Tomboy instead of Girly Girl Poses.

DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
edited December 1969 in The Commons

It's a fairly minor issue, since it's easily possible to use "male" poses with female figures, but occasionally, it still bugs me a bit in the back of my mind that the poses for V5, Julie, Stephanie 5, etc are just .... so girly. Especially standing and walking poses. Not all, to be sure, but a sizable majority. They're clearly intended to be cute, elegant, feminine, flirtatious, or sexy. That's not to say that anything is wrong with those poses. I also realize that the sizable majority of people doing renders of women that aren't in combat are doing women who would be standing in a more feminine pose. And it's not uncommon for me to do such pictures. But just as often, I'm doing pictures of a character who is more of a tomboy, and the tomboys I've known (myself and my daughter included) don't stand in girly poses very often, if ever.

As I said, I know I can use male poses with female morphs (or even female figures, in the case of Gen 4 and older), and I usually do. But the female pelvis is shaped differently, and women have a (slightly) lower center of gravity than men. So even in neutral or male poses, a female's stance is going to be slightly different. It's not beyond my abilities to make those adjustments, or adjust a female pose, but it can be tedious, depending on if the rotations are in the hip or the pelvis or the base figure.

I guess what I'm hoping for, with this minor not-quite-rant, is for pose makers to include a few more poses where a woman (or girl) is walking or standing in a manner that doesn't also emphasize or (worse) exaggerate her femininity, please.

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Comments

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    ...I have to agree.

    I often end up using some of the Kid poses to start from then modify them to suit the scene.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,241
    edited December 1969

    Well...I think a number of the 'male' poses tend to be 'girly' too...most guys won't stand the way lots of these poses are set up...there's a very real fear that doing so will turn the toast to crumbs. I think many, especially the Gen5 ones, like the base mesh are more or less 'gender neutral'.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Well...I think a number of the 'male' poses tend to be 'girly' too...most guys won't stand the way lots of these poses are set up...there's a very real fear that doing so will turn the toast to crumbs. I think many, especially the Gen5 ones, like the base mesh are more or less 'gender neutral'.

    Hmm. Except for the Hiro poses, and some of the early pre-M5 sets, I haven't noticed that as much. That may be because the majority of the male poses I purchase are done by merchants that I know are male, so would presumably be aware of issues like that. :)

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,241
    edited December 1969

    I haven't bought or looked at any males, in a while...but it's mostly the M5 ones I was thinking about. And as far as Hiro goes, I never really liked that many poses for him, since way back...

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 5,450
    edited December 1969

    I would love more 'gender neutral' genesis poses, or everyday life poses suitable for genesis of either gender or age. I agree 100% that some pose sets can be a bit overly flirty, thus negating it for renders where you are not looking for that look.

    For me, a pose set is more versatile if both genders and in between can use it.

    My particular pose peeve is facial expressions. Most sets seem designed with female characters in mind.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    ...save for the original Sadie Faces and SadieXpression Magic (because there ere few if any facial morphs for the original sweet little toon girl) , I rarely any use facial pose sets.

    Probably the only other pose sets I know of that aren't so "girly girly" are the Sensational She Freak ones for SF4 and MarvelUS ones. Not sure how they work with say the Teens5 though because of the default foot position the Gen4 figures have.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited January 2013

    ...double post due to stupid network resets (again).

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,931
    edited January 2013

    Males need "Male Designed" Expressions badly. I agree with Serene there. In my mind, they mostly seem based or focused on female expressions. I also agree that the female pose sets are exaggerated feminism. (I'd say that has something to do with the market tending to focus on "Sexy" and Idealism)

    I really do dislike the injector approach to expressions. We have sliders for a reason, I rarely use any expression or even morph for that matter at 100%... I always mix and match... The use of Expressions require the ability to be able to tone it down, that's why Sliders are Ideal.

    - I am also a little disappointed when I buy an expression or morph pack that uses morphs like evolution and morphs++ etc. It's not that they don't do an excellent job many look fantastic!, but it's kinda like 'I could have done that myself'. I like to buy brand new morphs and expressions that have been modeled not using existing morphs to do it. You end up with the same shapes you originally had in the first place.

    Just my opinion, No offense intended. :)

    Post edited by SpyroRue on
  • Proxima ShiningProxima Shining Posts: 1,001
    edited December 1969

    I would also welcome female poses that look normal, as I already have tons of cute, ellegant or sexy etc. poses, which are sadly unsuitable for some renders. Finding one or two poses in the pose sets available, that are useable for non-cute, non-sexy, non-overly-feminine renders is a major pain. Also, more stuff for males would be nice, but content makers seem to rather ignore guys, or maybe they go with "it is Genesis, so a pose can be used on every figure".

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,241
    edited December 1969

    but content makers seem to rather ignore guys, or maybe they go with "it is Genesis, so a pose can be used on every figure".

    What I want to know is why, and this goes for Gen4, too...I have an easier time finding male poses I like/think I can use among the various freebie offerings than from the pose packs in the store?

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,405
    edited December 1969

    Male stuff does not sell well. It never has compared to the stuff for girls.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,993
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    Male stuff does not sell well. It never has compared to the stuff for girls.

    I think it's worse for poses than some other items, though. I make a decent living for a single person in my area on mostly male-to-unisex clothes.


    Fuseling and I have a "guy eating pastries" pose set for M5 coming up at Rendo. How it does will determine whether we do future poses and whether they are for males or females.


    Meanwhile, may I recommend Structure's excellent freebies at Rendo? He has some great aggressive/neutral female poses as well as for males. He's done about every type of pose for both sexes. When you see how much he's done it's worth getting Posemaster and the People Packs just to be able to convert it all and never buy another "Help, I'm stuck swayhipped on tiptoe" female pose set again.


    I am a hard sell on paying for poses when so many are free. But of the more feminine pose sets I've seen, Mattymanx's were among the best, and I've bought some of them. I also really like the Subtle Poses sets by Elele. Some of the female versions are overly girly for me, some are perfect; but I use the M5 ones ALL the time as a basis for promo poses.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 5,450
    edited December 1969

    I am in the minority, but I tend to portray a few different characters and most of 'em are guys with the occasional lady character. So I like more male outfits and pose sets. I occasionally succumb and buy a Gen 4 male outfit for autofit, but I've stopped buying gen 4 men altogether. I really only want m5/genesis compatible stuff now.

    I think there is a market for guy stuff, but, it needs to be well done guy stuff. For example bad guy for genesis is a very useful and versatile set. I've used that quite a bit. Some other clothing I do not care for, since it's genre is mixed, the pants are rubbery, there are no buckles, pockets, beltbuckles or the pants look like tights. I only need so many outfits like that.

    So I guess for me, just because its 'made for men' doesn't really mean, It's going to sell, and I can see that. To me, it also has to have some detail, and appeal and be something that looks good in a render. Many of the outfits of M4, for example outstrip some of the stuff being sold for Gen 5 guys in detail and versatility. I'm not clear why that is, but to me, outfits for male genesis aren't as detailed.

    I tend to not bother with free poses, unles it is clear they are available for commercial use. Sometimes the terms of use of free poses are difficult to find, or unclear.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,398
    edited December 1969

    I have to admit I never quite see the Male stuff doesn't sell bit. Up until recently I grabbed virtually every Male outfit that came out, just because it was something for my men, and even if I didn't use it straight out of the box, I could maybe use it for kit bashing.

    Things have only changed because I am one who does still use gen 4. There are more than a few outfits that have come out recently that would have jumped into my cart quicker than that if they had been for M4.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    Male stuff does not sell well. It never has compared to the stuff for girls.

    I think it's worse for poses than some other items, though. I make a decent living for a single person in my area on mostly male-to-unisex clothes.


    Fuseling and I have a "guy eating pastries" pose set for M5 coming up at Rendo. How it does will determine whether we do future poses and whether they are for males or females.


    Meanwhile, may I recommend Structure's excellent freebies at Rendo? He has some great aggressive/neutral female poses as well as for males. He's done about every type of pose for both sexes. When you see how much he's done it's worth getting Posemaster and the People Packs just to be able to convert it all and never buy another "Help, I'm stuck swayhipped on tiptoe" female pose set again.


    I am a hard sell on paying for poses when so many are free. But of the more feminine pose sets I've seen, Mattymanx's were among the best, and I've bought some of them. I also really like the Subtle Poses sets by Elele. Some of the female versions are overly girly for me, some are perfect; but I use the M5 ones ALL the time as a basis for promo poses.

    I have most (possibly all) of Structures free poses from ShareCG. I just don't have them organized and tend to forget about them, because I don't have Posemaster (yet), so I go through the Genesis poses first before trying to find one that works in the Gen 4 (or even gen 3) poses.

    I have Elele's subtle poses for M5, and couples. I wasn't able to pick up the V5 set, though it's on my list. The M5 subtle poses tend to be my "Goto" guy poses, too.

    Mattymanx's poses are on my wish list too. I'm less resistant to buying poses than a lot of people, but they do tend to be low on my list as a whole. Though your "Guy eating pastry" poses will certainly be on said list. (I can't promise more than that, since I've tightened my virtual belt until after March Madness)

    The perpetual guystuff not selling well is an issue, of course. And I'm sure that the sort of poses I'm looking for wouldn't sell much better as it's own set (though I'd be thrilled if a merchant would give it a try.) So I'm just hoping for maybe 4-6 "non-girly" poses in a given set, as compared to the current 0-3 in most of them. (not including mirrors)

  • BejaymacBejaymac Posts: 1,025
    edited December 1969

    or maybe they go with "it is Genesis, so a pose can be used on every figure".

    Which is a major issue for me, because one pose does not fit all, each character morph DAZ releases has a modified rig and as such needs it's own poses, as using poses for other characters are just as likely to push hands into bodies and feet into shins as they are to work.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Posts: 348
    edited December 1969

    Girls are girls and boys are boys. Pffff. Silly humans.

    Besides, everyone knows the girly poses are all created by lonely men with lots of silly notions in their heads of the 'perfect' woman. :cheese:

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    Male stuff does not sell well. It never has compared to the stuff for girls.

    ...which is really sad. Even in the toon genre female content way out does male character content. Just look at the offerings for Sam, Gramps, and Gosha (both commercial and freebie) compared to those for Sadie and Mavka.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    Girls are girls and boys are boys. Pffff. Silly humans.

    Besides, everyone knows the girly poses are all created by lonely men with lots of silly notions in their heads of the 'perfect' woman. :cheese:

    Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
    It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world except for Lola
    Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola

    --The Kinks

  • FeralFeyFeralFey Posts: 1,262
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    Male stuff does not sell well. It never has compared to the stuff for girls.

    For the record, my Waiting in Line Too set outsold Waiting in Line, much to my surprise. And with my Before... poses the male versions sold more than the female. So, in these cases, the male poses outsold the female. But on the whole, Matty is correct.

    I just found this thread, so forgive my lateness to the party.

    I try, on the whole, to design my poses with gender in mind. Men and women hold themselves differently. And I do a LOT of research before I begin a set, just so I make sure that I'm getting it right. But sometimes, I think, that if a pose isn't dynamic and exciting, there is the urge to make it so because dynamic and exciting translates into sales/interest. And that means a lot of poses out there tend to be more exaggerated and over the top, and therefore making it hard to find realistic poses, or gender neutral ones.

    I try to cover both male and female in my sets (or I make counterpart sets), because I know there's a difference between genders in terms of balance and center of gravity.

    And to address the issue of Genesis and poses that Bejaymac brought up - no, not every pose translates across the board. I have to be honest, I have a hard time when making a set to narrow in on what shape to support because a pose that works on, for example, Genesis Basic Male will not look the same on M5 Superhero. It requires extra tweaking by the end user to get the pose to look right. (Don't even get me started on the Basic Female to V5 pose conversions. Lol.) So do I make a set that covers the base and looks off on the other shapes, or do I make a set that encompasses many shapes with all the pricing problems that that entails? Or do I make a bunch of sets for the same poses, tailored to specific shapes - but who's going to buy all that in a market that is already inundated with free pose sets? I really would love to be able to support ALL the Genesis shapes, but I don't see how I can do that from a practical standpoint. So I would like to hear from you all which shapes you'd like to see support for, and I will do my best to accommodate.

    I appreciate the candor of this thread. As a pose maker, I try to listen and make notes of requests for poses that people are looking for. I want to know what people are looking for - apart from the pin-up poses. I think that side of the market is well and truly covered. (Besides, I did Timeless Beauty and filled that square, so there. :P ) Lol.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    For myself, since I tend to use the base characters at something other than full strength, Base female/male or V5/M5 for adult/universally appropriate poses, and the young teens for teen-tween appropriate poses works well enough for me.

    I have both the waiting in line poses, and frequently use them as a base to modify into what I need.

    I don't know who did the Julie/Justin poses that came with the Young Teens pro-pack, but I know one of the two sets is kinda what set me off on this. Three walking poses for Justin. One for Julie. Justin also got a couple of football poses. Julie had one pose that could be dance or gymnastics. (and all of Julie's sitting poses in that set were sitting on the ground.) More of the good ol' "Boys act, girls are" stereotype. Kinda a pain when you're trying to show a girl who acts. (Or kicks. I'm seriously thinking of enlisting my daughter in making my own set of Taekwondo for Genesis poses.)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,993
    edited January 2013

    For myself, since I tend to use the base characters at something other than full strength, Base female/male or V5/M5 for adult/universally appropriate poses, and the young teens for teen-tween appropriate poses works well enough for me.

    I have both the waiting in line poses, and frequently use them as a base to modify into what I need.

    I don't know who did the Julie/Justin poses that came with the Young Teens pro-pack, but I know one of the two sets is kinda what set me off on this. Three walking poses for Justin. One for Julie. Justin also got a couple of football poses. Julie had one pose that could be dance or gymnastics. (and all of Julie's sitting poses in that set were sitting on the ground.) More of the good ol' "Boys act, girls are" stereotype. Kinda a pain when you're trying to show a girl who acts. (Or kicks. I'm seriously thinking of enlisting my daughter in making my own set of Taekwondo for Genesis poses.)


    When I was in high school - in the late 90's, even! - girls played volleyball, basketball, soccer, and track and field (I threw shotput and discus, albeit very badly). The kids at the bigger schools had swimming, tennis and golf. My sisters were in a self-defense class as well. Dance and gymnastics were for kids whose parents could afford expensive private lessons, so few kids did them.


    In the pose maker's defense, though: dance and gymnastics do not require additional props for most poses. The sports I named mostly do. I suspect that is probably much more of a factor than unconscious gender discrimination. And martial arts poses are another kettle of fish entirely because they are so complex and difficult - you don't see a ton of those in general. The ones you do see seem to all be male, though, and that is sad. I would love to see you do some Taekwondo poses.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,390
    edited December 1969

    I think the point is that a lot of the time, female sets are model poses -showing off, standing or seated, while the male poses are more likely to be active. It's something I've noticed, and chuntered at, before.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,405
    edited January 2013

    Looking over my own pose sets, both free and for sale, the set "Caiman Crew" has the most non feminate poses for the girls that I have ever done. But even then you can still see the difference between the M4 and V4 poses. Oddly enough, I did not enjoy making that pose set as much as all the others cause to me they seemed dull in comparison to my other female poses. They seem dull to me cause it does not flow with all that I learned in years past with regards to drawing. All my training and influence for drawing revolves around comic books, specifically Marvel Comics and though I cannot draw to save my life I honestly could not betray all that I learned in regards to human posture and movement. There are certain rules in drawing that apply very well to posing characters in 3D.

    If you want to read my two cents on posing from scratch, please see here - http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/14711/#213991 - as I touch on why I recommend looking at it from a drawing perspective. And in all honesty, learing to do your own poses is extremely satisfying.


    I think the point is that a lot of the time, female sets are model poses -showing off, standing or seated, while the male poses are more likely to be active. It's something I've noticed, and chuntered at, before.


    You are correct. Part of the reason why I stay away from doing modeling poses for girls is that they have been over done and in general are of little use beyond a pin up render.

    Post edited by Mattymanx on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,993
    edited December 1969

    I think the point is that a lot of the time, female sets are model poses -showing off, standing or seated, while the male poses are more likely to be active. It's something I've noticed, and chuntered at, before.

    Well, you can get male model poses (DZheng has some great ones) or a huge variety of poses depicting women as victims of violence (something DAZ does not support, bless 'em) but you certainly are right about action/proactive poses for women. This is also why I'm a big fan of Structure as mentioned earlier.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    For myself, since I tend to use the base characters at something other than full strength, Base female/male or V5/M5 for adult/universally appropriate poses, and the young teens for teen-tween appropriate poses works well enough for me.

    I have both the waiting in line poses, and frequently use them as a base to modify into what I need.

    I don't know who did the Julie/Justin poses that came with the Young Teens pro-pack, but I know one of the two sets is kinda what set me off on this. Three walking poses for Justin. One for Julie. Justin also got a couple of football poses. Julie had one pose that could be dance or gymnastics. (and all of Julie's sitting poses in that set were sitting on the ground.) More of the good ol' "Boys act, girls are" stereotype. Kinda a pain when you're trying to show a girl who acts. (Or kicks. I'm seriously thinking of enlisting my daughter in making my own set of Taekwondo for Genesis poses.)


    When I was in high school - in the late 90's, even! - girls played volleyball, basketball, soccer, and track and field (I threw shotput and discus, albeit very badly). The kids at the bigger schools had swimming, tennis and golf. My sisters were in a self-defense class as well. Dance and gymnastics were for kids whose parents could afford expensive private lessons, so few kids did them.


    In the pose maker's defense, though: dance and gymnastics do not require additional props for most poses. The sports I named mostly do. I suspect that is probably much more of a factor than unconscious gender discrimination. And martial arts poses are another kettle of fish entirely because they are so complex and difficult - you don't see a ton of those in general. The ones you do see seem to all be male, though, and that is sad. I would love to see you do some Taekwondo poses.

    if there had been two more Julie walking poses, and one more gymnastics/dance pose, I probably wouldn't have really noticed. But since she had 2 "active" poses to Justin's 5, it stood out.

    (My High school was large enough than even in the mid-80's, we had Volleyball, Basketball, Track and field, Soccer, Gymnastics, swimming, tennis, badminton and softball teams for both boys and girls. We also supported a dance team. But it was a big school, with about 2/3 of the students being "upper middle class")

    Believe me, I can understand how Martial Arts poses are difficult. I get to watch my daughter practice. :) Doing a pose set with her would probably help her too, since she sometimes flows a little quickly from one movement to the next when doing her forms, so having to hold at each point while I snapped a couple of pictures might help her remember to pause between each one.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    Okay, so... I don't know if anyone still cares, but my Taekwondo pose project has both been delayed, and gotten a little more complicated, but in a good way.

    I spoke to my daughter's instructor (she was the head instructor under the previous owner and just bought the school from him) about the project and that I was willing to offer my services to help make illustrated charts for the kids once the project was done.

    Well, my daughter's instructor is also a photographer. and she has a green screen. And is willing to help me take the pictures in a massive photo session or two, and then, once I get the poses done, spread the word to other schools, possibly all the way up the line and get them some sort of official recognition. As in I could make money from this.

    But we also agreed to wait until after the March Tournament, since my daughter's schedule is a little booked between Taekwondo classes, rehearsals for a Speech and Drama competition, the Constitution test and the state standardized testing. All of which is over just before the tournament.

    So... yeah. that's where I am on my Taekwondo poses project

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 5,993
    edited December 1969

    Hey, that's awesome! I'll look forward to seeing them when they're done. :-)

  • TorbyTorby Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Girls are girls and boys are boys. Pffff. Silly humans.

    Besides, everyone knows the girly poses are all created by lonely men with lots of silly notions in their heads of the 'perfect' woman. :cheese:

    The girls' "battle wear" seems to have the same problem :D

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    ...actually Xurge does a pretty decent job with his futuristic battle wear as It leaves little to nothing exposed.

    Never understood the rationale of running into a high threat situation with one's midsection unprotected. A shot to the gut, especially from a modern assault weapon, is one of the worst as it can do a heck of a lot of internal damage and can often be fatal.

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