the Light itself and Mostly just the Color of the Light. And Intensity.

    EDIT: UberSurface Shader has many more options but still the Light used is still what you should edit, not the Items surfaces.

    Post edited by Jaderail on
  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    I May have missed the Point, if your just editing the Spotlight The Diffuse and Intensity are your friends. If needed you can click the Intensity setting GEAR and change the Limit to a Higher setting.

    Here is the Same image with only the Intensity changed.

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    Post edited by Jaderail on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    That was what I tried initially, the intensity of the light, and it was absolutely ridiculous what I was showing in the viewport (a HOT BRIGHT BLUE, a glowing blue log!) vs the spot render (NOTHING. Nada. Gray log.) Unless I changed the surface of the log, nothing would show differently in the spot render. Since I've already changed the log (and cant remember what the settings were in surface, let me go to another part of my scene and select something, and see if I can duplicate those results.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited March 2013

    Here's what is happening without any fiddlin' with Surfaces. (Linear Point Light) Intensity way up, does nothing in spot render. I'm going to need Garibaldi if I keep this up, pulling out my hair!!!!!

    EDIT: BTW, as suspected and mentioned as a possible culprit- the dark images in the other thread were indeed Corel Draw issues. I changed the setting to RGB and these were fine when posted. It just didnt like the CMYK for some reason.

    spotlight2RGB.jpg
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    Post edited by Novica on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    I've messed with the Falloff Start/ End, moved both from 10 to up to 150, not seeing any difference whatsoever in glow showing up where it's supposed to. (As I haven't a clue what those things do, just experimenting. I assume the Falloff is where the light goes kaput. Don't you love newbies?)

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,817
    edited December 1969

    Novica said:
    That was what I tried initially, the intensity of the light, and it was absolutely ridiculous what I was showing in the viewport (a HOT BRIGHT BLUE, a glowing blue log!) vs the spot render (NOTHING. Nada. Gray log.) Unless I changed the surface of the log, nothing would show differently in the spot render. Since I've already changed the log (and cant remember what the settings were in surface, let me go to another part of my scene and select something, and see if I can duplicate those results.

    That sounds a lot like the Ambient color was set to white and the strength to 100%...the light is blue, the log is grey.

    (top image, ambient is on)

    (bottom ambient is off...)

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  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    So if I am having trouble, mess with the ambient first?

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Ugh, ambient is on black. Care to explain what these other settings are / post reference to a thread that explains them? The lighting model I assume is very important- should I be using plastic for a people/forest scene?

    Hope the image shows up, I used "sharpen" to help with the print, and did it in RGB again.

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  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    All (diffuse, specular, ambient) all set to light whitish blue, even turning up the ambient to an almost white log (which I dont want- I want a glow on a DARK log, this isnt going to be the focus of my render!!!!!) did not get a blue glow on the lower section. Again, I know this is all in surfaces, but intensity is at a ridiculous level (200%) and no Fallout is making a difference.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Tried lighting the noggins dragonfly, getting nowhere with it either. The surfaces and the (lighting neither one) are making changes that are appropriate. So want answers on the settings for surfaces and lighting- turning up the intensity to 200% on things is STUPID, and the ambient, diffuse, specular are on light whitish blue- which ruins the items in the scene but otherwise, lighting isnt taking.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    I have no Idea exactly what you mean by Glow but I did this to show you what I think you are trying to do.

    1 Viewport
    2 Light Settings
    3 Render

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    Post edited by Jaderail on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    You're correct- that's what I have been adjusting. I tried moving the starting and ending numbers to no avail. Sometime tomorrow I'll try to do a screenshot and show you the dragonfly, the different settings I tried with the lights, the lights and surfaces changed, etc. It's going on 4am and I have to get some sleep. Thank you so much btw!
    Cathie

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,788
    edited December 1969

    Fall off means how the light fades out, so if you keep the start at 0 and the end point higher, then the light will be at it brightest at the starting point and fade out to nothing at the end point.

    Surfaces Pane setting http://homepage.eircom.net/~neilvpose/ds-settings.htm

    Multiply Through Opacity/Reflections are used for transperent surfaces like glass etc. Example if you set a glass surface to say 10% opaticty theh the reflection and spec will be very weak, turning off Multiply Through Opacity/Reflections will enbale full reflection and spec to occur.

    I think you ned to step back a bit a read up on the Surface setting Pane and do some simple test yourself.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    The dragonfly must not have the right settings or something, appreciate whatever you can do to get this on track. If I were to just do a screenshot of what the dragonfly should look like, it would be the first one, with the pink/purple wings and more bluish body. In the render I did that is totally screwed up, it has a gorgeous pink body with glowing blue and green highlights. I took SO much time to get the critter glowing, it's heartbreaking to see these crappy results.

    Can't achieve it. I get this dragonfly that looks like a plastic pink toy, no detail/sparkle. I put a bright green spotlight on the front to give it a glow, does nothing. Tried messing with the surfaces, the lighting, just the lighting, just the surfaces. Argh.

    Spotlight in front of dragonfly is green. Keep in mind I dont know what most of these do: (intensity an spread obviously I do)
    Lighting:
    intensity 200, spread 12.45
    Illumination on, shadow type raytraced
    shadow softness 0 and bias is 1.00

    In Lighting Display: all settings on but display persistance Off.
    Ray length 2.50 (reaches the dragonfly and shoots past)
    opacity scale 131.5, took down to 15, no difference in spot render
    ray opacity 15.8 , took to 90, no difference in spot render
    Show base off, base opacity 15.1, show edge off
    edge opacity 20

    Surfaces: for Dragonfly
    diffuse color light pink, strength 100
    glossy 0
    specular is white, strength 20
    multiply specular through opacity on
    ambient color hot pink, strength 50
    opacity strength 100
    bump strength 100
    negative bump -.010, positive bump .010
    displacement strength 0
    reflection color white, strength 80
    refraction color white, strength 0
    light model plastic
    default UV's

    Any other info needed to figure this out? Thanks in advance. First image- what it looks like similar to other render, close to what I want. Wings are glittery and not opaque.
    Second image- current render, with the spotlights on it to try and add glow or something to the pink. Third is the render. (barf. )

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  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Hi Szark!
    I had read that, and tried moving the starting and dropping off lengths, and the spot render showed no difference. I turned off all the other lights except the one I was working on, so I could see what it was doing, and did spot renders with each change. The light appeared to be hitting the logs, dragonfly, temple (solved the temple/log problem one by adjusting the ambient and diffuse, but this dragonfly is refusing to cooperate.)

    I'm glad you listed that page though, I had read it previously but didn't bookmark.
    I've tried the different settings and just not seeing changes. I'm hoping by looking at what I've just posted there will be a glaring, obvious setting that is out of place.

    Cathie

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,788
    edited December 1969

    intensity 200, spread 12.45
    Illumination on, shadow type raytraced
    shadow softness 0 and bias is 1.00For something this small shadow bias could work better at 0.10

    In Lighting Display: all settings on but display persistance Off.
    Ray length 2.50 (reaches the dragonfly and shoots past)
    opacity scale 131.5, took down to 15, no difference in spot render
    ray opacity 15.8 , took to 90, no difference in spot render
    Show base off, base opacity 15.1, show edge off
    edge opacity

    All those settings above are just visual references for the light and have no bearing on output.

    Why have you got a pink in the ambient are you wanting it to glow pink. Also reflection won't help much.

    What are you trying to achieve is a better question?

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Like the first photo- more translucent wings- and to have the colored spotlights show their colors. I had a green spotlight to give the rim a beautiful green glow along the outside edge, and a blue to do likewise- and the body of the dragonfly was to be pink. The original dragonfly is light blue. All I am getting is a pink plastic, including the wings.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,788
    edited December 1969

    The answer was in my question. Setting Ambient that high and that colour will make it glow that colour no matter what lights you have in the scene. It is a nice cheat, well amoung many, when you don't want coloured lights influencing the object, crank up the ambient. Or if you want something to glow too. :)

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    I hate to Tell you this.. When you Mix Green Blue and Pink in any Art form you Get a Deeper Blue. That's basic Color mixing. Your not doing anything wrong. To get the effect your trying for will call for Multi Renders and then Layering and Blending the Different Images in an 2D art program. One With Standard Lights, One with Green and One with Blue.

    Post edited by Jaderail on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited March 2013

    Understand about color mixing- none of the spotlights overlap, I turn off all other lights after I set a light to see where they are impacting the character/subject, then turn them on in sets to see where they cross, etc. One was along the tail section for example, the other was the very edge of the chest. I am trying different things (but headed out the door to the ranch before it gets dark) and do have a question. I am reading that page on surfaces and not sure about the multiply specular through opacity, should that be ON for the wings to make them more transparent, if I read that right? (One stupid moment was when I realized I could expand the dragonfly and have different settings for the wings and eyes. Sheesh.)

    I also made the dragonfly a light blue and will lower the ambient to see if my spotlights are better. Thanks for the tip :) I'll post results later tonight. Have I told you at least a hundred times the past week how much I appreciate your patience?! If so, here's 101.

    Cathie

    Post edited by Novica on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    This is what has me confused from that page:

    This is a simple on or off switch and only really comes in to play when you start making objects transparent using the opacity settings. When it is on the highlight is affected by the opacity settings so it’s just as transparent as the object, when it is set to off the highlight is not affected by the opacity settings and the object is more transparent than the highlight.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,788
    edited December 1969

    You mean Mutliply Through Opacity? Ok take glass for example, it is very reflective and therefore when clean shiny it is more reflective than when dirty. Anyhoo if we leave this on then when you make the glass surface very transparent then the highlights and reflectivity lowers so by turning this off we can have good relfective properties and strong highslights. So lowering opactity lower these effects, turning it off engages these effects even though the surfaces is either 100% transparent or varing degress of.This goes for the Cornea of the eye, water etc etc.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited March 2013

    Still working on it, but "ta-duh!" Getting there.

    I really want to encourage those of you who are having difficulties to post on the forum. These folks really jump in to help and there are no stupid questions. See the number of posts I have since Sept? Many of them were "Uh-oh, now what do I do?" and I ALWAYS got kind answers and never felt like an idiot for asking. Case in point, look at this dragonfly now compared to my pink plastic one. Still not done, but much happier. You can't change what you're doing (right or wrong) if you don't ask for help.

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    Post edited by Novica on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,788
    edited December 1969

    Oh that is look nice...well done. I love it when people persevere when faced with learning all this.

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    Oh that is look nice...well done. I love it when people persevere when faced with learning all this.

    Only because of you, Jaderail, Totte, ScottLivingston, mjc1016, Richard, Tramp Graphics, kitakoredaz, and about ten other regulars who never let me flounder.

    Now if I can just figure out what those textures are (I like them, just not sure where they came from!) I'm checking opacity and the settings to see what I've done. Some of it are shadows (which I haven't softened yet, and I do that with the light settings if I'm thinking correctly. For other complete newbies, you click on the light in the Scene setting, go Parameters, you'll see the Shadow section and you set it there.) Can someone quickly explain how the bias part works with the other setting? (I don't have Studio open at the moment, I think it was softness?)

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited December 1969

    I will post what I did in Surfaces and Lighting for all the folks following this thread who want similar effects. Not guaranteeing I went about this the right way though, lol. Back in awhile, have to do the copy/pasting/screenshots and multi-tasking.
    Cathie

  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,596
    edited March 2013

    I am going to assume some of you reading this are just starting out (like me) and some of you have not tried getting a gradient-type rainbow using lights. I'm SURE there are other ways of doing it, but here's my (newbie) way.

    I lightened the body of the dragonfly and wings to a light color so the lights would provide the color. Here's what you may not know if you are brand new to this. Note the image- how the lights are clustered? Here's how-

    Let's use the wings. You fix a spotlight, (my favorite light to use so far as positioning. Let's call this one Spotlight A) on the wing closest to the body. Now you're thinking, "How do I do another band next to it, higher up on the wing?"
    1. Click Spotlight A in the Scene tab.
    2. Go to upper left and click Create>New Spotlight
    3. In the popup, click "Copy Selected Items "
    4. Your new spotlight will be where Spotlight A is. Let's call it Spotlight B (surprise, surprise)
    5. Use the Parameters tab and try Y translation (up and down) first. By moving UP you should be slightly above the color laid down by Spotlight A. Use X and Z if you need to move left/right or backward/forward- but start with Y first.
    6. Keep repeating as you move up the wing- you'd copy Spotlight B (it would be selected in Scene, then you click on Create/New Spotlight, then "Copy Selected Items") to get Spotlight C higher up the wing. And so forth

    TIP: I turn off ALL other lights when doing lighting- I can see exactly where my light is. I like this better than camera views, but that's just personal preference.

    TIP: Turn up the intensity of the light so you can see where it falls. Once you have it in place, turn down intensity.

    TIP: Remember, you can go to Scene and click the eyeball and turn objects off and make them invisible in the scene. If you are turning your scene around and stuff gets in the way, eyeball those suckers to make them go poof so you can clearly see the lighting without playing peek-a-boo around trees, columns, people, etc. Just remember to turn them back on in the scene.

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    Post edited by Novica on
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