Carrara is just so unexplanably DIFFERENT ~ bizarrest thread ever (and why we should probably leave)

holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Just read this very odd thread which is now closed, yet I think it is valuable info for Carrara users:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/17966/

«13

Comments

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    We wanted to have a sincere discussion about this, however the thread kept getting out of hand. Discussion threads are very rarely, if ever, allowed in the freepository, but some thought this discussion should be allowed

    I did try and keep the thread on track, but it was not to be.

    However the freebie challenge is hardly a mainstream event, and is more about having fun while digging up freebie links to share with others, and I am was very surprised at the amount of hard feeling and attacking posts that were made in the thread, with very little actual discussion about the whys and wherefores of the question. Don't expect to find renders in the thread that would stand up in any normal contest, that is not what the freebie challenge is about. In fact if you read right through the thread, both before and after you posted to it, you will see we do keep stressing just what the freebie challenge is about. Note Music's post where he says

    The free stuff is cool, but the fun is cooler

    I did point out to the OP that there is a contest that is much more likely to appeal to her, which is designed to help a new user develop their skills. In fact I mentioned it twice, in some detail, but that was ignored on both occasions.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Always appreciate your attempts to keep the peace, Chohole.

    But when the answers are "because those are the rules so go away..." it's hard to not believe there are some very REAL reasons that aren't being said. Several apples were compared to apples, and oranges compared to oranges, yet 2 + 2 seems to add up to 5.

    Little surprise no one was satisfied with the answers. Something "for fun" should be for fun, no? I mean GOLF is fun too..., no matter the circular excuses to keep racially different people out of the country clubs....

    ;-)

  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,671
    edited March 2013

    yes, they only get a few participants, would not want it over-trodden by mobs of Carraraites
    need someone with munny to share to start one HERE!!!!
    (not me, no munny to share, mine mine mine!!!!!!)
    only Carrara made content (and native browser models allowed) perhaps!!! lol

    Post edited by JaguarElla on
  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,671
    edited December 1969

    Stu Suttcliffe would win it every month though

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    WE are just not geared up in the Freebie Challenge for being attacked because of the rules for our fun challenge. As Music said, it has been going on for 6 years now with the occasional little spat, which was why we debated and then published the rules, as has always applied to the contest.

    I thnk it was Jeeperz who said that the main reason why it was decided to allow Poser as one of the allowed programs to use is because had we not done so then more than half the people who have since joined in would have been excluded (and that includes me BTW). DAZ 3D after all only became what it is because of the Poser community, that is until 2002 when the Poser 5 debacle happened. Daz continued to produce content that could be used in Poser and has done ever since, but did also start developing an alternative program, in case the worst did happen and Poser disappeared altogether.

    It is quite ironic that this sort of "discussion" about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

    Have you ever really looked at what is done in the freebie challenge.


    We do have a gallery here, if you are interested

    http://ovbi.org/gallery/v/FreebieChallenge/

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    It is quite ironic that this sort of "discussion" about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

    Is that ironic? I would not call it ironic. I would call that ECONOMIC....

    What I *would* call it ironic is that you seem to have a perfectly unjustified justification for Poser being included (despite the stated purpose of the contest)... maybe because you use it, therefore it seems "natural" that you should be allowed to participate? Funny how that justification works for you but not the rest of us.... IRONIC actually.
    :smirk:

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,782
    edited December 1969

    Keep it civil or this thread will be locked as well

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited March 2013

    chohole said:
    It is quite ironic that this sort of "discussion" about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

    Is that ironic? I would not call it ironic. I would call that ECONOMIC....

    What I *would* call it ironic is that you seem to have a perfectly unjustified justification for Poser being included (despite the stated purpose of the contest)... maybe because you use it, therefore it seems "natural" that you should be allowed to participate? Funny how that justification works for you but not the rest of us.... IRONIC actually.
    :smirk:

    I just happened to mention in passing that I use Poser, if you did follow the challenge you would see that I rarely enter, but have provided a good many of the prizes for the challenges. In other words I made the prizes, as does Music, BWSman, Celebi and Several others. I wasn't justifying the use of Poser because I use it, merely saying that by excluding Pose we were excluding more than 50% of the forum community. I was actually quite happy to provide prizes before they allowed Poser, but they got them in poser format at first, until I teamed up with my son to provide them in both DS and Poser format. I have never offered a Bryce prize, even though I only really use Bryce, as there are only a couple or 3 people who would benefit from it.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I am not criticizing anyone for participating or for providing hand-made prizes. That seems wonderful in a "freebie" contest.

    However the point is that DAZ sponsors it with what is essentially a cash value prize: a gift certificate..., it changes things doesn't it? Is it even LEGAL in the USA to run a contest with a cash value prize that excludes certain people..., yet "grandfathers" others which should be excluded by the same rules...?

    By the same token that excluding Poser would exclude a great many customers here, the implication is that there are not so many customers who would be using a "free" version of Carrara. By that same logic and as Wendy pointed out the same rules applying to some and not others, especially when there have been free versions of Carrara (as was the excuse given for Poser), seems very odd indeed.

    The hostility to "bend" the rules yet again for a possible handful of participants, when they seem to have been bent so liberally in the past in the name of "inclusion" and "fun"... and now cash-value prizes.... Hmmmm. It certainly does seem like a policy discrepancy that could be easily solved in a "friendly" and "inclusive" manner. Wouldn't you agree?

    :)

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    I add my last word on this subject. Had we been able to have a disciplined, civil and reasoned discussion, then the discussion could have taken place, but it was negative from the beginning, and didn't improve but rather got worse, so the discussion was locked. Starting a discussion with an attack is not a good start, but if it cannot be turned round, then the discussion becomes pointless as it is not a discussion, rather it is an argument, which is against the DAZ 3D Forum TOS.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    I add my last word on this subject. Had we been able to have a disciplined, civil and reasoned discussion, then the discussion could have taken place, but it was negative from the beginning, and didn't improve but rather got worse, so the discussion was locked. Starting a discussion with an attack is not a good start, but if it cannot be turned round, then the discussion becomes pointless as it is not a discussion, rather it is an argument, which is against the DAZ 3D Forum TOS.

    I am trying to determine if you feel that I have made an "attack" statement against you... I do not believe I have made any attack against anyone.... If you feel attacked I certainly apologize, and value your contribution in this very civil discussion.
    :)

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    LOL, since I have been a Mod I have grown a set of broad shoulders and a thick skin. :coolsmile:

    However there were some very definite attacks in the thread towards others, most of which were removed once they started getting very pointed and going back and forward.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,918
    edited March 2013

    not that it matters but yes, Carrara has been given away in the past on magazine DVD's (asfarasIknow)
    so if it's all about free software, it should qualify - as long as the poster/user promises he didnt pay for it.......

    edit: sorry Holly I see you mentioned that

    Post edited by head wax on
  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited December 1969

    I enjoyed that thread.

    I tried to present logical arguments (peppered with comments about The Millennium Cow) (Can't be helped) but to no avail.

    I still maintain that there is a HUGE amount of hypocrisy in the allowed software (I said it there, and I'll repeat it here - Carrara Has been free on several occasions but the shoddy excuses they give for it "not counting" are simply a means of covering their Fear of Carrara). First it was because it is not a free program, then they complained it would give people an unfair advantage, then it got ugly.

    My point that allowing poser simply because so many people use it amounted to a "mob rules" mentality was lost on everybody. If sheer numbers made Law - minorities would be in even worse trouble than they already are.

    I sensed a lot of denial on all sides in that "debate" and hope one day they'll grow up and allow us to play in their sandbox.

    Until then... it's their sandbox and they can make whatever rules they please.

    But I must admit that I took a perverse pleasure in how riled my comments got some people (OK, One person). As if even questioning THEIR RULES was somehow whining and complaining and even disrupting the actual contest (despite doing so in a thread dedicated to questioning the rules!).

    Still, maybe it opened some eyes, if not minds.

    What we really should do is petition DAZ to release Carrara 5 (or 6?) for free. Even temporarily. It could only serve to boost awareness of their "Flagship" program and may make folks more interested in buying the new version.

    The one thing I wanted to respond to in there, but was too late, was the bit about "just use another program" - I NEVER could understand DAZ Studio's lights. Still can't (and it's only gotten worse since D|S 3, 4, and 4.5 with it's unusable interface with tabs taking up 2/3 of the screen) (and yes, I tried tutorials - but I simply can't make sense of Studio's lights)

    Poser is learn-able now that I got a free copy of Debut - but I have no interest in learning it.

    Bryce is too dependent upon Studio for content that I very rarely use it except for non-content stuff like Fractals and such. And Bryce's interface leaves me totally confused. It's not the way I think.

    The point is that Carrara makes sense to me while none of the other programs come easily at all. So the argument that we should just "have fun" ignores the fact that all those other programs have always been work for me, and I only have fun with Carrara. Despite being able to make some semblance of a render from those other programs, none of them are fun for me.

    Wow ... Long post.

    Better close with yet another reminder that all this ugliness could have been avoided if only DAZ had released The Millennium Cow like Dan Farr PROMISED me!! Only The Millennium Cow can bring about Universal Tolerance and World Peace.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    LOL, since I have been a Mod I have grown a set of broad shoulders and a thick skin. :coolsmile:

    However there were some very definite attacks in the thread towards others, most of which were removed once they started getting very pointed and going back and forward.


    Yes, agree. And my goal is not to continue a contentious thread.... However this is a DAZ 3D sponsored contest where the rules are (I'm sorry) not satisfactory in its false and quite circular logic for excluding Carrara users. Unfortunately this is a Carrara issue, and a DAZ 3D issue, and also a larger community issue.... If the reasons were technical (for example a feature in Carrara) that would be another issue altogether..., but it does not appear to be any reason in particular that we Carrara users could determine.... It seems we are separate and not equal. I think we would like to understand why?

    Since Poser is allowed because otherwise there would not be enough participants (?) then excluding Carrara seems contrary to that goal of gaining more participants.... Correct me how I am wrong.

    I'm sorry this is discomforting to you, I am just curious how Carrara is so different, or perhaps it is Carrara Users that are unwelcome in this community? I think the questions were quite valid, it wasn't the question but the bizarre excuses that seem not in the spirit of "fun" and "inclusion"of a DAZ 3D sponsored contest... Again, seems like a very simple fix to this uncomfortable and apparently contentious policy: don't do it. A larger welcoming community is a stronger community....

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Sorry, I meant to say this could be solved with the Millennium Cow (even though it is 13 years past the millenium by now...) :)

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    Poser is included because it's users equate to at least 50% of this forum community, whether people like to admit it or not, and because Poser Debute is free, not a copy included in the price of a magazine.

    And Cows are sometimes the cause of problems, not the solution, but there is a solution to the worst problem about cows.

    cows2.jpg
    600 x 406 - 42K
  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Poser is included because it's users equate to at least 50% of this forum community, whether people like to admit it or not, and because Poser Debute is free, not a copy included in the price of a magazine.

    And Cows are sometimes the cause of problems, not the solution, but there is a solution to the worst problem about cows.

    But with DAZ Officially sponsoring the thing now, and with their recent heavy handed insistence on supporting their PA's and promoting DAZ above all others, I find that to be at least a little hypocritical.

    And The Millennium Cow comes with a morph which converts it's Methane into Ethanol! It's part of how it's release will bring about World Peace. Just use a Morph Transfer Utility and give this option to ALL Cows everywhere. Imagine if all that gas suddenly became intoxicating!

    The world would be a better place.

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Poser is included because it's users equate to at least 50% of this forum community, whether people like to admit it or not...

    I don't see anyone denying that, or attacking Poser.... Again this bizarre reaction.

    I'm sorry, but if there is any hostility in this thread it is not coming from Carrara Users.... :sick:

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    Not in this thread maybe.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 7,695
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Poser is included because it's users equate to at least 50% of this forum community, whether people like to admit it or not, and because Poser Debute is free, not a copy included in the price of a magazine.

    And Cows are sometimes the cause of problems, not the solution, but there is a solution to the worst problem about cows.


    I don't think I read anywhere a denial of the number of Poser users. Perhaps I missed something? The point made, which seems to be ignored, is that it's a bizarre exclusion in a DAZ sponsored contest. I read many times it [the contest] is supposed to be fun. I seem to recall when I was a scrawny little kid, being picked last for the team (or excluded completely) wasn't particularly fun. I take it as, "go home, you're not as big as us, we don't want you to play." Sounds fun to me. :roll:


    As Sock pointed out in the other thread, nothing is free. You have to be able to pay for the internet connection and fast bandwidth to download DAZ Studio and Poser. You have to pay for the electricity to power your computer. Yes, you may have to pay for a magazine, but it's still advertised as free, with DAZ's blessing. Seems to me if something is labeled as free it should be eligible.


    It's whomever's contest, so they can have whatever rules they want. Even exclusionary rules. Personally, I would think DAZ would want contests to include the widest range of customers.

  • 3dView3dView Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Heading over to the Carrara Cafe...........these threads hurt my head.

    rich

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    3dView said:
    Heading over to the Carrara Cafe...........these threads hurt my head.

    rich


    I promise to put in more time getting the new sections at Cafe up to speed in the next few days. We will be able to share Carrara content and have a much better social experience soon...

    (without the H83RZ)

    Post edited by holly wetcircuit on
  • StezzaStezza Posts: 1,059
    edited December 1969

    every time I try to head over to carraracafe I get this warning..


    any ideas?

    carraracafe.jpg
    696 x 485 - 45K
  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Stezza said:
    every time I try to head over to carraracafe I get this warning..


    any ideas?


    :gulp: It may be related to the delays in page loads some people are reporting... I think there is an alternate theme that loads if a mobile browser is detected... I am not a super web guru, but I will try to look for what might cause it.

    Sorry about that... We have a topic here for cafe... It's all volunteers but if you want to check in to that thread there is more info.... since you can't get to the site right now... And I will be doing some more backend clean up over the next 2-3 days....

  • StezzaStezza Posts: 1,059
    edited December 1969

    I uninstalled bitdefender and went back to MS internet security.. can now get onto site

    but

    was the memberlist deleted at some stage as I had to re-register?

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    "Bryce, Hexagon, Blender, Poser and Daz are allowed for the contest."

    Bryce has been but is not now free.
    Hexagon has been but is not now free.
    Blender has always been free.
    Poser has been but is not now free.
    Studio is now but has not always been free.

    So how does carrara not fit with those? Other then it is the superior app; except maybe for blender.
    Carrara has been but is not free now. It can use the same content as studio or poser, and it can model like hex or blender. So how is it not qualified to be used?

    Regardless of personal bias, the only reason I can see for carrara to not be eligible is anticarrara bias. There is no other explanation I can see.
    It's like we have been saying for years, carrarests are the red headed step children of the DAZ family.

    BWSman dude, I've been trying for years to get it through to newbies that the app is studio the company is DAZ, you should know better ;) lol

    Go ahead, I know you are going to.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 621
    edited March 2013

    chohole said:
    Poser is included because it's users equate to at least 50% of this forum community, whether people like to admit it or not, and because Poser Debute is free, not a copy included in the price of a magazine.

    So only Poser Debut is allowed?

    The rules don't say that. The rules also allow use of non-free content (easily hundreds of dollars worth), but the software has to be free -- unless it's Poser?

    And you're trying to tell me this is anything other than arbitrary sillyness? Bah humbug.

    Edit: Had a memory failure there; apparently non-free items are limited to three. It's still nonsense though :P

    Post edited by araneldon on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    The whole freebie challenge is mostly sillyness. I am really not quite certain why the Carrara people are making such a fuss about the rules after 6 years of it running.

    The OP of the thread that Holly linked to did also find fault with the Members Only Contests, which are mainstream contests and feature in the Newsletters etc, whereas our fun Freebie challenge has only ever been seen in the Freepository and until now has only been noticed by people who do use that forum.

    I did post options for the OP, including using the learning contests in the NU forum if she wanted to improve her art, and even maybe making a suggestion in the suggestion thread in the NU contest forum to ask for a Carrara only contest, as we have already had a Bryce only one there, although normally they are not app specific, and all apps are welcome.

  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited March 2013

    I don't think the consternation is from anything to do with excluding Carrara so much as the flimsy and insulting excuses given for excluding it.

    I had more respect for the arrogant and rude "Dems Da Rules" excuse than the whole "well, poser was once free a long time ago, and there's a crippled and limited free version available now, so the super expensive poser pro is obviously OK - but since Carrara was only free in magazines or beta form - it cannot possibly be considered" excuse.

    Face it - the logic there is flawed.


    EDIT - Plus the whole thing with DAZ sponsoring it now does change things. At the very least it invalidates the whole "long 6 year history" excuse because DAZ has certainly not been involved directly for all that time!

    Post edited by Sockratease on
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