Digital Art Zone

 
   
1 of 3
1
Errant edge and vertex
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  287
Joined  0

Greetings all, I hope someone can help me with this.
I modeled this in hexagon and brought it in to carrara to texture and while making shading domains and hiding selections I get this curious edge and vertex when I click in the window. The vertex at the bottom of the edge is below the bottom of the bottle and is not connected to anything. I cant select it. If I select all by keyboard command the edge and vertex are not selected and it appears clean. Granted I am not very good at modeling but plod along until something like this comes along. Sorry for the long winded question. Oh and one other thing, why am i left with those vertices in image 2 when I cut and paste? Thanx very much. And if anyone is suspicious that this post is a joke, rest assured it is not. Thanx again

Image Attachments
What_is_it2.pngWhat_is_it_3.png
Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  435
Joined  2010-09-22

I too use HEX as my number one modeler then export import into Carrara but have never run across this!

Try this in Carrara .. select the ERRANT POINT then select dissolve, I think is what it is. OR find out what PLOY it belongs to and simple DRAG it up to your liking.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  116
Joined  0

Are you in the vertex modeler when you are trying to delete the stray vertex ?

I have found that if you are doing ruled surfaces,double sweeps, Gordons, or coons in the vertex modeler you will get strays such as you are showing, but to delete them you must be in the modeling room….use the sissors to cut em out.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4524
Joined  2007-09-13

Without looking at the actual file, I’d say part of the problem is duplicated vertices…try ‘welding’ or removing doubles or what ever Hex or Carrara offer.  The rest may be from subdivision/smoothing…especially with ‘extra’ verts.

But often, when an errant vert pops up like that, you need to scrap it and start over.  In this case, probably just redo the cap…

 Signature 

1432 old posts

My ShareCG gallery.

Just because something costs a lot, doesn’t mean it’s the best…

It just means it’s expensive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6044
Joined  2006-08-27

Why scrap the model? Can’t it be opened in Hex again to see if it shows up there? If so, why couldn’t it be deleted in the modeler where it was made?

 Signature 

I find it somewhat liberating not to be encumbered by accuracy.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 09:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4524
Joined  2007-09-13
evilproducer - 28 December 2012 09:37 PM

Why scrap the model? Can’t it be opened in Hex again to see if it shows up there? If so, why couldn’t it be deleted in the modeler where it was made?

Generally when errant vertices like that start showing up, there are other geometry problems…and the time spent trying to track them down is usually more than just scrapping the problem piece (like I said, in this case the cap) and recreating it.

If it is something as simple as duplicate/unwelded vertices, then it’s an easy fix.  But if it is caused by something else…then you can spend hours trying to track it down (been there, done that…didn’t want the damn t-shirt).

 Signature 

1432 old posts

My ShareCG gallery.

Just because something costs a lot, doesn’t mean it’s the best…

It just means it’s expensive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6044
Joined  2006-08-27
mjc1016 - 28 December 2012 09:58 PM
evilproducer - 28 December 2012 09:37 PM

Why scrap the model? Can’t it be opened in Hex again to see if it shows up there? If so, why couldn’t it be deleted in the modeler where it was made?

Generally when errant vertices like that start showing up, there are other geometry problems…and the time spent trying to track them down is usually more than just scrapping the problem piece (like I said, in this case the cap) and recreating it.

If it is something as simple as duplicate/unwelded vertices, then it’s an easy fix.  But if it is caused by something else…then you can spend hours trying to track it down (been there, done that…didn’t want the damn t-shirt).


Makes sense. I’m not that good with vertex modeling, so any insight into the process is good insight.

 Signature 

I find it somewhat liberating not to be encumbered by accuracy.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 December 2012 10:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4524
Joined  2007-09-13
evilproducer - 28 December 2012 10:01 PM
mjc1016 - 28 December 2012 09:58 PM
evilproducer - 28 December 2012 09:37 PM

Why scrap the model? Can’t it be opened in Hex again to see if it shows up there? If so, why couldn’t it be deleted in the modeler where it was made?

Generally when errant vertices like that start showing up, there are other geometry problems…and the time spent trying to track them down is usually more than just scrapping the problem piece (like I said, in this case the cap) and recreating it.

If it is something as simple as duplicate/unwelded vertices, then it’s an easy fix.  But if it is caused by something else…then you can spend hours trying to track it down (been there, done that…didn’t want the damn t-shirt).


Makes sense. I’m not that good with vertex modeling, so any insight into the process is good insight.

I had one that took me two days (about 8 hrs each) to track down….I had spent less than 4 hrs making the original model, but the problem didn’t crop up until all the rigging and morphs were made for it.  It was when testing the rigging that it showed up.  So I tried tracking down the cause of the ‘fly away vertex’...in the end I found it…a single unwelded vertex.  But I probably spent enough time to recreate the thing from scratch, including rigging and morphs, several times over doing so.  After that, I made up my mind that if I couldn’t find the cause quickly, to just scrap it and start over.

 Signature 

1432 old posts

My ShareCG gallery.

Just because something costs a lot, doesn’t mean it’s the best…

It just means it’s expensive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1073
Joined  2007-10-15

My initial thought, and this could be way off, was that it might be a visibility issue. You said you were hiding vertices, and sometimes, when you’re not seeing the whole thing, selections might not work as you thought they would.

It’s hard to explain, but if, for example, an entire polygon is not visible, just one edge of it, and you’re in polygon selection mode, you’ll click on the edge and nothing will happen. Bad example, but maybe if you try unhiding everything you’ll be able to select it. Or maybe you think you’ve un-hid everything, but not really, and some parts are unselectable.

And if you’re doing it in the Carrara modeller, that’s even tougher, since it has very few of the basic tools required for detecting and fixing bad meshes.

Then again, it could just be some random wackiness like others have suggested, and your best bet might be to start from scratch.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 04:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1073
Joined  2007-10-15

And, by the way, if Carrara is to be a serious modelling tool (which, IMO, it really isn’t), then they have to add some bad mesh detection and repair tools. I mean, at least have a “single point polygon” and “two point polygon” selection tool, with a count. As well as a non-planar poly tool, and n-gon tool, etc., etc.

If there really are stray/errant polys and lines, detecting and fixing them should be a two second operation. Right now it’s all guesswork.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1825
Joined  2004-08-24

Can you show any examples of a “Single point polygon”, .or a “two point” polygon ?


A “Vertex” is a single point.

Two vertices can be connected with an “edge”.

Three or more vertices connected by edges, can be filled to form a Triangle, Quad, or Polygon.


Since the user modelled in Hexagon,. then that would be the best place to check it for errors,... Ideally before exporting. 

In Carrara, you can select the vertex or edge and easily delete or dissolve them, but it doesn’t solve the real question of “What process created the problem in the first place”.


I personally find it really annoying to see simple models like this being built in hexagon, and imported into carrara, because it’s just so simple to build models like this in carrara,.
It would probably take less time to model this in Carrara than it would to jump out of carrara, and open up Hexagon.

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1399
Joined  2011-01-03
3DAGE - 29 December 2012 06:48 AM

Can you show any examples of a “Single point polygon”, .or a “two point” polygon ?

I agree this is a tough idea to wrap one’s mind around. I came across it in the LightWave training material that I have been studying. As soon as the words “single point polygon” were spoken, my brain imploded… wink

LightWave modeler does have a very cool “Statistics” window that blows Carrara out of the water IMO. It does indeed list a model’s 0, 1 and 2 point polys. No…I still don’t understand it… LOL

 

 Signature 

- Garstor
Australian-Canadian currently trapped in Texas (maintaining sanity with doses of Carrara, LightWave and PhotoShop)

My 3D art Flickr page for final or near-final images
My 3D art Flickr page for work-in-progress or experiments

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  287
Joined  0

1 Yes Im in the vertex mod room
2 Scissors has no effect
3 welded in hex before saving as carrara file in Hex and exporting as object from Hex
4 3dage may be on to something. if i bring the cursor close to that point it changes to the cursor that will select polygons but will not select. I’ll try building it in Carrara, but for some reason I just like hexagon.
That stray point doesn’t seem to effect the model that i can see, its just there
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for there help, on this and in the past. Without this forum and everybody in it I would be lost. Thanx again and a healthy and prosperous new year to all

Image Attachments
HEX_MESH.png
Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  238
Joined  2006-01-21

Hi,

One way to fix in Carrara;

Set the selection tool to Polys only,
Select everything,
Copy
Paste into a new vertex object.

That should eliminate any stray points or edges and may reveal any other issues.

If you go back to the original model and delete the selection you can see what was left over.
(Usual caveat about backups and saving the progress of course)

 Signature 

http://roguepilot.deviantart.com/
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=RoguePilot
http://www.ShareCG.com/pf/full_uploads.php?pf_user_name=RoguePilot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1073
Joined  2007-10-15
3DAGE - 29 December 2012 06:48 AM

Can you show any examples of a “Single point polygon”, .or a “two point” polygon ?

A “Vertex” is a single point.
Two vertices can be connected with an “edge”.
Three or more vertices connected by edges, can be filled to form a Triangle, Quad, or Polygon.


Andy, I’m not going to give you a tutorial in the basics of polygon meshes, and how various modelling/rendering apps handle them. I suggest you do some research and learn about the subject.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 December 2012 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Active Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  287
Joined  0

did what you suggested but that point or face persists. it is only there when i hide selections. the cursor does change to select face even if i have it set to select points only. when i go to uv it this is what happens. see image. Im going to chalk it up to poor modeling and just redo it. the model looks fine to me in hex. what thjat is in the uv room is way beyond me. multiple vertices occupying the same space. i selected the vertex and it selects the whole model as though the whole model inhabits the same vertex space.

Image Attachments
multiple_points.png
Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1