WIP THREAD FOR NEW USERS CONTEST, March 2013.

TotteTotte Posts: 6,931

Totte said:
New User's Contest - March 2013

Sponsored by DAZ 3D & IgnisSerpentus


Are you new to the 3D World? Are you at the beginning stages of learning 3D rendering? Have you been around for a little bit but feel you could benefit from some feedback or instruction? Have you been around awhile and would like to help other members start their creative journey? Well then come and join the fun as we host our newest contest...

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"Holding Hands"

We all need a hand from time to time, to help, to lend to hold. This month’s contest is about hands, hands that hold things or hold onto things.

Intent: To create a scene where the holding hand is the important part, posing, shaping and lighting, but also put the hand into a context of the image.

This months sponsor is IgnisSerpentus her store is here http://www.daz3d.com/ignisserpentus

I will be checking in on the WIP THREAD as will the rest of the Community Volunteers to try and help with anything you all may need.

For a list of the current contest rules, please see this thread: Contest Rules

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When working on your submissions, if you would like to get feedback as you work or before posting your final image, please post your image to the WIP THREAD . People will be popping in to the WIP THREAD to give you some critique and advice on your entry and help along the way. Please keep all comments on entries etc to the WIP THREAD as well because comments or requests for help/feedback/advice will be removed from the contest thread and merged into the WIP THREAD . This thread is only for posting final contest submissions.

For those veterans of the forums that would like to help, because this contest is designed for the beginner to learn from, we will be randomly selecting posts offering helpful tips and/or critiques to receive a special voucher as well so whether you are a seasoned artist or an aspiring one, there is fun for everyone!


Closing Date: March 31th 2013

Post edited by frank0314 on
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Comments

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    I'll hold your hand Totte....metaphorically speaking. :)

    Nice Theme, posing hands can be tricky...a little eaier with Genesis compared to the Gen 4 figures but still fiddly. When it matters I spend hours getting the hand pose right, looking at real photos, looking in the mirror (can't spend long doing that cause it scares me). A starting hand pose can help but there is nothing like zooming in on the hand and spending the time moving each joint manually.

  • sithkittensithkitten Posts: 140
    edited December 1969

    Hmm. My initial thought on this was "good challenge, but not likely I'll do it," because I came up totally blank on things to do with hands. But then I remembered music, and how it bugs the heck out of me when artists get musicians' hands wrong. (I play flute. Tons of people have less than no clue how a flute gets held.) So... Look out, I feel a musically oriented image coming on.

  • StormlyghtStormlyght Posts: 141
    edited March 2013

    After reading @sithkitten's post, I thought about some of the artwork I've seen recently where figures are posed incorrectly holding the reins of a horse. I've noticed this especially in the representations of English style riding. Another area I've noticed challenges in posing is the use of a bow and arrow and proper positioning of hands especially when an arrow is knocked. I think I'll have a go at these :)

    Post edited by Stormlyght on
  • Miss BMiss B Posts: 3,069
    edited December 1969

    Nice theme Totte! Don't know if you chose it, or you all got together and polled to see which theme to do this month, but this should turn out to be a very interesting challenge. A couple of good render ideas already, and I'm sure there will be even more.

    I look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with. ;-)

  • sithkittensithkitten Posts: 140
    edited December 1969

    Those things bug me too, stormlyght. I can get the hands right, 'cause I know how to ride and shoot a bow, but getting the dratted reins right makes me swear. Haven't managed it yet. And I haven't done much with bows yet, although I will, because I love archery. So if you discover a way to do reins and bowstrings that's easier than cussing at a D-former, let me know, please? :cheese:

  • bluemoonbluemoon Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Starting to look OK, but not sure of the left hand.

    Still a lot of work to do on the surfaces. Have left the hammer a fraction above the sword as I want it to look like it has just been hit with sparks flying off. Might have to figure out how to do that in post.

    smithy01.jpg
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  • TotteTotte Posts: 6,931
    edited December 1969

    bluemoon said:
    Starting to look OK, but not sure of the left hand.

    Still a lot of work to do on the surfaces. Have left the hammer a fraction above the sword as I want it to look like it has just been hit with sparks flying off. Might have to figure out how to do that in post.

    Coming along great, but try to "add weight", which basically mean the hammer is heavy, and the left hand is forced down by gravity and its own weight, and at the same time holding the blade still.

    There are some sparks available in the store (I think Jepe has some special effects like that), or you can crate a small sphere using basic shapes, and use the area light as a shader and then use the built in Create->Create Instances to add multi copies of it. Or you can use postwork which probably is the easiest way. Keep up the good work!

  • bluemoonbluemoon Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Totte! The only way I can think of to add weight is to flex some muscles. Honestly it is something I have never considered before and is probably the reason that even though I am happy with some of the renders I do, they don't seem quite right as though something is missing.

  • BlumBlumShubBlumBlumShub Posts: 1,077
    edited December 1969

    bluemoon said:
    Starting to look OK, but not sure of the left hand.

    Still a lot of work to do on the surfaces. Have left the hammer a fraction above the sword as I want it to look like it has just been hit with sparks flying off. Might have to figure out how to do that in post.


    Posing hands is a serious challenge, and there are a couple of points in this image that I would like to advise on. Not because I'm an expert in DS or Poser, but because they make sense to me as a viewer.

    First: The blacksmith seems to be pulling away from the hammer. It would look more natural if he were leaning into it a little. From the point of view of weight and gravity you'd basically be softening the blow as it is now, and yet the rest of the pose indicates that he's hitting hard.

    Second: That blade is hot, he's just brought it out of the coals. But it looks like he's putting his thumb on it. Owie!

    Lovely looking image so far though, I'm really getting the feeling from the picture of heat, hard work and someone who is taking a pride in his craft.

  • SGCBearcubSGCBearcub Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Not quite what I was going for - the hands reaching from behind are too pink. Not sure about the lighting on her hair either.

    Blackness.jpg
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  • TotteTotte Posts: 6,931
    edited December 1969

    Not quite what I was going for - the hands reaching from behind are too pink. Not sure about the lighting on her hair either.

    You might need to tweak the diffuse channel for the surface shader for the hand, turn it a little browner, just a little, and for the light, remember that it is always good to have a strong light from behind, it fills out the contours.

  • SGCBearcubSGCBearcub Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Totte said:
    Not quite what I was going for - the hands reaching from behind are too pink. Not sure about the lighting on her hair either.

    You might need to tweak the diffuse channel for the surface shader for the hand, turn it a little browner, just a little, and for the light, remember that it is always good to have a strong light from behind, it fills out the contours.

    Thank-you:) I'll try that.

  • SGCBearcubSGCBearcub Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Totte said:
    Not quite what I was going for - the hands reaching from behind are too pink. Not sure about the lighting on her hair either.

    You might need to tweak the diffuse channel for the surface shader for the hand, turn it a little browner, just a little, and for the light, remember that it is always good to have a strong light from behind, it fills out the contours.

    Okay, tweaked the diffuse and tried a fill light. I like it much better. She doesn't look so flat anymore. Thanks!

    Blackness2.jpg
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  • TotteTotte Posts: 6,931
    edited December 1969

    That's really starting to look good!

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited March 2013

    Looking good so far, more comments from me on the images posted so far latter but first a brief interruption while I share my thoughts on posing hands.

    They really can make or break an image but it does depend if they are a crucial part of the image.

    Example: (I bet some of you are getting sick of seeing this image) In this image below I spent a good deal of time on just one hand, obvious as it is the only one there. ;) Anyway in Image 1 you can see how I posed the hand, took me days to get it to that stage never getting it to look right, well fitting the image really. Yes it is ok as that is how some hold a pipe as shown in a google search for reference images but it didn’t look right. Then a friend popped around one day and said he had vivid memories of his Grandfather and how he held his pipe. So we went searching through those images until we found one that resembled how his Granddad held his pipe. I then used that image as a reference. This didn’t mean it took a few minutes to pose on the contrary I spent a whole day just on the hand. Once I got the hand right the image started to come together which drove me on to the end product, image 2.

    Can you see how the last image is so much better that the first, just with the hand I mean. Image 2 has had some much more work, more than the hand, put in to it than image 1. :)

    Handpose2.jpg
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    Handpose1.jpg
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    Post edited by Szark on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    Bluemoon. Great image starting there again I feel.
    I agree with what has been said already. Sorry for butchering your image but this is how I see it.
    Point 1: I don’t see power in that grip or should I say the angle of the hammer. I would see how it looks as I crudely drew in red. Then move the hand only up so the hammer is striking the metal again. The force of the blow will force the hand up more; the rest of the arm for me looks good.

    Point 2: Try moving the grip in more, even if the fingers poke through the handle. If you have Genesis Muscle Morphs then try turning on Flexion and try getting some stress lines in the back of his hand.

    Point 3: Yes bend his chest a abdomen a little, you will have to move the whole body back a little to compensate so he lines up with his victim..I mean anvil.

    Hope that helps. ;)

    smithy01_copy.jpg
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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    SGCBearcub Love the hand as wrinkled and now the lighting, yeah nice start but I feel the hands get lost and merges too much with the body. This would be ok if she had a really weird expression making you wonder why, and then you see the hand. If that is the case then I feel her head/eyes should be in one of the composition focal points.
    What is your main subject, her face or her hand?

    Can I suggest try using some composition guidelines (don’t like calling them rules as they can be broken if you know how).

    Choice one is to read up on Composition or a second choice is to try out Jaderail’s new toy Golden Rules of Composition Camera Prop for DS4.5.
    If the hand is the focal point then try setting the Camera to 35mm this will bring the hand really forward and smack you around the face when you see the image. :) Unless you want it to be subtle then I would go for the expression route. But moving the head/hand to a focal point will work so much better IMHO. But like I say with everyone it is your image to do with, you’re the one that has to be happy with it these are just my opinions. I will take no offence if you do your own thing as I am still new and learning. :)

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    Cho first link giving a 403 error for me IE9. Exactly reference images are a great help.

    Yes it all depends if the hammer is coming down, hit or on it's way back up.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,414
    edited March 2013

    works for me in FF. I was hoping to find some better ones. Number 2 husband was a welder, but for fun he did handmade wrought iron, so I am quite used to seeing him working.

    I might add that he also had very few work shirts with out burn marks from the sparks. THey could also manage to get past his overalls and boots and perforate his socks. Airtex socks lol

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • TotteTotte Posts: 6,931
    edited March 2013

    chohole said:
    works for me in FF. I was hoping to find some better ones. Number 2 husband was a wekder, but for fun he did handmade wrought iron, so I am quite used to seeing him working.

    I might add that he also had very few work shirts with out burn marks from the sparks. THey could also manage to get past his overalls and boots and perforate his socks. Airtex socks lol

    Works for me too (Safari/OS X), but the link is rather long, made a tiny URL of it http://tinyurl.com/aonzh92

    Post edited by Totte on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    Weird works now, you and your fancy browsers. :) :P

  • bluemoonbluemoon Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thank you everyone for your input.
    @BlumBlumShub - I did consider using gloves but thought they would hide to much of the pose. I need to rethink that one.
    @Szark - Reading your post and looking at Choholes pictures I noticed my biggest mistake - The anvil is to high. I did look at a few reference photos but was only looking at the hands. I think I have the muscle morphs and will have a look at them.
    @Chohole - Thanks for the image links, looking at them I noticed that the anvil is below waist height and in my image it's almost at the bottom of the chest. In my youth I spent some time working in Foundries and Know what you mean about those sparks getting in everywhere.

  • SGCBearcubSGCBearcub Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Szark, thank you so much for the constructive concritism. Always welcome.

    I definately was going for the hand as focal point. I'm going to try the 35mm camera and see what happens.

    By composition, do you mean why so much negative space to the right? I'm trying to get the picture so that people see the hand first, then look for the owner and can't see him. Sort of a creep factor if I can pull it off. Is it too much you think?

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 8,765
    edited December 1969

    No the black space I wrongly or rightly assumed was reserved for a prop. If you look at the first link and read all 5 pages you will soon understand what I mean. The most simple and common rule is the rule of thrids. so divide your image in to nine, 3 down and 3 acroos, where the lines meet there will be 4 points, these are the main focal points that can draw the eye in to your main subject.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    A page or two back somebody mentioned Archery poses that looked wrong. And I can say that this is the BEST I can do with a Gen4 (V4) figure. Was not happy the Gen4's had so few adjustments for real looking poses with the hands.

    Archer.png
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  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2013

    Jaderail said:
    A page or two back somebody mentioned Archery poses that looked wrong. And I can say that this is the BEST I can do with a Gen4 (V4) figure. Was not happy the Gen4's had so few adjustments for real looking poses with the hands.

    Looks great except for one little thing. The arrow is on the wrong side of the bow. You've got it on the thumb side (Japanese style), not along the carpal side (Western style).

    Post edited by Tramp Graphics on
  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    LOL! I was taught this style as a boy. I never got great but I was okay.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 1,730
    edited December 1969

    Jaderail said:
    LOL! I was taught this style as a boy. I never got great but I was okay.
    Yeah, It's supposed to rest along the back of the hand. If you look at any compound or recurve bow with an "arrow rest" built into it, the arrow rest always sits on the "finger" side of the bow, not the Thumb side. Thus, for a right handed bow (held in the left hand) the arrow rest is on the left side of the bow. On a left handed bow (held in the right hand), the arrow rest is on the right side of the bow. When loading the bow, the bow is held horizontally with the hand facing palm down, and the arrow is placed on top and nocked before rotating the hand back to vertical to draw.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Jaderail said:
    LOL! I was taught this style as a boy. I never got great but I was okay.
    Yeah, It's supposed to rest along the back of the hand. If you look at any compound or recurve bow with an "arrow rest" built into it, the arrow rest always sits on the "finger" side of the bow, not the Thumb side. Thus, for a right handed bow (held in the left hand) the arrow rest is on the left side of the bow. On a left handed bow (held in the right hand), the arrow rest is on the right side of the bow. When loading the bow, the bow is held horizontally with the hand facing palm down, and the arrow is placed on top and nocked before rotating the hand back to vertical to draw.
    I guess my Dad was clueless, and most of the time I used bundle type survivalist quick made bows with reed arrows and fire hardened hard wood tips. Real primitive stuff. Don't think I ever used a real one more than twice in my life.I'll try a different pose now that I know better.

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