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Pros and Cons of Carrara DOF Vs. Postworked DOF
Posted: 09 February 2013 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Fenric - 08 February 2013 10:04 PM

The post-render filters are called from a single entry point.  It would be up to the post-renderer to do the actual threading, unfortunately.

Still, for the bundled post render effects it would be nice for Daz to make them threaded. And the non-photorealistic renderer, for that matter.

Fenric - 08 February 2013 10:04 PM

I’ve been looking into this as part of the HDR export attempt.  I am getting VERY annoyed at certain internal assumptions that go on around the renderer - the only way I can get any 32-bit data out of the renderer (short of writing my own mad ) is a post-renderer - and only SOME information is passed as 32-bit dat

Ouch!

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Posted: 09 February 2013 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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evilproducer - 09 February 2013 05:56 AM
RoguePilot - 09 February 2013 02:55 AM

One more tip.

For Carrara dynamic hair, the Volume Primitive layer will give a perfect mask in the multiplication part. (the black on white bit)
It’s actually how the hair effect is added anyway and you can use it for your own purposes.


So, the volume primitive layer shows the dynamic hair?

Yes.

I’m not 100% sure but I think each volumetric effect gets its own individual set of layers too. I’ve only used multiple layered volumetric effects a couple of times so I could be mistaken on some effects.

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Posted: 09 February 2013 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Very cool thread!

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Posted: 09 February 2013 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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evilproducer - 08 February 2013 04:10 PM

Besides the time involved with Carrara internally applying the DOF, another big con for Carrara’s DOF is that sometimes the preview’s DOF doesn’t match the finished output, which means if you’re unhappy with it, could be stuck re-rendering your image..

You didn’t mention the part about the internal Carrara DOF effect looking more like someone smeared Vaseline on the lens than a lens depth of focus effect…  smile

Find a real photograph with lots of DOF, and try to reproduce it in Carrara using the internal effect. I think you’ll be very disappointed.

Now if you have a very dark scene, where the Vaseline DOF isn’t really that noticeable, or you’re just doing a render for your own enjoyment, then I suppose whatever floats your boat is fine. But if you’re showing your renders to someone, don’t be surprised if they say “why did you smear Vaseline on the lens?”  smile

Personally, I find no pros and all cons to the internal effect. For me at least, postwork is the answer. And if you’re fairly proficient with your postworking apps, there are a myriad ways to postwork a nice DOF in spite of the fact that the depth pass might not respect all the elements.

Don’t forget the use of compositing in layers, using the Object Index pass in Carrara, using simple gradient layers for DOF, and a bunch of other stuff.

 

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Posted: 09 February 2013 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 09 February 2013 06:18 PM
evilproducer - 08 February 2013 04:10 PM

Besides the time involved with Carrara internally applying the DOF, another big con for Carrara’s DOF is that sometimes the preview’s DOF doesn’t match the finished output, which means if you’re unhappy with it, could be stuck re-rendering your image..

You didn’t mention the part about the internal Carrara DOF effect looking more like someone smeared Vaseline on the lens than a lens depth of focus effect…  smile

Find a real photograph with lots of DOF, and try to reproduce it in Carrara using the internal effect. I think you’ll be very disappointed.

Now if you have a very dark scene, where the Vaseline DOF isn’t really that noticeable, or you’re just doing a render for your own enjoyment, then I suppose whatever floats your boat is fine. But if you’re showing your renders to someone, don’t be surprised if they say “why did you smear Vaseline on the lens?”  smile

Personally, I find no pros and all cons to the internal effect. For me at least, postwork is the answer. And if you’re fairly proficient with your postworking apps, there are a myriad ways to postwork a nice DOF in spite of the fact that the depth pass might not respect all the elements.

Don’t forget the use of compositing in layers, using the Object Index pass in Carrara, using simple gradient layers for DOF, and a bunch of other stuff.

 

This is good to know stuff. I’m NOT proficient with post.
I’ve drawn a fairly good likeness of folks using layers and a paint brush, I like experimenting with what the various filters do, but that software is still way over my head. Soaking in this stuff like a sponge. The hard part is to totally switch gears from the way I have been doing it.
However, If I’m going to switch gears - now would be the absolute best time to start. Or should I say, just in the nick of time? smile

Thanks for all of this incredible information to soak in.

I think I’m ready for more if you have any more tricks up your sleeves, folks! cool hmm

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Posted: 10 February 2013 12:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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The raytraced DOF is accurate and looks fine but it takes ages for anything but a simple scene. It’s sometimes worth it though.

For photoshop, check out this filter. There’s some good general info too.

http://www.dofpro.com/overview.htm

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Posted: 10 February 2013 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Thanks RP!

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Posted: 10 February 2013 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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RoguePilot - 10 February 2013 12:52 AM

The raytraced DOF is accurate and looks fine but it takes ages for anything but a simple scene. It’s sometimes worth it though.

For photoshop, check out this filter. There’s some good general info too.

http://www.dofpro.com/overview.htm

Wow. I’m kinda impressed that someone here was familiar with that.

Not sure I’d agree about the raytraced DOF in Carrara being worth the incredible time hit you take, though.

Personally, I think that if anyone is even semi-serious about a DOF effect you need to look at dedicated apps like DOF Pro and use them in post. It will make your renders so much more interesting if you can take advantage of the wide variety of effects that real cameras can generate.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 04:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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BTW, if anyone isn’t familiar with what I call the Vaseline effect, here’s a render from many years ago when I was just investigating the Carrara DOF. Speaks for itself.

And speaking of postwork, there is an entire UNIVERSE of stuff to know and learn about compositing and postwork. Guys spend entire careers learning and getting skilled in it. And IMO, it is by far the most interesting and fun part of 3D and visual effects in general.

I’ve often suggested people read up on compositing and post work, but it’s a subject that rarely, if ever, gets much serious discussion here.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 10 February 2013 03:25 AM

Personally, I think that if anyone is even semi-serious about a DOF effect you need to look at dedicated apps like DOF Pro and use them in post. It will make your renders so much more interesting if you can take advantage of the wide variety of effects that real cameras can generate.

So Joe is in the “DOF should be post-work only camp.” (Is that fair Joe? Did I miss anything?)

Regardless of opinion about Carrara’s DOF quality, is there any render software up to the task of computing DOF at render time?

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Posted: 10 February 2013 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Garstor - 10 February 2013 07:20 AM
JoeMamma2000 - 10 February 2013 03:25 AM

Personally, I think that if anyone is even semi-serious about a DOF effect you need to look at dedicated apps like DOF Pro and use them in post. It will make your renders so much more interesting if you can take advantage of the wide variety of effects that real cameras can generate.

So Joe is in the “DOF should be post-work only camp.” (Is that fair Joe? Did I miss anything?)

Regardless of opinion about Carrara’s DOF quality, is there any render software up to the task of computing DOF at render time?

Allegedly Arnold is faster, but it’s not available to the public, and LW 11.5 has seen some DOF improvements, but they only mention in render preview as far as I can find. You’re probably better off with planning and postwork.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Man… DOF Pro currently doesn’t support 64 bit PS.
Besides. When I’m shooting an animation, I only use subtle DOF in Carrara. I don’t see ExtruD around the forums anymore, which is a blessing and a bummer. Bummer cause he was making me some really cool particle fire formy torches that also emitted light and smoke. Plus he was an great active participant here. But a blessing because it must mean that the guy he was getting in with must be keeping him busy making money in the field. Good on you ExtruD.
ExtruD was always coaching me on the concept that many people give up far too quickly on Carrara’s onboard tools out of a lack of patience and understanding - getting them botched results. Same goes with GI. Check out Cripeman’s Global Illumination tutorial.
Subtle is the way. If you hit render and you computer pukes its guts, time to try another approach? Or just better settings?
People can be too fast to blame this incredibly power piece of software that we already own - out of giving up too quickly, I think.

I’m certainly not saying that Post work is wrong - that’s not my message at all! Carrara provides some pretty great tools for that, thanks to the fine developers here, at Daz3d! Well, and their predecessors.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Dartanbeck - 10 February 2013 12:35 PM

Man… DOF Pro currently doesn’t support 64 bit PS.

Dang! I didn’t notice that…I was seriously considering buying it.

Dartanbeck - 10 February 2013 12:35 PM

I’m certainly not saying that Post work is wrong - that’s not my message at all! Carrara provides some pretty great tools for that, thanks to the fine developers here, at Daz3d! Well, and their predecessors.

I agree; that’s far too limiting. Right tool for the right job at the right time.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 12:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 10 February 2013 11:24 AM

Allegedly Arnold is faster, but it’s not available to the public, and LW 11.5 has seen some DOF improvements, but they only mention in render preview as far as I can find. You’re probably better off with planning and postwork.

I haven’t grabbed 11.5 yet. But the VPR (render preview) is pretty damn nifty. It is surprisingly fast and helps a lot when laying out a scene.

I really should try out DOF in both Carrara and LightWave some time…just to see/learn.

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Posted: 10 February 2013 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Dartanbeck - 10 February 2013 12:35 PM

Man… DOF Pro currently doesn’t support 64 bit PS.
Besides. When I’m shooting an animation, I only use subtle DOF in Carrara. I don’t see ExtruD around the forums anymore, which is a blessing and a bummer. Bummer cause he was making me some really cool particle fire formy torches that also emitted light and smoke. Plus he was an great active participant here. But a blessing because it must mean that the guy he was getting in with must be keeping him busy making money in the field. Good on you ExtruD.
ExtruD was always coaching me on the concept that many people give up far too quickly on Carrara’s onboard tools out of a lack of patience and understanding - getting them botched results. Same goes with GI. Check out Cripeman’s Global Illumination tutorial.
Subtle is the way. If you hit render and you computer pukes its guts, time to try another approach? Or just better settings?
People can be too fast to blame this incredibly power piece of software that we already own - out of giving up too quickly, I think.

I’m certainly not saying that Post work is wrong - that’s not my message at all! Carrara provides some pretty great tools for that, thanks to the fine developers here, at Daz3d! Well, and their predecessors.

ExtruD was a total idiot when he posted as mhartmann… he was generally anti-content and compared those of us who liked using content to pornographers. He had posts deleted at that point in time until he settled down a little. I think he may have been banned as well and came back a second time using another variation of his name, got banned again and then came back as ExtruD. But I also didn’t appreciate his negativity… I think many of his posts could’ve and maybe turned off potential purchasers of the software as he was one of the more vocal doom and gloomers. I know I wouldn’t have bought Carrara if had seen his posts before any others. He didn’t get the fact that Carrara has to sell in the store if it’s going to continue being supported by DAZ. He never got what’s involved money wise in support and development. I’m sorry, but I hope he never comes back.

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