Movies not working if saved at high quality

zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
edited December 1969 in Daz Studio Discussion

Hey there comunity.
I've been working on a little pet-project that required me to upgrade my PC just to work on... but now i'm at the limit of my RAM, i'm having a whole new problem.
a 20-frame a second render at 2100 frames is rendering to... nothing
i set to render, go off, come back, save it as Microsoft 1 (seems to work just fine before) but at 100 quality (configured to 100 too)
saving, saving...
aaaaaand the video is empty... not black-screen that I used to get, but 0 seconds long. it won't even start up on most media players... VLC shows it as 00:00 long :(

since one of these renders took 30 hours to complete (damn you reflections... why you render so slow) I find myself going a little nuts...
suggestions?
what's the best format for rendering movies?
i'm trying again at uncompressed frames... wish me luck.

(also, I plan on linking to all kinds of free tools I make when i'm a little more versed in 3DS)

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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,946
    edited December 1969

    Render to an image sequence and use your video editing software to turn the images into a video - more control, you can redo a few frames that need tweaking without having to rerender the whole thing and you are protected from crashes and compression issues.

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    Render to an image sequence and use your video editing software to turn the images into a video - more control, you can redo a few frames that need tweaking without having to rerender the whole thing and you are protected from crashes and compression issues.

    for 2,100 images? seriously? Although... that's somewhat of a solution... i seriously lack the patience to find out how to flick-book over two thousand frames in Sony Vegas

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,446
    edited December 1969

    Render to an image sequence and use your video editing software to turn the images into a video - more control, you can redo a few frames that need tweaking without having to rerender the whole thing and you are protected from crashes and compression issues.

    for 2,100 images? seriously? Although... that's somewhat of a solution... i seriously lack the patience to find out how to flick-book over two thousand frames in Sony Vegas

    It doesn't have a feature to import an image sequence as a video? That seems strange. But I don't use Vegas so I don't know, but that feature is what I am used to using when I rendered animation. Render to image sequence and let your video editor assemble.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,946
    edited December 1969
  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    Is this really my only option?
    Why isn't DAZ supporting rendering movies now? I used to use this feature all the time, but now...
    Is there something wrong with the new version of DAZ or my computer?

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited March 2013

    To be honest I feel the image sequence is by far the correct and professional way.

    1, You have far better control of the output.
    2. You can render what ever part of the sequence you wish, again, if you like without doing the thing all over
    3. It can then be edited and compressed to what ever output required.
    4. Compositors/editors all import/open image sequences,for this reason.
    5. 2100 images is nothing, about a minute 10s of video, Richard is right, seriously. :)

    Post edited by TapiocaTundra on
  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    But when you need to convert it to three different file-types, four sizes and transfer it to seven people to upload to different websites, all taking a few hours each, it adds another thing to do on top of everything.

    1, it's going to just be an .avi at the end anyway
    2, if there's something wrong, i have to re-render everything anyway because of the nature of the video
    3, i require it as an .avi... then it has to be altered in another program to upload as different filetypes that Sony Vegas doesn't cover
    4, and DAZ is supposed to be able to render to a .avi, saving me the trouble of doing anything else with it
    5, well, sorry i'm not as upscale as you to think that over 2,000 frames is nothing. seeing as how i've got a key-frame every ten frames and spent a damn long time on this

    All that aside, why is it not working? I just want this movie as an .avi.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Your issue is more than likely a RAM issue, Rendering the full thing to Avi is causing you to run out of ram before the file is saved. IMHO.

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited December 1969

    I understand your frustration, I am not sure if your intentions are to upload an uncompressed .avi it will be massive even for about 70secs. Anyway try and do some tests with your renders at different compression and outputs, Just do a few frames of your video as tests, some codecs require certain video aspect ratio ie. 4x3 etc or they do not work.
    If you are interested in outputting animation there is a learning curve unfortunately :) like most stuff we have to learn how to do it, the more experience you achieve by experimenting and finding out about codecs and editing/compositing the more fulfilment you will gain, You will then be able to put all your energy into your creativity.
    I will help best I can but only you can fix it. I have noticed that working with uncompressed avi. puts a lot of strain on my pc and will not play properly, does not mean it is broken, just trying to display too much info, hence compression rates.

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    to Jaderail:
    I recently upgraded my ram to my computer's maximum. Double what it was before... and although I have rendered with these new chips before (much faster) I have been checking this out...
    It's a good idea, but of my PC can make a half-decent render at 4 gig of ram, at eight gig it should be able to handle the same renders... and it rendered the scene before now. I am trying to render again at higher quality :S

    to TapiocaTundra:
    Although I want an uncompressed one to watch myself (no harm in a little pride) I convert it from there into three file-types and a few different sizes for people and websites
    the previous render of this scene was at 1000 X 1100. It was ok, but for the quality...
    I hadn't tried with the uncompressed frames codec, but this is the rez i usually use :S I usually use 'Microsoft Video 1' or whatever it's called... but i forgot to configure it to 100 and although that movie will play no problem, it is a little 'posterised' and I really want to make it smooth after spending so long working on the animation

    It's a shame to find out how little I really know even after making these little movies for three years

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited March 2013

    Seems like you have a good knowledge to me, if you are able chop and change with compression file types. From my own experience I have learned only to render out image sequences now, then I have my work safe, can use it for anything, it has no compression so it is pure, similar to uncompressed avi. then I proceed to edit, it is much easier to adjust colour or anything I want really, if you have PhotoShop you can even work with them there, complete control you see. The point is I do not have to mess around re rendering. If you do wish to compress to to web output etc the only way to go initially is render uncompressed avi or image sequence. Then you have the original with no messing, re compressing already compressed video is a no no. Then do the compression, you will find after a few tests a suitable compression rate for quality vs. file size for what you need. It is exactly your problem that I used to suffer from,do you see now.

    Post edited by TapiocaTundra on
  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    to Jaderail:
    I recently upgraded my ram to my computer's maximum. Double what it was before... and although I have rendered with these new chips before (much faster) I have been checking this out...
    It's a good idea, but of my PC can make a half-decent render at 4 gig of ram, at eight gig it should be able to handle the same renders... and it rendered the scene before now. I am trying to render again at higher quality :S
    I too have an 8Gb PC and have maxed out with what I thought would be simple little Ani at higher settings. Take this into consideration, all textures used are loaded into RAM then TDLmake converts those into 3Delight compatible files then the Render engine needs RAM to calculate all the light bounces and Shadows. Then that Frame is saved to Ram and the next Set of calculations start then that Frame saved to ram. Render Size, Texture sizes all take RAM and then the frames need written out to the Avi codec and Streamed to the Hard drive. Uncompressed Hi Quality Rendered Frames and the Calculations needed for Lighting Shadows and the rest all add up very fast. I Never use anything except Render to Frames now. As said before they are easy to work with, most Editors can read the full set at one go to convert to a Movie format, and BEST of all if ANYTHING needs fixed at frames 29 - 50 I only need to render those again instead of the full animation.

    I'm only trying to help. Not say this or that way is any better.

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    I know that my PC can handle it because i've been making these animations with 4 gig of ram.. i had to wait longer, but it worked...
    since I upgraded, its just rendered faster. it saved fine the first time, but I hadn't set the quality high enough (rendering in video 1, not uncompressed)
    because all my animations have progressive elements, it's rare i'll need to change something for specific frames...

    I understand the pros for using the image frames, but I am not really a fan of having this thrust on me without my consent...
    I'm a git for learning new things. I love it. But I instinctively loose my temper when something changes and the method I like and am used to suddenly stops working...
    I will be using the frames method because I've no other choice. I made the movies before, it was easy, I didn't have to mess around in any other program till I wanted to convert it. I didn't have to worry about DAZ suddenly saving huge files with zero use to me. Now, no matter what codec I use, the movie does not seem to save properly. my RAM doesn't even top out. my virtual memory goes up to 70% and i get no error messages.
    I want to know why!
    Why has DAZ stopped rendering in movie format? What is wrong? is it my computer or the program?
    If it's my computer, what has changed since the first render? Because other than my not checking the quality, it was fine.
    I am using the same settings other than the video quality and the file won't play on anything

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'm sorry but I have no Idea what could cause Issues by just adding Ram to your PC. And the Save as Movie option in DS has always been Buggy to me. That's why I use the Frames method, it was even Buggy in DS3 and still the same in DS4.

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited March 2013

    If you have done some testing now and none of the video outputs work something is definitely up! I presume that you have double checked the scene including render settings for anything suspicious, and that all is satisfactory, It would be driving me a bit bananas to by now.

    edit: set up a quick test with a simple scene,see if it works then.

    Post edited by TapiocaTundra on
  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    Hey Tundra
    Yeah, i've been rendering 20 frames to test the other codecs... none have worked (le cry)
    I'm going to make another scene to try once the current image-sequence is completed... probably about 30 hours... fun... then try making it into a movie that way... the fun of trying to keep the quality the same too. urgh... not in the mood for this.

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited December 1969

    Look in the folder where you have sent the images, you will see them popping up and will be able to open and check on them, complete control :) Keep us posted, people learn a great deal from this stuff, good luck.

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    everyone keeps saying how much more control I apparently have... I guess i'm the only one here who prefers to re-render if something is wrong. if there's an issue, i have to usually re-render the whole thing to keep the edit contiguous.
    I can see what frame i'm on on DAZ too. calculating it frame by frame, it will take 31.33333333333333333 hours...

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited December 1969

    But do the images look ok.:) is it working?

  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,676
    edited December 1969

    zeddedd even when you "rendered" to uncompressed avi, Daz studio under application data daz studio roaming render somewhere was sticking 2000+ png imaves in a temp folder.
    it then takes the extra step to compile an avi and scrubs out those temp files.
    all programs render to image file
    then compile an avi
    it is an extra step that actually diminishes the quality of your finished render
    and it is not very hard, takes up less room on your drive
    to renderimage sequences to a temp folder
    drag the first one into virtualdub (free easy opensource editor)
    the rest follow, set framerate under video save as avi
    just because you have always done something one way
    does not make it better
    learning better ways to do things
    improves your skill
    and makes you more proffesional
    the pros use image sequences

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    well... now i have a heap of image-sequences and or some reason when I put them into sony, half go upside-down, some just go black and others change size...
    A learning curve is one thing... but something with right-angles isn't fair when it was working before.

    Since i have the images, i'll be trying out this 'vurtualdub' as an alternative...
    but for something that is apparently meant to be easier and just as fast, this has taken nearly two weeks longer than the first time it rendered.

    "just because you have always done something one way does not make it better"
    I know, but i am doing it that way for a reason. because I know it and am not going to start experimenting on something untill i have more time. since now i'm so behind on this piece's deadline, i'm not going to get paid for it, i don't think being more professional is much of a consolation prize!

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    Look in the folder where you have sent the images, you will see them popping up and will be able to open and check on them, complete control :) Keep us posted, people learn a great deal from this stuff, good luck.

    Yeah, cheers. the images look ok. But there's something wrong with what i'm doing in sony because the movie-file has blanks, the image goes randomly upside-down and then looses quality...
    so far, i'm rating this whole experience under "reasons to get a large hammer and reduce my computer to a fetching circuit-board rug!"

    All I wanted was 'oh, try refreshing this' or a 'did this change in your settings? there's been complaints about that'
    not 'you're doing it wrong, do this instead because you're unprofessional using the built-in features'
    all this has done is given me 3,303 image-files, a 4 gig useless video and the feeling that i'm being compared to slime.

  • TjebTjeb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    So..., now you do the 'frame' method like everyone, hope you render in .png to save filesize and use Virtualdub (really great program) for the final movie? BTW, did you check your disk space lately? All the .avi files consume a large amount of disk space that could be an indicator for the problem you mentioned in your first post.
    I have another thing for you to consider: a scene that takes almost two minutes? Why don't you chop your movie into several scenes, every scene using a different cameraview, making it much more pleasant to watch, and also making your workflow more clear and you can use the PC in between scenes for other purposes instead of having to wait all day. And why would you want to send .avi files over the Net anyway? Mpeg is just invented for that.

  • TapiocaTundraTapiocaTundra Posts: 268
    edited December 1969

    Hi again zededd2000
    Dont know anything about the sony prog. now you lost me :) I used Blender to composite my last little vid it has a great video editor/sequencer.
    Did you manage to get any other test avi renders out with Daz ?

  • zededd2000zededd2000 Posts: 70
    edited December 1969

    tjeb said:
    So..., now you do the 'frame' method like everyone, hope you render in .png to save filesize and use Virtualdub (really great program) for the final movie? BTW, did you check your disk space lately? All the .avi files consume a large amount of disk space that could be an indicator for the problem you mentioned in your first post.
    I have another thing for you to consider: a scene that takes almost two minutes? Why don't you chop your movie into several scenes, every scene using a different cameraview, making it much more pleasant to watch, and also making your workflow more clear and you can use the PC in between scenes for other purposes instead of having to wait all day. And why would you want to send .avi files over the Net anyway? Mpeg is just invented for that.

    Well. the whole thing's useless now. I won't get paid for it. But I'm still working on the darned thing!

    I would do the frame method if that was working... but so far, little success... i need to get virtualdub installed.
    I render to external hard-drives. going to try rendering to the internal ones, see how well that does.

    Sadly... this IS the split version haha the whole thing is about... well... would have been about ten minutes long.
    The nature of the scene, it's the same from different angles, but it needs to be all the angles. I'll cut between them in one version, but they are released separate too.

    I don't send the .avi's around much. I use .AVI for the offline use. .flv for a website. .mpg for emails. i use a complicated one i keep forgetting the extension for to send to a mobile device and a few other custom jobbies...

    Hi again zededd2000
    Dont know anything about the sony prog. now you lost me :) I used Blender to composite my last little vid it has a great video editor/sequencer.
    Did you manage to get any other test avi renders out with Daz ?

    Yeah... darned thing lost me too haha. can't seem to get the sucker to even show me the problem :S

    I've got very little experience in blender... lill complicated when I last used it (let's say, it wasn't open-source then...)

    oh, the tests seem to work just fine... there's something going wrong in the middle over the long-run... might be because i've used the computer in-render... i blame Vista. that usually is the answer XD

    so far... still no luck. i've not been able to get a single copy of this damned animation rendered and to movie... the best I can do is apparently load the sucker in an image-viewer and go for a high-speed slide-show...

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    VeeDub should manage to get all your images into one movie file for you. I use it myself.

  • virtual poetryvirtual poetry Posts: 2
    edited December 1969

    Render to an image sequence and use your video editing software to turn the images into a video - more control, you can redo a few frames that need tweaking without having to rerender the whole thing and you are protected from crashes and compression issues.

    for 2,100 images? seriously? Although... that's somewhat of a solution... i seriously lack the patience to find out how to flick-book over two thousand frames in Sony Vegas

    I totally agree with you that is a bad solution and one time I accidentally did this and it completely totally froze my high tech computer

  • virtual poetryvirtual poetry Posts: 2
    edited December 1969

    well... now i have a heap of image-sequences and or some reason when I put them into sony, half go upside-down, some just go black and others change size...
    A learning curve is one thing... but something with right-angles isn't fair when it was working before.

    Since i have the images, i'll be trying out this 'vurtualdub' as an alternative...
    but for something that is apparently meant to be easier and just as fast, this has taken nearly two weeks longer than the first time it rendered.

    "just because you have always done something one way does not make it better"
    I know, but i am doing it that way for a reason. because I know it and am not going to start experimenting on something untill i have more time. since now i'm so behind on this piece's deadline, i'm not going to get paid for it, i don't think being more professional is much of a consolation prize!

    yeah-- I hear you. It doesn't really work so just do it like this :) HAHA

  • HabitualGypsyHabitualGypsy Posts: 66
    edited December 1969

    FWIW, I render to an Image Sequence when animating in DS 4.5 and use Vegas (Movie Studio HD 11.0) for editing . It actually works great for me.

    Here's the procedure I follow:

    1. Render in D|S to an Image Sequence (I believe you've done this already). BTW, I always export in .png format - I'll address that later.

    2. In Vegas, select Import Media from the Project menu.

    3. When the Import Media dialog comes up, select Image Sequence at the Files of Type option.

    4. Select the first image in the sequence (or the one you'd like your clip to start with).

    5. Make sure the Open still image sequence box is checked. Also, verify that the number of frames is accurate to the right of this. If not, or you want to create a clip with only part of the sequence, manually adjust as necessary.

    6. Next it will give you a Property dialog. I recommend leaving these all on default setting except for Tape name. Naturally, you should call it whatever makes the most sense to you.

    7. Your new clip should now appear in your Project Media pane. You can now drag it down onto your timeline and edit as you would any other clip.

    I know it may seem like a bunch of extra steps but that's mostly because I've broken it down so much. Once you've done it once or twice you'll see that it's really only one extra step in the transfer process that will probably take no more than 20 seconds per clip.

    As others have pointed out (several times in several ways), there are many advantages to importing Image Sequences as opposed to D|S created .avi files. But I'll point out two that I find helpful when using Vegas (they probably apply to other NLE's as well):

    1. I don't have to deal with .avi's. Personally, I don't care for that specific container/format. By importing as an Image Sequence, I can just deal with whatever format (.mp4 in my case) I prefer. This avoids dealing with the less than intuitive codecs included with D|S.

    2. Alpha channels are preserved (assuming you don't export as .jpg or .bmp). I use .png because, IMO, it has the best combo of ease of editing and control of transparency; but you could use .tif if you prefer. Alpha Channels may not be a big deal to you now but having the optional control is always a good thing. Chances are you'll do something down the road where being able to edit your video in layers will be all but necessary,

    BTW, this process should work (with little to no variation) in pretty much any version of Vegas - the person I learned this procedure from was using an old version of Vegas Pro (6 or 7?).

    Also, not to rub salt in a wound, but upgrading from Vista to Windows 7 will make your life MUCH easier. Of course, it's not necessary but then you don't seem to be happy with Vista, so...

    Anyway, I hope that helps.

    -Damon

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 2,408
    edited December 1969

    habgyp said:
    FWIW, I render to an Image Sequence when animating in DS 4.5 and use Vegas (Movie Studio HD 11.0) for editing . It actually works great for me.

    ...

    Just a quick question, since you mention Sony Vegas Movie studio. How many audio channels can you set up in that application?

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