Commerical Products forum gone?

RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 5,540
edited February 2013 in The Commons

Hi,

I just noticed that the "Commercial Products" forum is gone and has been replaced with "DAZ PA Commercial Products". What happened to all the posts? I tried looking for Caths (Mec4D) posts for her products and don't see them in the search. Her newest one for her 15 years in the biz is gone?

Post edited by DAZ_Brian on
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Comments

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 5,540
    edited December 1969

    WOW.... very sad news. OK, thanks Matty!

  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,609
    edited December 1969

    yes I was just grabbing you the link.
    sad indeed but understandable, Daz is a business after all
    their sales are the reason for this forum's existence.

    just wondering, can OTHERS, not the vendor, mention outsude products and links still ANYWHERE in the forum?
    or is this going to be cracked down on too?
    and
    can non-Daz published artists still post works and renders stating it uses something they made or show works in progress with a sigline for their store?

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 5,540
    edited December 1969

    It will be interesting to see if how this plays out. If DAZ just shot themselves in the foot or if this is indeed a good move. One of the things that makes DAZ good was that the forums were all inclusive and now.... not sure how that makes ME feel as a member feeling like this is a private club to the point where other vendors are blocked. Oh well. Time will tell. I love Genesis so DAZ has me by the kahones there.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,912
    edited February 2013


    can non-Daz published artists still post works and renders stating it uses something they made or show works in progress with a sigline for their store?

    About that I'm almost sure they can't - WIPs are only allowed from Published Artists and only on items they intend to sell through DAZ3D store.

    By the way, anybody noticed that PAs now called "Premier Artists". I liked "Published" more, "premier" sounds as a sort of like "Diamond Director".

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 5,540
    edited December 1969

    Yea "Published" sounds more artsy. "Premier" seems like a snooty sort of word. What ever works. Some of the best content IS sold here.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 1,247
    edited December 1969

    makes perfect business sense to me, especially since this is a small market.

  • Agent_UnawaresAgent_Unawares Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    At its own expense, DAZ has continued to provide a forum where 3rd party vendors could advertise their products free of charge to DAZ customers whether or not the products were available for sale on the DAZ site and despite the fact that DAZ competitors long ago disallowed this practice.

    It has unfortunately now become apparent that continuing to allow this practice is detrimental to DAZ and unfair to DAZ Published Artists who publish and promote their products exclusively through the DAZ store.


    Except 'DAZ competitors long ago disallowing this practice' is the reason I never go to those forums...

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 1,588
    edited December 1969

    Wow I hope this doesn't start a war, As I doing all my WIP at renderosity.

  • HeatherleeaHeatherleea Posts: 247
    edited December 1969

    wow, less and less reasons to stay around at all, my days at daz are numbered I think.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 1,247
    edited December 1969

    At its own expense, DAZ has continued to provide a forum where 3rd party vendors could advertise their products free of charge to DAZ customers whether or not the products were available for sale on the DAZ site and despite the fact that DAZ competitors long ago disallowed this practice.

    It has unfortunately now become apparent that continuing to allow this practice is detrimental to DAZ and unfair to DAZ Published Artists who publish and promote their products exclusively through the DAZ store.


    Except 'DAZ competitors long ago disallowing this practice' is the reason I never go to those forums...

    that should tell you that DAZ should have done this long ago. makes no sense for a company to promote items sold in other stores. i can totally see entitled consumers wanting everything in one place since lost sales don't affect them at all. Makes me wonder if DAZ vendors asked for this, I know I would if this was the only place i sold,

  • Agent_UnawaresAgent_Unawares Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Except 'DAZ competitors long ago disallowing this practice' is the reason I never go to those forums...

    that should tell you that DAZ should have done this long ago. makes no sense for a company to promote items sold in other stores. i can totally see entitled consumers wanting everything in one place since lost sales don't affect them at all. Makes me wonder if DAZ vendors asked for this, I know I would if this was the only place i sold,


    I stopped going to those other sites' forums because of this practice. How does that tell me DAZ should have followed suit? All it means is that now I'll go back to their forums and sites and actually shop there instead of cherrypicking only nice stuff from posts I see here, because I can't rely on this forum to keep me in the know. And I'll be coming here a lot less for the same reason. Spending less time and less money.

    I'm pointing out that DAZ will lose sales from me precisely because of this, not... whatever it was you were implying in the second sentence.

  • DAZ_BrianDAZ_Brian Posts: 179
    edited December 1969

    Ultimately what it comes down to is that this practice was just not fair to DAZ PAs.

    From a sheer business perspective it makes no sense for DAZ to promote or allow the promotion of competitors' sites or competing products when we should be promoting our PA's products on OUR site.

    While allowing the practice may have made us look magnanimous to some and while some customers may not be happy with the decision and yes it is even possible that we may lose some sales from those customers, (but we hope not) how many sales did we and our PAs lose because people followed links from our site to a competing site and bought there?

  • Alisa Uh-LisaAlisa Uh-Lisa Posts: 1,248
    edited December 1969

    And what about CUSTOMERS who talk glowingly about other products in the forums - from something that happened today, that seems to be unacceptable now as well. Are we now not allowed to mention products from other stores that we like or show images of them?

    I guess the other part that is incredibly disturbing is that the threads that were just deleted without ANY notice were things that contained information that many of us would have liked to have had a chance to take note of. Couldn't you have given us time to get information from those threads before just deleting them?

  • chrisschellchrisschell Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    Sure from a business perspective it makes perfect sense I agree...

    But from the point of view of being one of those very small independant sites that would be considered a "competitor" I gotta say that this was one of the very few sites left where I could advertise freely so long as it was in the apropriate forum... Removing that ability from us means that we lose another space from a very very short list from which to get any traffic at all... So koodos to Daz and the other "big names" for making sure that us little guys have absolutely no chance to compete at all... lets face it... we just don't have the budget for advertising and marketing the way Daz and the other big sites do...

    I also think that most of the biggies over-look the fact that having us smaller guys in the forums advertising and posting wips etc also provided a draw to Daz's own sites and forums as well... (but hey... what would I know, what with being a forum user as well as an offsite vendor...)

    I know I frequently looked in the forums here to see if I could find things from other sites that I couldn't find in the store here or else where, and I'm sure so did many many others... But as I said... it makes perfect business sense... after all why would companies like Daz want anything other than to close their forums to outsiders when it allows them to protect their own profits and that's what this is all about... nothing more nothing less...

    For me as a simple user here and forum member this is just one more reason amongst many that I have to leave what used to be a very decent company and site to look else where for the community this used to be... I gotta say I find it very sad that big sites like this, who built themselves on the backs of the "community" are now becoming "closed" sites to anyone other than their own exclusive markets... I left Rendo shortly after they started this process for this same reason...

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 1,544
    edited December 1969

    I know there are many upset and a lot of questions here. I am sorry the change has upset and affected some of you. I have my own small site as well so I know how this can and does effect that.

    That said, DAZ3D has debated this for a very long time now. While I can understand feeling DAZ3D is "being selfish" please understand that is not the intent of this decision. The truth of the matter is that while others fill the forum here with information on sales from other sites, information on packs sold elsewhere, etc it is getting increasingly difficult for Artists selling here to be able to give information at the site they are actually selling on. While a merchant at another site has the opportunity to provide details, extra images, tutorials, etc at their store they sell at without the worry of those threads vanishing beneath a pile of others and also the ability to secondarily make the information available here, the vendors here do not.

    For those that wondered if the vendors asked for this, the answer is no. They have always been gracious and understanding on this issue but at some point DAZ3D does need to look out for the best interests of it's vendors.

    For those that have smaller sites, I can completely empathize, I know personally the amount of work and time it takes and what goes into having one and the constraints you have to deal with as I too have a site I won't be able to advertise here anymore. And I too feel the loss of not being able to post here and also don't have "advertising" funds. There are other avenues open to you besides here though. I would highly suggest opening up a Facebook Group for your site as well as Twitter and possibly YouTube and also create a forum if you don't have one as a way to keep in touch with your customers. I have found doing those things has actually helped me more then posting here does and will give you better avenues to both promote and build your business the way you want and by your own rules.

    Again I am very sorry for these changes, it was delayed for years after other sites all ready made these sorts of changes, but DAZ3D has to consider the needs of those who have put their faith in them by selling here and sadly it has become necessary to ensure those selling here have the access, ability, and opportunity necessary to provide information and help to their customers.

    On some of the questions, we will do our best to answer them all tomorrow as many are gone for the day (or in bed in many cases) which is where I am heading :)

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited February 2013

    Well, I think it has been a good community, and will continue to be one. Communities change, and change brings sadness at times, but change is also part of life.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,912
    edited February 2013

    Ann is always here to be warm and cuddly {hugs}

    But I have a question: do we, as people of these forums, even able to discuss and link products from other sites? Not in any special threads, but as references and such in posts?

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 620
    edited February 2013

    I suppose this means among other things that we (the users) can't make threads to compare or ask for opinions on products that are not sold at DAZ.

    Does anybody happen to know any good independent forums? I know about CGSociety, but they tend to be a bit too elitist for my taste.

    Post edited by araneldon on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,637
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:
    I suppose this means among other things that we (the users) can't make threads to compare or ask for opinions on products that are not sold at DAZ.

    Does anybody happen to know any good independent forums? I know about CGSociety, but they tend to be a bit too elitist for my taste.

    This is a good point. What can and cannot be posted regarding off site products? Part of linking, comparing and discussing other products is a big part of this community and its culture. I for one know that it will upset people if they ask for what was used in this render and we cannot reply because of this rule. There needs to be more clarity on this please...

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 1,588
    edited December 1969

    CGSociety, but tend to be a bit too elitist
    That's the under statement of the year.
    Don't go there and mention you're use poser or daz as they eat me alive last time I was there.
    and I haven't been back since!

  • anikadanikad Posts: 1,855
    edited December 1969

    It would have been nice if there had been some warning before the blanket deletions. Not really sure why a company which such a turnover as DAZ is worried about little independent sellers affecting their business. A number of these sellers also sold at Daz. This whole thing smacks as something that was hurriedly done rather than properly thought through.

  • mrposermrposer Posts: 773
    edited December 1969

    I guess the real question is if the forums are for the Daz PAs or the Daz customers. I find it hard to believe the Daz PAs are not able to get their products promoted both in the forums and the ever increasing promotion pages on the site. I think there should be room for information important to Daz customers.... an example is Reality.... there is a new version out and Daz customers should be able to discuss it here where we are in touch with each other. This is a really bad decision in my view... esp. when Daz customers have stuck with the forum thru all the instability of the past year.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,384
    edited December 1969

    anikad said:
    It would have been nice if there had been some warning before the blanket deletions. Not really sure why a company which such a turnover as DAZ is worried about little independent sellers affecting their business. A number of these sellers also sold at Daz. This whole thing smacks as something that was hurriedly done rather than properly thought through.

    You imply you know what their annual takings are though as far as I'm aware they've not been made public. The fact that other websites have done the same thing long ago shows that no, this was not hurriedly done, this is something that they've clearly put a lot of thought into and decided was best. I'll admit, I do have concerns about what level of policing they're going to be doing on this, as if it's to the degree that we're not even allowed to mention products sold on other sites, it would cause all kinds of trouble.

    With their recent change to freebies as well, I'm guessing they're starting to feel the pinch that the recession is putting on everyone. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were further changes planned in the near future to help stabilize the situation.

  • anikadanikad Posts: 1,855
    edited December 1969

    I didn't imply anything of the sort. I read on these forums that Daz has said that they have millions of customers. So one assumes that they have a large turnover, in comparison so a small trader who has say hundreds of customers.

  • edited February 2013

    Honestly, personal opinion aside, I think this is really just evolution. For a while it seemed as if it was hard to pin down what Daz was going to focus on as it evolved. Was it going to stay as a base content provider for outside programs (Zygote), was it going to be the "Digital Art Zone" and try to maintain as a store driven community (emphasis on community: IE, promoted art galleries, regular freebies, Tellware programing, small website community support- kinda Deviant Art in early days), was it going to be a software company with a focus on the development and sales of software / base packages exclusive to that software (DS4 Pro, Hexagon, Car, Bryce, 3rd party software promotions/resale), or was it going to focus on being an exclusive item reseller and utilize the PA/ outside source sales as a means for income and advancing? It's hard to see any company surviving while being all of the above- the focus is too spread out, and there's not a clear direction on where to go next (software manuals remain unfinished, customer support becomes spotty, keeping track of product becomes impossible, advertising becomes cluttered and confusing) . At some points in time, Daz has tried all of those pretty much- now it seems like it's just going through another evolution and finding it's direction for where they wish to be, rather then what they were.
    When Daz was mainly providing base models, like Victoria 1-4, it needed a larger community to 'feed' usable products relying on and exclusively for those models in a short amount of time, and to drive the sale of those models from various outlets. It got them off the ground, and embedded in the 3d community very nicely. Now they just seem to be reining in a bit, and changing focus to in house / PA products to feed the new base models, so it makes sense, really, to tighten down the outsourcing when you can provide the same, or nearly the same products, while still making a profit for the company at your own site.
    Edit: As an abstract, think MTV. Originally, it was for the promotion and advancement of musical artists who were working for other companies- record companies, entertainment companies, etc. Their entire focus was on the musical community, as a whole, and being able to make a profit from that outside source. As they developed their own programing and exclusive titles, they began to focus less on the outside, and more on the internal programing- promoting licensed materials, exclusive programing, regular shows, and drawing in products for themselves. It eventually evolved to the MTV of today, which is a far cry different then that of 1985, but no less successful or profitable. It evolved to what it wanted to be as the conditions around and inside of it changed.

    Post edited by e-bahr_b0b4c77606 on
  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,384
    edited December 1969

    anikad said:
    I didn't imply anything of the sort. I read on these forums that Daz has said that they have millions of customers. So one assumes that they have a large turnover, in comparison so a small trader who has say hundreds of customers.
    It's one thing to have a lot of customers, it's quite another to have a large number of sales. Technically you're still a customer even if you've just bought one item and a ton of freebies.

  • cwichuracwichura Posts: 1,000
    edited December 1969

    1) I don't buy the argument that a link to another site results in lost sales for DAZ. After all, DAZ isn't selling that product in the first place, so how can they lose sales for it? I see this as more of a play for DAZ to get vendors to sell through them instead of one of the other webstores. "Sell with us and you can post in our forums..."

    2) Actual advertisement posts I never looked at, anyway. The only thread that got wiped that I am sorry to see gone is the Reality thread, as that was more of a place for people to get questions about Reality & LuxRender answered than it was a promotional thread. I suppose you could argue that this means DAZ was "subsidizing" support of Reality. But DAZ actually benefits from that, since those people are also using Studio and it promotes Studio.

    3) I find the notion that DAZ is "paying to support their competitors" is a joke as well. Yes, they have to pay for bandwidth, but one subforum feeding small bits of text (as images would be coming from elsewhere anyway) is a drop in the ocean for the bandwidth DAZ consumes hosting their downloads/etc.

    I'm not gonna get worked up over this, as like I said, I never looked at any of the advert threads anyway. For that matter, I skip most of the advert threads from DAZ PAs as well. But I do think this is ultimately a case of DAZ shooting themselves in the foot again.

    The biggest concern I have is for the "can anyone identify this clothing/hair/etc" type posts. When these are products that are sold through another website, what is going to happen to these posts? Are they gonna get instawhacked as soon as someone responds with the answer, before the OP asking the question even gets to see the information about what they are searching for? That will really hurt the usefulness of the forums.

  • FringewoodFringewood Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    This is just another decision by Daz to try and solve a problem by addressing an issue that is not at the core of the real problem. They've been doing it for many years and will most likely continue to do it for as long as they exist, alienating loyal customers along the way, adding to the real problem by piling on yet another unneeded restriction or deterrent. More businesses die from making "wise business decisions" than from any other reason, because they let their business sense make them forget what made them successful in the first place.

    I quit spending money here years ago for much the same reason, and this is just another indicator among all too many that my reason still applies. It's a shame, as I still admire the work of some of the vendors here, but until they go elsewhere to sell their goods, they won't see any of my money.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,384
    edited December 1969

    cwichura said:
    The biggest concern I have is for the "can anyone identify this clothing/hair/etc" type posts. When these are products that are sold through another website, what is going to happen to these posts? Are they gonna get instawhacked as soon as someone responds with the answer, before the OP asking the question even gets to see the information about what they are searching for? That will really hurt the usefulness of the forums.

    That's my concern as well. The renewed TOS leaves this at a bit of a grey area since it doesn't really specify that only commercials are banned. If you're promoting a product belonging to another person, as a recommendation or whatever, does that come under fire? We could really use an official word on this one, as it's my only major concern.

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