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Carrara is just so unexplanably DIFFERENT ~ bizarrest thread ever (and why we should probably leave)
Posted: 08 March 2013 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Just read this very odd thread which is now closed, yet I think it is valuable info for Carrara users:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/17966/

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Posted: 08 March 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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We wanted to have a sincere discussion about this, however the thread kept getting out of hand. Discussion threads are very rarely, if ever, allowed in the freepository, but some thought this discussion should be allowed

I did try and keep the thread on track, but it was not to be.

However the freebie challenge is hardly a mainstream event, and is more about having fun while digging up freebie links to share with others, and I am was very surprised at the amount of hard feeling and attacking posts that were made in the thread, with very little actual discussion about the whys and wherefores of the question. Don’t expect to find renders in the thread that would stand up in any normal contest, that is not what the freebie challenge is about. In fact if you read right through the thread, both before and after you posted to it, you will see we do keep stressing just what the freebie challenge is about.  Note Music’s post where he says

The free stuff is cool, but the fun is cooler

I did point out to the OP that there is a contest that is much more likely to appeal to her, which is designed to help a new user develop their skills. In fact I mentioned it twice, in some detail, but that was ignored on both occasions.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Always appreciate your attempts to keep the peace, Chohole.

But when the answers are “because those are the rules so go away…” it’s hard to not believe there are some very REAL reasons that aren’t being said. Several apples were compared to apples, and oranges compared to oranges, yet 2 + 2 seems to add up to 5.

Little surprise no one was satisfied with the answers. Something “for fun” should be for fun, no? I mean GOLF is fun too…, no matter the circular excuses to keep racially different people out of the country clubs….

wink

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Posted: 08 March 2013 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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yes, they only get a few participants, would not want it over-trodden by mobs of Carraraites
need someone with munny to share to start one HERE!!!!
(not me, no munny to share, mine mine mine!!!!!!)
only Carrara made content (and native browser models allowed) perhaps!!! lol

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Posted: 08 March 2013 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Stu Suttcliffe would win it every month though

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Posted: 08 March 2013 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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WE are just not geared up in the Freebie Challenge for being attacked because of the rules for our fun challenge.  As Music said, it has been going on for 6 years now with the occasional little spat, which was why we debated and then published the rules, as has always applied to the contest.

I thnk it was Jeeperz who said that the main reason why it was decided to allow Poser as one of the allowed programs to use is because had we not done so then more than half the people who have since joined in would have been excluded (and that includes me BTW).  DAZ 3D after all only became what it is because of the Poser community, that is until 2002 when the Poser 5 debacle happened.  Daz continued to produce content that could be used in Poser and has done ever since, but did also start developing an alternative program, in case the worst did happen and Poser disappeared altogether.

It is quite ironic that this sort of “discussion” about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

Have you ever really looked at what is done in the freebie challenge.


We do have a gallery here, if you are interested

http://ovbi.org/gallery/v/FreebieChallenge/

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Posted: 08 March 2013 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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chohole - 08 March 2013 02:25 PM

It is quite ironic that this sort of “discussion” about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

Is that ironic? I would not call it ironic. I would call that ECONOMIC….

What I *would* call it ironic is that you seem to have a perfectly unjustified justification for Poser being included (despite the stated purpose of the contest)... maybe because you use it, therefore it seems “natural” that you should be allowed to participate? Funny how that justification works for you but not the rest of us…. IRONIC actually.
smirk

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Keep it civil or this thread will be locked as well

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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holly wetcircuit - 08 March 2013 02:57 PM
chohole - 08 March 2013 02:25 PM

It is quite ironic that this sort of “discussion” about our rules has only really started since we persuaded DAZ 3D to give us a modicum of sponsorship in the form of vouchers originally, but now for the last 2 months Gift Certs. Before that we were supporting the Challenge ourselves, and had no real problems of this sort.

Is that ironic? I would not call it ironic. I would call that ECONOMIC….

What I *would* call it ironic is that you seem to have a perfectly unjustified justification for Poser being included (despite the stated purpose of the contest)... maybe because you use it, therefore it seems “natural” that you should be allowed to participate? Funny how that justification works for you but not the rest of us…. IRONIC actually.
smirk

I just happened to mention in passing that I use Poser, if you did follow the challenge you would see that I rarely enter, but have provided a good many of the prizes for the challenges. In other words I made the prizes, as does Music, BWSman, Celebi and Several others. I wasn’t justifying the use of Poser because I use it, merely saying that by excluding Pose we were excluding more than 50% of the forum community. I was actually quite happy to provide prizes before they allowed Poser, but they got them in poser format at first, until I teamed up with my son to provide them in both DS and Poser format.  I have never offered a Bryce prize, even though I only really use Bryce, as there are only a couple or 3 people who would benefit from it.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I am not criticizing anyone for participating or for providing hand-made prizes. That seems wonderful in a “freebie” contest.

However the point is that DAZ sponsors it with what is essentially a cash value prize: a gift certificate…, it changes things doesn’t it? Is it even LEGAL in the USA to run a contest with a cash value prize that excludes certain people…, yet “grandfathers” others which should be excluded by the same rules…?

By the same token that excluding Poser would exclude a great many customers here, the implication is that there are not so many customers who would be using a “free” version of Carrara. By that same logic and as Wendy pointed out the same rules applying to some and not others, especially when there have been free versions of Carrara (as was the excuse given for Poser), seems very odd indeed.

The hostility to “bend” the rules yet again for a possible handful of participants, when they seem to have been bent so liberally in the past in the name of “inclusion” and “fun”... and now cash-value prizes…. Hmmmm. It certainly does seem like a policy discrepancy that could be easily solved in a “friendly” and “inclusive” manner. Wouldn’t you agree?

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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I add my last word on this subject. Had we been able to have a disciplined, civil and reasoned discussion, then the discussion could have taken place, but it was negative from the beginning, and didn’t improve but rather got worse, so the discussion was locked. Starting a discussion with an attack is not a good start, but if it cannot be turned round, then the discussion becomes pointless as it is not a discussion, rather it is an argument, which is against the DAZ 3D Forum TOS.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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chohole - 08 March 2013 03:37 PM

I add my last word on this subject. Had we been able to have a disciplined, civil and reasoned discussion, then the discussion could have taken place, but it was negative from the beginning, and didn’t improve but rather got worse, so the discussion was locked. Starting a discussion with an attack is not a good start, but if it cannot be turned round, then the discussion becomes pointless as it is not a discussion, rather it is an argument, which is against the DAZ 3D Forum TOS.

I am trying to determine if you feel that I have made an “attack” statement against you… I do not believe I have made any attack against anyone…. If you feel attacked I certainly apologize, and value your contribution in this very civil discussion.
smile

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Posted: 08 March 2013 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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LOL, since I have been a Mod I have grown a set of broad shoulders and a thick skin.  cool smile

However there were some very definite attacks in the thread towards others, most of which were removed once they started getting very pointed and going back and forward.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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not that it matters but yes, Carrara has been given away in the past on magazine DVD’s (asfarasIknow)
so if it’s all about free software, it should qualify - as long as the poster/user promises he didnt pay for it…....

edit: sorry Holly I see you mentioned that

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Posted: 08 March 2013 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I enjoyed that thread.

I tried to present logical arguments (peppered with comments about The Millennium Cow)  (Can’t be helped)  but to no avail.

I still maintain that there is a HUGE amount of hypocrisy in the allowed software (I said it there, and I’ll repeat it here - Carrara Has been free on several occasions but the shoddy excuses they give for it “not counting” are simply a means of covering their Fear of Carrara).  First it was because it is not a free program, then they complained it would give people an unfair advantage, then it got ugly.

My point that allowing poser simply because so many people use it amounted to a “mob rules” mentality was lost on everybody.  If sheer numbers made Law - minorities would be in even worse trouble than they already are.

I sensed a lot of denial on all sides in that “debate” and hope one day they’ll grow up and allow us to play in their sandbox.

Until then…  it’s their sandbox and they can make whatever rules they please.

But I must admit that I took a perverse pleasure in how riled my comments got some people (OK, One person).  As if even questioning THEIR RULES was somehow whining and complaining and even disrupting the actual contest (despite doing so in a thread dedicated to questioning the rules!).

Still, maybe it opened some eyes, if not minds.

What we really should do is petition DAZ to release Carrara 5 (or 6?) for free.  Even temporarily.  It could only serve to boost awareness of their “Flagship” program and may make folks more interested in buying the new version.

The one thing I wanted to respond to in there, but was too late, was the bit about “just use another program” - I NEVER could understand DAZ Studio’s lights.  Still can’t (and it’s only gotten worse since D|S 3, 4, and 4.5 with it’s unusable interface with tabs taking up 2/3 of the screen)  (and yes, I tried tutorials - but I simply can’t make sense of Studio’s lights) 

Poser is learn-able now that I got a free copy of Debut -  but I have no interest in learning it.

Bryce is too dependent upon Studio for content that I very rarely use it except for non-content stuff like Fractals and such.  And Bryce’s interface leaves me totally confused.  It’s not the way I think.

The point is that Carrara makes sense to me while none of the other programs come easily at all.  So the argument that we should just “have fun” ignores the fact that all those other programs have always been work for me, and I only have fun with Carrara.  Despite being able to make some semblance of a render from those other programs, none of them are fun for me.

Wow ...  Long post.

Better close with yet another reminder that all this ugliness could have been avoided if only DAZ had released The Millennium Cow like Dan Farr PROMISED me!!  Only The Millennium Cow can bring about Universal Tolerance and World Peace.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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chohole - 08 March 2013 03:57 PM

LOL, since I have been a Mod I have grown a set of broad shoulders and a thick skin.  cool smile

However there were some very definite attacks in the thread towards others, most of which were removed once they started getting very pointed and going back and forward.

Yes, agree. And my goal is not to continue a contentious thread…. However this is a DAZ 3D sponsored contest where the rules are (I’m sorry) not satisfactory in its false and quite circular logic for excluding Carrara users. Unfortunately this is a Carrara issue, and a DAZ 3D issue, and also a larger community issue…. If the reasons were technical (for example a feature in Carrara) that would be another issue altogether…, but it does not appear to be any reason in particular that we Carrara users could determine…. It seems we are separate and not equal. I think we would like to understand why?

Since Poser is allowed because otherwise there would not be enough participants (?) then excluding Carrara seems contrary to that goal of gaining more participants…. Correct me how I am wrong.

I’m sorry this is discomforting to you, I am just curious how Carrara is so different, or perhaps it is Carrara Users that are unwelcome in this community? I think the questions were quite valid, it wasn’t the question but the bizarre excuses that seem not in the spirit of “fun” and “inclusion"of a DAZ 3D sponsored contest… Again, seems like a very simple fix to this uncomfortable and apparently contentious policy: don’t do it. A larger welcoming community is a stronger community….

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