Digital Art Zone

 
   
3 of 5
3
64bit
Posted: 12 March 2013 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  134
Joined  2003-10-09
David Brinnen - 12 March 2013 12:55 PM

Law of diminishing returns anyone?

Strictly speaking, the question you’re asking is “law of diminishing returns, David?”

Your numbers-crunched-per-pound-spent criterion ascribes an arbitrary value to the numbers-crunched, based entirely on the cost of a particular performing processor at a given time.

In your shoes, assuming similar intense levels of Brycing interest and abilty with such successful prolific output and quality, I would assign an extemely high value to numbers-crunched and choose a processor that gave me the most I could possibly afford.

But that’s just my appreciation of economic value. The same appreciation that made me value what you do and say enough to get back out of bed, navigate to the computer and fire it up to respond to your comment, having thought about it enough to prevent sleep.

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 March 2013 02:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2536
Joined  2004-07-06
_ PJF _ - 12 March 2013 08:45 PM
David Brinnen - 12 March 2013 12:55 PM

Law of diminishing returns anyone?

Strictly speaking, the question you’re asking is “law of diminishing returns, David?”

Your numbers-crunched-per-pound-spent criterion ascribes an arbitrary value to the numbers-crunched, based entirely on the cost of a particular performing processor at a given time.

In your shoes, assuming similar intense levels of Brycing interest and abilty with such successful prolific output and quality, I would assign an extemely high value to numbers-crunched and choose a processor that gave me the most I could possibly afford.

But that’s just my appreciation of economic value. The same appreciation that made me value what you do and say enough to get back out of bed, navigate to the computer and fire it up to respond to your comment, having thought about it enough to prevent sleep.

 

Thank you!  I read carefully every word - at least twice and in a slightly different order - that’s not special treatment, just my special reading (in)ability.

Today my computer booted again - woo… but the hard drive is thrashing and making “the noise” that frightens me - “the noise” we all fear to come from hard drives - the one which stars with a bit of a wirrr and ends with a dull hollow “donk”.  Today I think is the day…

OK but here’s another consideration I wanted to throw into the mix from my perspective.  Not only is there an obvious cost in going for more expensive hardware - the cost - there is also the risk of leaving the majority of Bryce users behind who don’t have the advantage of super computers.  As it happens testing Bryce 7 on my old Pentium 4 was a good thing, because it highlighted when suddenly operations which should have been smooth got unexpected tardy.  On my i7 I might not have seen these changes.  It also forced me to develop ever more efficient ways of working with volumetric materials.  Which in turn made it possible for more people to experiment themselves with them.  If I were just producing images, yes a super fast PC would be great, but as a lot of my output revolves around tutorials, so I suppose it is a good idea that I experience what most people experience - at least to some extent?  I know I’m hardly suffering with the i7 but by the same token there are faster solutions out there.

Anyhow, thanks for the insights into your hardware contemplations.  I think probably there is more than just me that is Xeon curious?

 Signature 

that Bryce Tutorials Info and this Products made by Horo and myself and a link to my gallery at DAZ 3D

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 March 2013 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3376
Joined  2004-10-01

The purchase of a CPU is one thing - benchmark points per £ or $. The other thing is how expensive it is to run: W (power) per speed. Interestingly, comparing my i7 920 8-way CPU (4 cores, all multi-threadable) with the i3 (4 cores, not multi-thingy) I see that the i3 performs 60% of what the i7 does, but at half the electric power and without a noisy fan. If I have an overnight render, I don’t actually care whether it takes 4 or 6 hours since I’m sleeping through the render anyway, but I appreciate that the i3 is silent and uses less power for the same end result.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 March 2013 05:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  165
Joined  2009-07-22
David Brinnen - 13 March 2013 02:10 AM

Thank you!  I read carefully every word - at least twice and in a slightly different order - that’s not special treatment, just my special reading (in)ability.

Today my computer booted again - woo… but the hard drive is thrashing and making “the noise” that frightens me - “the noise” we all fear to come from hard drives - the one which stars with a bit of a wirrr and ends with a dull hollow “donk”.  Today I think is the day…

OK but here’s another consideration I wanted to throw into the mix from my perspective.  Not only is there an obvious cost in going for more expensive hardware - the cost - there is also the risk of leaving the majority of Bryce users behind who don’t have the advantage of super computers.  As it happens testing Bryce 7 on my old Pentium 4 was a good thing, because it highlighted when suddenly operations which should have been smooth got unexpected tardy.  On my i7 I might not have seen these changes.  It also forced me to develop ever more efficient ways of working with volumetric materials.  Which in turn made it possible for more people to experiment themselves with them.  If I were just producing images, yes a super fast PC would be great, but as a lot of my output revolves around tutorials, so I suppose it is a good idea that I experience what most people experience - at least to some extent?  I know I’m hardly suffering with the i7 but by the same token there are faster solutions out there.

Anyhow, thanks for the insights into your hardware contemplations.  I think probably there is more than just me that is Xeon curious?

I am running a thread about building a fast graphics computer:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/15714/

I am an AMD fan, but there has been a paucity of AMD response, which is why I asked Chohole about her recent experiences(response appreciated).

One of the interesting things to come out of my thread is the difference between Xeon and i7 for intel chipsets. The i7 is more the consumer based and the Xeon is more the higher-end server based with multicore and something called hyperthreading (not available on all xeon chips).  Xeon servers are usually really expensive. But one of the fellows in my thread suggested looking for something like a top of the line graphics Dell precision computer coming off, say a three year lease, with a high tech firm. This is something I’m contemplating due to cost.

Here is a helpful link that shows you the difference between Intel i-series chips and xeon series chips.  There is also a comparison bar that allows you to compare 5 chips at a time.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processor-comparison/compare-intel-processors.html

And, Dave Brinnen, Have you tried Norton Ghost?  You should be able back up a full operating disk (at least as far as 500Gb that I know of) and operating system through a USB Hard Disk sata or pata cradle.  Turn it on at night when you go to bed and you should have a new operating disk in the morning. Take the one out of you computer, switch slave to master on the one from the Sata/PATA and put it in.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 March 2013 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Addict
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4621
Joined  2004-07-01
Consumer573 - 14 March 2013 05:11 AM
David Brinnen - 13 March 2013 02:10 AM

Thank you!  I read carefully every word - at least twice and in a slightly different order - that’s not special treatment, just my special reading (in)ability.

Today my computer booted again - woo… but the hard drive is thrashing and making “the noise” that frightens me - “the noise” we all fear to come from hard drives - the one which stars with a bit of a wirrr and ends with a dull hollow “donk”.  Today I think is the day…

OK but here’s another consideration I wanted to throw into the mix from my perspective.  Not only is there an obvious cost in going for more expensive hardware - the cost - there is also the risk of leaving the majority of Bryce users behind who don’t have the advantage of super computers.  As it happens testing Bryce 7 on my old Pentium 4 was a good thing, because it highlighted when suddenly operations which should have been smooth got unexpected tardy.  On my i7 I might not have seen these changes.  It also forced me to develop ever more efficient ways of working with volumetric materials.  Which in turn made it possible for more people to experiment themselves with them.  If I were just producing images, yes a super fast PC would be great, but as a lot of my output revolves around tutorials, so I suppose it is a good idea that I experience what most people experience - at least to some extent?  I know I’m hardly suffering with the i7 but by the same token there are faster solutions out there.

Anyhow, thanks for the insights into your hardware contemplations.  I think probably there is more than just me that is Xeon curious?

I am running a thread about building a fast graphics computer:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/15714/

I am an AMD fan, but there has been a paucity of AMD response, which is why I asked Chohole about her recent experiences(response appreciated).

One of the interesting things to come out of my thread is the difference between Xeon and i7 for intel chipsets. The i7 is more the consumer based and the Xeon is more the higher-end server based with multicore and something called hyperthreading (not available on all xeon chips).  Xeon servers are usually really expensive. But one of the fellows in my thread suggested looking for something like a top of the line graphics Dell precision computer coming off, say a three year lease, with a high tech firm. This is something I’m contemplating due to cost.

Here is a helpful link that shows you the difference between Intel i-series chips and xeon series chips.  There is also a comparison bar that allows you to compare 5 chips at a time.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processor-comparison/compare-intel-processors.html

And, Dave Brinnen, Have you tried Norton Ghost?  You should be able back up a full operating disk (at least as far as 500Gb that I know of) and operating system through a USB Hard Disk sata or pata cradle.  Turn it on at night when you go to bed and you should have a new operating disk in the morning. Take the one out of you computer, switch slave to master on the one from the Sata/PATA and put it in.

I would never let any thing Norton makes near my puter !

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 March 2013 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3376
Joined  2004-10-01
bigh - 14 March 2013 08:15 AM

I would never let any thing Norton makes near my puter !

The alternative to Ghost is Acronis.

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
New Member
Total Posts:  10
Joined  2005-08-21

To me, the secret to faster renders, and particularly faster animation renders, will be making Bryce opengl compliant.  I know that’s a big step, but it serves no purpose to let the parallel processing power of GPU cards, or even multiple GPU cards, go unused, particularly while the CPU is churning away at 100%.

David Brinnen mentioned

There is not special advantage in having a fancy graphics card, although having two minors is very helpful for other reasons.

What exactly does that mean?

Also, bigh mentioned

but they took away the best thing ( animation of V4, M4, etc )

What does this refer to? Where there animation features removed from Bryce 7?

Thank you

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15306
Joined  2003-10-09

Heaven alone knows what bigh meant, he is often cryptic so only he knows the answer to that.

You can still do animation in Bryce, as much as you always have been able to. It was never psossible to animate Poser figures in Bryce, not in the same way as you can animate them in Poser or DS.

 Signature 

Chohole’s Space        Neil’Vs Freebies and stuff        L Summer Bryce Rendering Challenge        July Freebie Challenge
My DAZ 3D Gallery    11915

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  134
Joined  2003-10-09
chohole - 16 March 2013 05:50 PM

Heaven alone knows what bigh meant, he is often cryptic so only he knows the answer to that.

I thought, in some previous Bryce - DS interactive mode, it was possible to adjust the poses of figures “live” within the Bryce - DS interactive mode rather than going back to DS, adjusting, then exporting and re-importing, etc, etc. I assumed this was what bigh was referring to. Never used DS so never checked this feature out, so not sure.

I also thought bigh was female, which should probably give you some pause when considering my thoughts… :mrgreen:

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Addict
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4621
Joined  2004-07-01
aarrgghhh - 16 March 2013 05:44 PM

To me, the secret to faster renders, and particularly faster animation renders, will be making Bryce opengl compliant.  I know that’s a big step, but it serves no purpose to let the parallel processing power of GPU cards, or even multiple GPU cards, go unused, particularly while the CPU is churning away at 100%.

David Brinnen mentioned

There is not special advantage in having a fancy graphics card, although having two minors is very helpful for other reasons.

What exactly does that mean?

Also, bigh mentioned

but they took away the best thing ( animation of V4, M4, etc )

What does this refer to? Where there animation features removed from Bryce 7?

Thank you

yes we could do animation - DS to Bryce - I had more but the site is no more .

http://youtu.be/HHW9wv5AD7k

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  134
Joined  2003-10-09

...if I suddenly vanish off the radar for a few days, blame my C drive, they are seriously on the fritz now and I’m frantically backing data up as I type.


Right, c’mon Mr B, spill the beans. What happened, what did you do to recover - and what’s this Cuda thingamajig you’ve slotted in?

Hmmm, “C dive” and “they” is an ambiguous combination.  A C drive is a singular item outside of a RAID array, and in any case I do seriously hope that you are not keeping important data on a C partition of any description. C drives are for operating systems and any programs (like MS office) that so hopelessly tie themselves into the OS that they are useless without it. C drives should be regarded as completely expendable due to corruption / viruses, etc.

Standalone programs and data should be isolated on at least one other partition / drive. It’s very easy to relocate “My Documents” and similar imposed folders to another drive letter, along with default email storage. etc. This other drive letter (D, E, whatever) should be backed up regularly with great discipline (just like wot I do - not).

To protect against disc failure, I’m going for RAID 1 for data in my next setup, plus regular automated backup offboard to protect against that other greatest system danger - me.

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
New Member
Total Posts:  10
Joined  2005-08-21

Thanks for the quick replies. 

Is there any discussion about Bryce 8 possibly being opengl compliant?

bigh - 16 March 2013 06:27 PM

yes we could do animation - DS to Bryce - I had more but the site is no more .
http://youtu.be/HHW9wv5AD7k

How did this work? You could import animation from DS and put the animation in a Bryce still or animation?
What version of Bryce was this?


Also, still curious about what David Brinnen meant by

There is not special advantage in having a fancy graphics card, although having two minors is very helpful for other reasons.

Thanks

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 10:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Addict
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4621
Joined  2004-07-01
aarrgghhh - 16 March 2013 08:31 PM

Thanks for the quick replies. 

Is there any discussion about Bryce 8 possibly being opengl compliant?

bigh - 16 March 2013 06:27 PM

yes we could do animation - DS to Bryce - I had more but the site is no more .
http://youtu.be/HHW9wv5AD7k

How did this work? You could import animation from DS and put the animation in a Bryce still or animation?
What version of Bryce was this?


Also, still curious about what David Brinnen meant by

There is not special advantage in having a fancy graphics card, although having two minors is very helpful for other reasons.

Thanks

ok it was Bryce 7 and DS 3 - and you used the bridge to bring your model with animation over .
then you set up your scene in Bryce and render it .

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2013 10:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1549
Joined  2007-12-10
aarrgghhh - 16 March 2013 08:31 PM

Also, still curious about what David Brinnen meant by

There is not special advantage in having a fancy graphics card, although having two minors is very helpful for other reasons.

Thanks

What David was referring to is that Bryce only uses the processor to render. Bryce can not and does not access any features within a Graphics card as yet. Therefore getting a fancy all singing all dancing graphics card will not have any effect on speeding Bryce renders up.

 Signature 

I’ve got nothing of my own to promote, no models, no tutorials, no website, nothin’, nada, nill, nowt.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2013 04:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3376
Joined  2004-10-01
_ PJF _ - 16 March 2013 07:33 PM

Hmmm, “C dive” and “they” is an ambiguous combination.  A C drive is a singular item outside of a RAID array, and in any case I do seriously hope that you are not keeping important data on a C partition of any description. C drives are for operating systems and any programs (like MS office) that so hopelessly tie themselves into the OS that they are useless without it. C drives should be regarded as completely expendable due to corruption / viruses, etc.

Standalone programs and data should be isolated on at least one other partition / drive. It’s very easy to relocate “My Documents” and similar imposed folders to another drive letter, along with default email storage. etc. This other drive letter (D, E, whatever) should be backed up regularly with great discipline (just like wot I do - not).

To protect against disc failure, I’m going for RAID 1 for data in my next setup, plus regular automated backup offboard to protect against that other greatest system danger - me.

I’m completely with you in this. All machines sport six virtual drives. C=System, D=graphics and editors, E=programming languages and IP tools, F=data (images and renders), G=bulk storage, H=system backup. For copy and backup (Ghost, Acronis), there are six network drives.

 

 Signature 

**  [ Stuff by David Brinnen and myself**  [ My DAZ 3D Gallery**  [ My Website**  OPC 4565 **

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 5
3