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Shader mixer displacement blicks P and N quesiton
Posted: 05 February 2013 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I now studying tutorial,, then have some quesiton.

when I Import blicks from duz default shader,
there are already, bump and displacement blicks.

then I understand,, displacement effect actuall Displaced point (P), positon.

bump effect Displaced Normal (N) (facing direction, so that light make, dark and blight difference?)

but, when I check how blicks are connected,

both of P and N , in default Displacement first blick <out put>, connect to second blick (bump blick) < in put> .
then,, still more, P of default Displacement first blick<out put> connect to filnal blick which may determin about displacement.
(picture 1)

but about bump blick,, the P never effect to final displacement surface blick ,, I think.
actually, bump (p) output not connect,, to final blick (input)
so that,, the connection,, P of Displacement blick to Bump blick has meaning?

then,, if I disconnect , P of Displacement blick to final brick ,
after that, connect P of Bump (output) to final blick (input)  there is difference? like my picture2,,,

input P over write the value , so the Bump blick set the input value, and copy the value to final blick,,I think,,
it is something worng and diffrerence? 
hope,, someone teach me ^^;

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displace1.JPGdisplacement2.JPG
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Posted: 05 February 2013 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The DS Default Displacement brick (the ones you’ve labeled Bump & Displacement) has to connect directly to the Displacement root brick for either Bump or Displacement to work, in your second picture the Bump brick is asking DS for Displacement as both N & P are connected, but you’ve gone and given DS a headache by connecting the other brick only through the Bump brick.

The big problem is you can only have the one Displacement root brick (the one on the right in your pictures) in a shader and three separate displacement functions need access to it, so you need to have connection lines running around the place to get them all to work with one root brick.

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Posted: 06 February 2013 02:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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thank you bejay,, I understand,, (not all,, but feeling^^; so first I think ,,I need to each defautl displacement N and P
to last root displacement blick ,, it is reosonable,,
Bump need N,  displacement need P ,, so coneect two blicks to last root dsiplacement blick.

so that I must need connect each dispacement out put (P) and bump out put (N) to last root displacement blick.

then,,, one more question,,,

why first defualt Displacement out put (P) and (N)  need to connect second defualt Displacement
(bump,,I changed labell to clear understand for me ^^;) P and N too?
the second difualt Displacement blick may work as Bump ,, only N. not move vertices,,,

and the N direction value are decided bump image which I connect the image blick already,,

why apply first diffult Displacement blicks P and N value to Bump (diffault Dsiplade ment blicks) again?

if I disconnect first Displacement blicks and Second Displacement blicks, P and N, it can not work? 
or effect may change? 

it means,,,  when I apply displacement texture, it change vertices postion and face direction at same time,,
then tell the value to bump blicks,, if there is the bump texture,,
bumptexture change faces direction again, then tell the value to final blicks ?:roll:

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Posted: 06 February 2013 03:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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If you use bump AND displacement on a surface at the same time, then displacement is applied first and bump is applied after that. Hopefully the attached picture makes it a bit clearer. If you apply displacement AND bump, then the surface normals are already altered by the displacement before you add the bump.

The other important point is this:
- Displacement alters both P and N, so you need to use both P and N outputs
- Bump only affects N, so you only use the N output .

(P.S. This is how I think it works - I may be wrong!)

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bump.png.png
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Posted: 06 February 2013 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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thank you!!  3dcheapskate

your pic make me more easy to understand,,, directly I can image,, how these map work^^:lol:

I confused first,, displadement and bump difference,  (displacement really change postion,, upward or down,,
but bump not change actually,, etc,,^^;)

but tweaking shader mixer,, now I get clear image,,,how work each blick,,  in daz studio,,
,, thank you much ^^  yours!!  it seems solved for me now.

(and I think yours clear guide may help other new user too ^^)

 

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Posted: 06 February 2013 06:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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どういたしまして grin

(do itashi mashte = “you’re welcome”, with a bit of help from Google translate to get the hiragana… double-checked with several places to make sure!)

I hope I got the right language?

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Posted: 07 February 2013 09:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Edit: here’s an updated version of the picture - I’ve tidied it up a bit and I think it’s a bit more accurate.

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Posted: 07 February 2013 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Thank you !!  I check later,, I hoped to say thank you again ,,
(I think,,,good chance ^^b)

and yes ,,

your are welcome = dou itashi mashite ^^; (I learned so,,,)

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Posted: 16 February 2013 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Now I want to ask more,, about shader mixer blicks here,,,

I can not clearly understand “opacity” (color) of root>surface blcik ,
and opasity strongness (daz default shader properties)

1 I create cube1, cube2
2 I make new shader in shader mixer,  only load “root>surface blick”
3 I apply the shader to the cube1 surfaces
4 There is opacity properies , I set “Opacity” as black.  then change “Color” as blue

I thought,, the object become transparet. but not.
it can remove shadow, but the cube1 keep color (as if ambient the blue color) when I render.

next I import daz default shader of cube2,  to shader mixer,

DS default materials blick are connected surface blick,
I Disconnect Material color and color of surface blcik,

then DS default materials blick proprety (input >opacity> Color Strength)
connect to output>  Matterial opacity to the Surface opacity .

I set color “opacity >color Strength” in DS default blcik, turn black.
then apply the shader to cube 2 surface.

when ds 3d view,,  cube 2 become transparent,  when I render it, it can not change the cube transparent

MY qusesion is,  where is different,, Opacity(color) in surface blick and
Opacity strongness of daz default shader blick?

and,, I know daz default shader have Opacity Strength as “value” (0 to 100 % or, 0 to 1) in surface tab,
when I set the value zero, it must change the surface transparent.

but in shader mixer it turn as Color (RGB) propertie,,, 

so If I want to make a opacity strength as value,
and want to make shader which can transparent, How can I do it in shader mixer? 
is there blicks for setting opacity strongness as value?

I thought,,,opacity black = opacity strenght “zero”  and white =“1 or 100%” grey scale,, but no?

hope someone guide me, please

 

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opacity1.JPGopacity2.JPG
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Posted: 16 February 2013 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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kitakoredaz - 16 February 2013 05:45 AM

Now I want to ask more,, about shader mixer blicks here,,,

I can not clearly understand “opacity” (color) of root>surface blcik ,
and opasity strongness (daz default shader properties)

1 I create cube1, cube2
2 I make new shader in shader mixer,  only load “root>surface blick”
3 I apply the shader to the cube1 surfaces
4 There is opacity properies , I set “Opacity” as black.  then change “Color” as blue

I thought,, the object become transparet. but not.
it can remove shadow, but the cube1 keep color (as if ambient the blue color) when I render.

next I import daz default shader of cube2,  to shader mixer,

DS default materials blick are connected surface blick,
I Disconnect Material color and color of surface blcik,

then DS default materials blick proprety (input >opacity> Color Strength)
connect to output>  Matterial opacity to the Surface opacity .

I set color “opacity >color Strength” in DS default blcik, turn black.
then apply the shader to cube 2 surface.

when ds 3d view,,  cube 2 become transparent,  when I render it, it can not change the cube transparent

MY qusesion is,  where is different,, Opacity(color) in surface blick and
Opacity strongness of daz default shader blick?

and,, I know daz default shader have Opacity Strength as “value” (0 to 100 % or, 0 to 1) in surface tab,
when I set the value zero, it must change the surface transparent.

but in shader mixer it turn as Color (RGB) propertie,,, 

so If I want to make a opacity strength as value,
and want to make shader which can transparent, How can I do it in shader mixer? 
is there blicks for setting opacity strongness as value?

I thought,,,opacity black = opacity strenght “zero”  and white =“1 or 100%” grey scale,, but no?

hope someone guide me, please

 

The slider for Opacity strength is a DAZ studio convention

3DLight the render engine uses color to control how transparent something is in the Opacity channel.

what we are probably not seeing in the shader mixer is the render-time script that does some magic to make it work.

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Posted: 16 February 2013 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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mm,, thank you,,
I can understand the color strongness is shown as float (or percentage) value on ds surface tab.
and it may be changed by DAZ script etc ^^; (but not hope to understand more detail,,)

then,, I simply feel strange, why the simple shader made by shader mixer,root blicks,
and import from daz default shader,,  can not make cube transparent @@;?

even though I set opacity color as black,,

then I try and find, when I set “color” black with “opacity” black, too,
it can make the cube transparet.

so,, the “color” is what?  not only diffuse color? 

and simply hope to know what “opacity” (color which need to set for opacity property)
property of root surface shader?  how it work?

I know,, in ds surface tab,, I can set opacity map texture,, on this case, black area turn transparetn
and another area can be shown, and if I set grey texture,, may half transparetn
(So I thought, the color is grey scale value,, ,,,)

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Posted: 16 February 2013 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Did you render the version that had only the root brick, or did you just stop when it didn’t preview correctly? For me such a surface is visible in preview, but does not appear in renders - I think the difference is due to the DAZ Material brick having code to preview correctly, but the root brick not having preview code (or less complete preview code).

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Posted: 17 February 2013 12:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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thnak you richard,,,
(I think,,if it cause because,, my AMD video driver ,,
First I need to each shader mixer blick work correclty or not ^^;)

About daz default shader, (not use shader mixer) the opacity strength work what I thought.
on 3d view, and after render.. simply opacity strongneth value is how transparetn the surface.

and usually I need to render to check shader effect (made by shader mixer,, )

load root surface blick only,
it must show the “color”  of cube when I render.  but on 3d view, it keep grey defalut color.
shader mixer pleview is transparent. I can not check any color.

I just load root “surface” blick, in shader mixer,  then apply it on cube surface.

Property “opacity” = “black”, 
property “color” = “blue”  (or red , yellow green,, white,, )
in shader mixer preview,, the color disappear.
om 3d view,, cube keep default surface grey color.

then render it.  = pic1

everytime,,it show ambient blue property “color” (or red , yellow green,, white,, )

I want to confirm ,,,the effect of root blicks are supposed to be?
or there is something problem about video driver?

but when I set “color” =“black” too, as same as “opacity”
and render, it transparent, I can not see the black color

 

 

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Posted: 17 February 2013 01:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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wuuu,,,I am confused,,,

if I set color (128,255,0) (light green)  then , opacity (0,0,0) of root surface blick,
it shows yellow .(ambient)

if I set color (128.128.255) (violet)  opacity (0.0.0)
it shows white,,, 

  now I render with default 3delight setting(restore default)
how work color and opacity?  confused or AMD Radeon is so foolish??

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white.JPG
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Posted: 17 February 2013 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I think the root suface brick is not supposed to be used by itself   I always use the DS Default Material Brick with it

The surface brick is what tells the Render Engine how to apply the Shader ( I think all the “ROOT” bricks do this) 

so I leave the settings on the root brick alone and do all the work and changes through the DS Default Material Brick.

in my mind I think of the root bricks as the final output,  not something we should change, it is just something that is necessary for Daz Studio to communicate with the Render Engine the information about the shaders.

the ONLY root brick I use as a standalone is the “Indirect Lighting Camera Shader” Brick.

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Posted: 17 February 2013 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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ya,, thank you I understand what you said.
actually, I may never use only root surface blick if I make shader.

then I want to know about each property of blicks, so first checked it by most simple case ^^;

but I may need to apply ds default blicks, then tweak daz default blicks and connect other blicks as you said.
it seems better..
(do not hope to stay long about root surface blick ^^;)

I understand if I connect ds default shader and surface root blick,
and keep connect both of (Material color to color ) (Material opacity to opacity)
it work as I hoped.

(but I want to tweak to confirm,  why when I unconnect “material color” of daz default shader material
and use root blicks color property,,the opacity can not work ^^; I believe color property of root blick not only diffuse color,,
or it has some meaning ^^;)

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